The Instructional Coaching Handbook: 200+ Troubleshooting Strategies for Success

[00:01] Announcer:

Welcome to Principal Center Radio, helping you build capacity for instructional leadership. Here's your host, Director of the Principal Center, Dr. Justin Bader. Welcome, everyone, to Principal Center Radio.

[00:13] SPEAKER_00:

I'm your host, Justin Bader, and I'm honored to welcome to the program Dr. Keith Young. Keith is an author, trainer, consultant, and leadership coach with experience as a school principal and English and math teacher in Colorado, Arizona, Puerto Rico, and he now trains and coaches administrators, teacher coaches, and school leadership teams around the world through his company, AKY Consulting. And he is the author with Angela Bell-Julian and Tamara Osborne of The Instructional Coaching Handbook, 200 Plus Troubleshooting Strategies for Success.

[00:43] Announcer:

And now, our feature presentation.

[00:46] SPEAKER_00:

Keith, welcome to Principal Center Radio.

[00:47] SPEAKER_01:

Thank you, Justin. I'm glad to be here.

[00:49] SPEAKER_00:

So, Keith, you and your co-authors have put together a handbook for instructional coaches, for people who are perhaps serving in an instructional coach capacity, even if that's not their full-time work. What problems did you see or what needs did you see in the field that prompted the three of you to put this handbook together?

[01:05] SPEAKER_01:

Well, over the years, Justin, we've been training teacher coaches, administrators, assistant principals, superintendents, assistant superintendents in how to conduct difficult conversations, how to conduct coaching conversations. Angela and I work full time doing that across the country and even across the world. Tamara works in China. I work throughout Europe. And we noticed some common trends when we're doing this coaching. People often asked us after the training, oh, I have a special problem with this kind of teacher, or I have a teacher who's not open to feedback, or I have a teacher who doesn't believe all students can learn.

[01:39]

So we noticed about a year and a half ago that there were some big trends in these, and we decided that there wasn't a book that explicitly addressed those issues that people kept bringing up to us. That's how we came up with the start of the book.

[01:53] SPEAKER_00:

Well, I think our listeners can certainly empathize with those challenges of kind of unique or unusual situations that we run into with teachers who just need different things in a coaching conversation. And perhaps we have kind of a standardized process that we go through for coaching, a standardized cycle. And yet we encounter situations... that are probably not truly unique.

[02:14]

As you said, they are patterns. There are things that tend to come up over and over again, but they may be unique to us as individuals. As a principal, I may only encounter this particular situation once or twice in my career. What are some of the big categories that you identified in the book?

[02:27] SPEAKER_01:

So the big categories, we actually put those into chapters. So we have a whole chapter on how to coach efficacy. In other words, a teacher who's lacking efficacy, a teacher who doesn't believe that they have control or power or self-influence over what they're doing. So how do you get them there? How do you get them to get some sense of self, to get them to feel like they have power over the situation that they're facing? That's an entire chapter.

[02:51]

And then another chapter is all about equity. How do you coach teachers who really do not believe that the students in their care can achieve the goals that they have to achieve, the standards, the curriculum, whatever they're facing? And then probably the most common one and one of the largest chapters is coaching academic instruction, which is usually the biggest area of need for instructional coaches and administrators. But there's all kinds of obstacles or hurdles that we've seen folks run into when they were just trying to coach basic academic instruction. So we have a whole chapter devoted to that. There's a chapter on social and emotional issues, how to coach that, how to coach care in the classroom, how to coach love, how to get that across the teacher that that's part of their job and give them some practical real life strategies on how to address that in their classroom.

[03:39]

Openness to feedback is a big trend that comes up when we talk to coaches and administrators about problems that they're running into with teachers. They're just not open to feedback. They just don't want to hear the feedback. They don't want to implement the feedback. So there's a whole slew of strategies on what to do when you face that issue. How do you get teachers to be open to feedback?

[04:00]

Lesson planning. That's a big one, especially instructional coaches and assistant principals tell us all the time that they're facing, like, I just can't get this teacher to plan. I thought I've walked them through planning carefully. How do I do that? So we give the best tips that we've used and that we've seen other coaches across the nation use. And then we have a whole section on how to be an effective team member.

[04:20]

Lots of coaches end up having to coach, especially new teachers and sometimes experienced teachers, like how to interact with other staff members in a team. how to deal with a challenging colleague, how to deal with a challenging teammate, how to be productive in all the different teams that we have to work with in schools. And then finally, we have a chapter on just some resources. We try not to build this book as another coaching model, but we do have some tips and tricks, some hacks for coaching, and we put that in the resource section. The whole idea behind the book is that you can take the problem that you're facing, let's say it's an equity issue with a teacher and you just go straight to that chapter. You don't have to read the whole book.

[04:58]

You can dive into that chapter and skim and scan for some strategies that maybe you haven't tried or you haven't tried in a long time and try those with the teacher. So we wrote it more like a resource book. That's part of the reason it's titled The Handbook. It's not something you're going to read cover to cover. It's something you're going to jump in with a problem that you have and try to come up with some strategies to work with a teacher on.

[05:18] SPEAKER_00:

It sounds like one of those books that'll get worn out because people flip through it so much and refer to it so much. Not a one and done, I've read it, now it's on the shelf forever, but a reference. Thanks, Justin.

[05:29] SPEAKER_01:

That was actually our intent. I don't know if you know the PRIM manual, the pre-referral intervention manual. It's a giant, giant red book. that all the co-authors and I have used over the years. And it's one of those books that's been republished several times and it gets worn out if you ever see it in a school because you're always going in there, diving in there like, oh, what do I do with this kid who's showing this kind of behavior? And it'll give you 20 or 80 strategies.

[05:53]

That was what we had in mind when we wrote the book, that it would actually be something that is used and maybe used and revisited over time.

[06:00] SPEAKER_00:

Because there are so many specifics that we could dig into, do you have any particular stories that then led into a particular tool or strategy that you want to talk about?

[06:10] SPEAKER_01:

One of the things we did in the book is at the end of each chapter, we call them implementation stories. So how did we or coaches that we know use these strategies to work with a teacher? And we didn't shy away from mistakes. There are times that we tried these strategies and they didn't work or other coaches have tried them. They didn't work. So there's success stories in there.

[06:31]

There's failures in there. there's just examples of this is what it looked like in real life and so you know some positive ones where it worked well and then somewhere it didn't work so well so there's lots of stories built throughout the book and then there's some reflection questions at the end of each chapter as well you asked about some of my favorites there are several in particular i think i love the social emotional instructional skills that's how we term coaching social emotional skills because We've had so many coaches and administrators and teacher leaders come to us with problems around coaching that with teachers. So some of my favorite strategies and stories are in that section. A lot of times teachers are told, oh, you need to have a good relationship with kids. You need to have a good relationship with kids, which we all know is true. But then teachers get stuck when the kid is not easy to like or not easy to love.

[07:19]

So what do you do then? And what are the specific ways that you coach a teacher who's 21 years old and she's standing in front of 17 year olds to have an appropriate positive relationship with kids? How do you coach a teacher who has a five year old that she doesn't care for in front of her? What are the specific steps? And so we give the coach some tips on some specific things to do. So there's very concrete strategies like, you know, Just lists and lists of them of how to build those relationships.

[07:45]

And then there's a whole section on not just how to build a relationship, but what are some steps to repair the relationship once it's broken or it's hurt? What can you go back and do? What are some things that teachers can do? And then the whole section on coaching care. There's concrete steps. ways it's not just a philosophy or a theory there's concrete ways to show care for students and so how do you do that i think it's very practical even though it is uh coaching social emotional skills can be esoteric can be philosophical we have some practical strategies to make it real in a real life classroom i think that's one of my favorite pieces

[08:22] SPEAKER_00:

Well, I'm struck by the power of just breaking things down. Like even as I look at the first chapter where you have, you know, 20 odd strategies on coaching for efficacy, you know, teaching is such a complex job. There's so much to it. It's so intense when you're teaching. It's pretty overwhelming. And I think...

[08:39]

Everybody believes that they're doing the best that they can and getting people to see what they could do differently to consider things that they aren't already considering sometimes seems overwhelming where, you know, for a new teacher where they're not really able to juggle everything, not really able to keep everything quite in mind yet. It can feel overwhelming to add even more, but I think you've struck on a great strategy of breaking the more down into the very, very small pieces so that people can see here's one piece I can pay attention to. Here's one piece. Like in chapter one, you talk about decreasing personal praise, you know, to maybe free up some bandwidth.

[09:12] SPEAKER_01:

Decreasing personal praise is actually one of the strategies that the research shows too much personal praise or personalizing praise too much can make the teacher dependent on your feedback or your judgment. So instead of saying, you know, I liked this or I love the way you did this, which I heard coaches saying, you know, just last week outside of Chicago. we encourage them to say, okay, try some phrases like the research says this, you know, there was this direct impact on your students. Be more specific about the kind of praise that you are using with the teacher. So they're not just dependent on you and your personal judgment, but they're more dependent on What is developmentally appropriate for the students? What is appropriate practice?

[09:55]

What is appropriate implementation of the curriculum? So just that subtle shift in praise, we've actually seen this can make a big difference in empowering the teacher and feeling like they have that strategies in efficacy because it helps the teacher feel like they have control. That said, We talk a little bit later in the book about the difference in coaching the novice and the expert teacher. The novice teacher actually needs, especially from their manager, they need a little bit of that explicit personal praise. Like, you know, I like the job that you're doing sort of thing. Whereas the expert is not so dependent on that.

[10:30]

The resource say they feel a little bit more stable in their job. So they're not looking so much for that. They're looking for some more fine-tuned things. We try to explain that when we talk about the different strategies, when to use it with, who to use it with, and why it might have an adverse impact or a positive impact.

[10:46] SPEAKER_00:

I wanted to make sure to ask specifically about retaining new teachers. In recent memory, there was a time when we thought of coaching simply as a way to help people improve, basically to get more out of the people that we already had. But now I'm seeing a big interest in and a recognition of the need to keep people through coaching, frankly, that we really have a staffing crisis in many schools, that we are just barely fully staffed, if that. And a big part of our interest has shifted from getting people to improve, you know, no matter how they feel about it versus toward a focus on getting people to improve, but also to not quit. Like our immediate goal is, please don't make me start from zero tomorrow with somebody else because this person quits. What do you see as some of the key considerations around keeping people, you know, when they're new, they're struggling, they maybe have other career options.

[11:35]

They're not sure if this is for them, but I want them to finish the school year for our students to have the best possible experience this year. How should we think about that question of retention for somebody who just really struggling.

[11:47] SPEAKER_01:

I think that my co-authors and I would agree with one voice that coaching has to empower teachers. And we want to retain teachers. We have to empower them. And sometimes we have to be very explicit. Sometimes we have to be nicely critical. And we have to work on things like what you and I were just talking about, efficacy.

[12:07]

Like, how do I get this teacher to feel like she has some control in this situation? How do I focus her on what she does have control over? over in this situation. So I would say that chapter right there on efficacy is a huge one for helping us retain teachers. The whole idea of giving them specific skills in coaching social emotional components of children and coaching the academic skills, we can't be inexplicit in our feedback. I think that is a number one takeaway, you know, from our book is like, how do I specifically coach this teacher in this trouble spot area?

[12:40]

How do I specifically give feedback around this skill that they might have never labeled or encountered before in their career. I would say those are key components of coaching and key components of empowering teachers, whether they are new or slightly experienced or expert teachers.

[12:59] SPEAKER_00:

So Keith, I'm thinking back to my first year of teaching when I was woefully unprepared to teach middle school and really was just surviving from day to day and had a ton of things to work on. And I'm thinking about some of the messages and the feedback that I got from my administrators and coaches that kind of helped me survive and helped me get better and helped me not quit and make it through that initial learning curve. When a coach or an administrator who's working as a coach is working with somebody who has so much to work on. There are just so many areas of growth and it feels like everything depends on everything else. What are some anchors or some starting points or some foundations that people can focus their early efforts on? As you said, efficacy is a big one.

[13:42]

I think you mentioned planning as well. What are some other key anchor points for helping people get some traction when they need to get much better at everything as quickly as possible?

[13:52] SPEAKER_01:

I think many of us, you included, and I faced the same thing when I was a new teacher, do value and gain a great deal from coaching around lesson planning. One of the first things I usually ask, and I'm in about a thousand to twelve hundred classrooms a year across the nation. So when I'm working with a coach or with an administrator, we go in and we observe kind of everything is a need in the classroom from the perspective of the students and the teacher. First, we ask, OK, is this a management issue? Is this a classroom management issue or is this an academic issue? And it may be both.

[14:25]

But if it's a classroom management issue, the teacher can't move through the lesson. The teacher can't engage all of the students. the students are not on any kind of academic task, then that has to be priority. There has to be a priority there. And the teacher has to be shown how to do that in some, you know, simple steps. You know, you open our book and you look at the chapter on social emotional skills.

[14:45]

We talk about breaking it down into steps. What's the first thing you need to do? The second thing, the third thing. So I would say that's the number one priority. Are the students safe? Can the students and the teacher proceed through a basic lesson, whether that's a 20-minute direct instruction or that's a lab experience?

[15:04]

What's going on? And the teacher has to be able to get their head wrapped around that first in order for there to be any movement forward on the academics. And then my experience has been with some thorough lesson planning, you can start to get more at okay, what's the level of thinking that the students are actually producing as a result of what you're doing or trying to do in the classroom? And so we talk about pulling in student work. We talk about how the coach and the administrator might do a think aloud during the lesson planning. A lot of coaches I work with, they'll say, well, I co-planned with the teacher or I led the teacher in lesson planning.

[15:39]

And then when I watch them do it, they're not articulating their thinking. In other words, there's a whole lot of stuff going on in the coach's head or the administrator's head that they're not saying out loud. Why are you all of a sudden saying, well, I need this extension activity? Well, you're saying I need this extension activity just in case I finish early and I need to toss something to those high performers to keep them productively working while I reteach this concept. That's something a lot of times a pro knows. But if you don't articulate your thoughts about why you're putting out there.

[16:08]

then it's a little bit harder for a struggling teacher to grab hold of. That's actually one of our strategies in that section on coaching teacher lesson planning. And I'm a big advocate of that one. And so every time I even slightly suggest that the coaches, they latch onto that one and they start accelerating and getting their teachers to co-plan successfully or to plan successfully with them.

[16:30] SPEAKER_00:

So doing that work together, but also explaining your thinking as you make planning decisions with the teacher saying, here's why we're doing that. Here's why I would want to think about this. And then talk to me a little bit, if you could, about the kind of gradual release of responsibility aspect, because we don't want to make people dependent. forever. Like we want each of our coaching interactions to foster independence and to foster that kind of professional repertoire toward development. What are some strategies that you recommend for helping people take on that independence?

[17:00]

Because it can, in a way, having a coach is great, but it can also, you know, make people a little bit over-reliant, you know, please send me resources for my next unit. I haven't even tried yet kind of thing.

[17:11] SPEAKER_01:

Exactly. Justin, that question is fun because it hits on another one of my favorite strategies, and it's in the chapter on coaching lesson planning. So lots of coaches we know and lots of administrators we know, and I did this when I was an administrator, will keep a struggling teacher in this intensive cycle for a whole year, you know. This guy's got great energy and I'm just going to coach the heck out of him. He's going to make it. Sometimes they do.

[17:33]

Sometimes they don't. We experimented a lot with this. And so we did these intensive coaching cycles that were two weeks long, four weeks long, eight weeks long, a year long. And what we found is with some really careful planning on behalf of the teacher leader, you should be able to see some results in, you know, between four and eight weeks. If you're not seeing some results, like the teacher can do it on their own within four to eight weeks. you probably need to move out of that and to move into some other strategy.

[18:02]

We give some tips on how to do the co-planning with the teacher and doing the things like the think aloud that we just talked about and how frequent maybe they need to be in the classroom and be working with the teacher during that four to eight week cycle. And we call it intensive coaching use, ICU, because it's like intensive care in a hospital. It's supposed to be short term. You usually don't go to intensive care for a year. You go to intensive care for a short period of time. And that's how we see it.

[18:27]

And that's how we try to help coaches and administrators view it over the years. Sometimes the coach or the administrator needs to tighten up what they're doing in that co-planning. Sometimes they just need to drop that co-planning after a while if they're not seeing some results. And then sometimes we found like, let's say I'm working in elementary school and I'm doing some intensive coaching with a teacher on reading and I finished this eight week cycle and I've released the responsibility, like you said. And they're showing some success and they've got it. But then I go in and I start observing them in math and they're doing some of the same old practices.

[19:00]

We're really clear. Don't freak out. If it worked in the first cycle, it's going to work in the second cycle. Just shift it over to math and do another cycle there. Because sometimes a struggling teacher doesn't transfer all those skills that they show in one setting. They don't transfer them to another setting.

[19:14]

So we try to give the teacher coaches a lot of tips like that in order to make that intensive coaching more productive. Even administrators, we've worked with administrators on this and we've worked with teacher coaches on this. They were thinking about letting go of a teacher because they were struggling so much. And then they put them through this cycle and they see some success. And then all of a sudden they're not a candidate for release. They're a teacher they want to keep because they've done this very thorough intensive coaching with them.

[19:40] SPEAKER_00:

I think that's so gratifying to see that growth and to see your own belief about whether a teacher is going to make it or not, whether it's going to be a good idea to keep them on or not, like to see that switch flip in your own mind.

[19:51] SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I was sitting with an administrator. So there was this administrator, elementary school administrator in Bakersfield, California. she was experimenting with this intensive coaching use, which I just described to you. And she had a second grade teacher. This second grade teacher was not a difficult teacher, but she was a very experienced teacher and she struggled. She struggled a great deal.

[20:11]

And so this was the end of the cycle. And I was observing the principal, you know, coach the teacher. And so the teacher and I were just chatting afterwards and, And the principal had done an excellent job and so had the teacher. And the teacher told me, she goes, oh, I'm so glad my principal used this with me. I said, what do you mean? She goes, Keith, I don't think you understand.

[20:30]

I sat in all that training for all those years and I just didn't understand what they were trying to say. But then she broke it down and she showed me step-by-step exactly what I needed to do. She goes, I feel so strong now. I feel so powerful. I couldn't have put those words in her mouth. I was just so impressed.

[20:44]

Here is a lady who had been teaching for years and did not feel successful and knew she wasn't successful. And all of a sudden, with some intensive planning, the principal had bumped her up to the next level. It was very exciting to see. Not a new teacher at all. This had been...

[21:00]

No, she was very experienced and she wasn't difficult either. So sometimes you have that. It's not always the difficult teacher that's pushing back. It's just that they didn't understand it in a whole group or a small group set and they needed one-on-one work.

[21:13] SPEAKER_00:

Well, Keith, I wanted to ask a little bit more, if I could, about principals playing the coach role, because at the Principal Center, we talk about the boss role, the coach role, and the leader role, and how sometimes we have to kind of switch hats, depending on what the person needs, if they need us to serve as a coach, or if they need us to be a little bit more directive, you know, we might be shifting between different roles. And from a practical standpoint, not all schools have full-time instructional coaches or able to bring people in from the outside. So sometimes we're it, right? If you're the principal, you're also sometimes the custodian, sometimes the bus driver, sometimes filling in wherever it's needed. And I think one of the most common places where we do have to fill in is as a coach, even if that's a difficult kind of dual role for us to play. So keeping in mind principals' evaluative responsibilities in particular, What advice do you have for coaching teachers when you're officially also the boss?

[22:08] SPEAKER_01:

We are very interested in this topic, and we address it right up in the introduction of our book when we talk about the research. We are big advocates of situational leadership, just like you said. An administrator, sometimes you need to be the boss. Sometimes you need to be the coach. Sometimes you just need to be the team member. You really do need to switch roles, and we're huge advocates of that.

[22:25]

Even the coach switching roles. And we work in a lot of schools. We work in schools that are, you know, urban schools of 3000 students. And we work in schools where it's a one woman show. She's the principal. She's the coach.

[22:37]

She's the part time custodian. She's substitute teacher. So we totally get that. And we have a lot of those situations. So we would never say, oh, you know, the principal can't be a coach. That's just not been our experience.

[22:49]

The advice we give in those situations is just for the administrator to be very, very clear. Now I'm coaching you. Now I'm evaluating and supervising you. And just at the front end of the conversation, here's where I'm switching gears. If you need me to, I'll put on a baseball cap to show you I'm switching roles. You know, I'm being a different person right now.

[23:08]

I've got to evaluate you. And here's where you are. You're not where I want you. You know, and this is the hard conversation. Now, tomorrow, I'm going to be coaching you about that. So we think if the administrator can just be very transparent about when they have to move into evaluation, when they move out of coaching, that the teachers will catch it.

[23:26]

Just be clear in your thinking and when you're switching roles and tell and put it in writing, say it, say it multiple times. I've been in situations where I don't think when I was a supervisor, I don't think the person heard me. So you may have to say it. You may have to write it down a bunch of times. But most teachers, most time we find they'll catch it and they'll follow that shift and they'll go with you and they understand. They're also having to play complex roles.

[23:51]

Sometimes they're a little bit of a parent. Sometimes they're a teacher. Sometimes they're the leader. Sometimes they're the coach. Sometimes they're the disciplinarian. If they think about their job, they have to switch roles a bit too.

[24:02]

And so I would say just being explicit is the best advice and transparent and very clear. And if coaching is not working and you've got to move to the evaluation role, just say that. When I was an administrator, I had to do that a couple of times with some teachers. one of them always hear me and understand me? No, but I still said it to him. I tried to tell him very clearly, but you know, sometimes that's the best that you can do.

[24:28] SPEAKER_00:

I think that's great advice to just be explicit when you're switching roles, because, you know, sometimes we do want people to take risks. We do want people to make their own decisions. Like most of the time, I don't want to make a decision for the teacher. I want them to make it. But there are also those times where it's like, I'm not advising you at this point to plan your lessons. I'm telling you, you have to plan your lessons.

[24:46]

You know, I've had some conversations like that where it's like, clearly my advice is falling on deaf ears. My guidance to plan lessons is falling on deaf ears. So this is now a directive conversation where I'm telling you, do not come unprepared for class. And then we'll get back to coaching when you are doing that. And...

[25:02]

But yeah, I think that's great advice to just be explicit about which role you're playing if you're shifting roles. Because, you know, sometimes this starts to feel like a game to people where, you know, I call it the feedback sandwich, the fake feedback game where I'm here to give you feedback. So I have to pretend I have some good advice for you and you have to pretend it's good advice and pretend you're going to do it. And as long as we all pretend correctly, this can be over quickly and we get on with our...

[25:23]

other things that we have to do, which of course is not productive. It's a complete waste of time for everybody. And if we can just be clear about the roles that we're playing and focus on the problems that we're solving, we can really get somewhere. One thing I saw in the book that I wanted to comment on because I like it and because I emphasize this also is the five whys. Tell us a little bit about how you use the five whys process.

[25:44] SPEAKER_01:

Well, the five whys is just a strategy. We have it in efficacy because we find a lot of times folks don't feel powerful because they don't understand why they're doing it. And we actually give a story of one coach using the five whys is just asking why the teacher is saying this about the student, why the teacher is believing this, why the teacher is acting this way, why the teacher believes the student produced this way. And then just repeatedly asking that question again and again after each rationale that the teacher gives. Well, why do you think that's true? So the student doesn't study.

[26:17]

Why do you think the student is not studying? Why do you think this? And then we try to help the teacher frame that in terms of the things that they control. The teacher can't go home with a student and make them do their homework. So what are the things that you can control that you consider a rationale behind that? Or how can you influence that?

[26:34]

What are the things that you have power over? What are the things that you have control over? You have control over the homework. You have control over how you communicate with the student. You have control over how you communicate with the parents. You have control over how you make connections between that homework and what's going on in the classroom.

[26:51]

You have control over what kind of homework and whether it's a value or not. And so that's what the five whys is. It's just asking the teacher a series of questions. We describe that and we give some examples of that actually in the implementation stories in that chapter. And it's one way, it's one way that a coach might get at teacher efficacy. Again, it might not work.

[27:11]

It might not be the strategy that works. We're big on having a big, broad bag of tricks just in case that one doesn't work. What else might I try?

[27:19] SPEAKER_00:

I think that's a great combo, though, to ask why repeatedly to try to get to the root issue, but also to keep in mind the question of what can you control? Because ultimately we end up with things like poverty or just factors that are societal level and beyond our control, which is not great for our efficacy to just complain about things that are beyond our control. So, yeah, of the things that I can influence, what are some root issues that we can work on and some actions we can take? So the book is The Instructional Coaching Handbook, 200 Plus Troubleshooting Strategies for Success. Keith, if people want to get in touch with you or follow you online, where's the best place for them to go?

[27:54] SPEAKER_01:

Folks can email me at Keith at AKYConsulting.com. They can also find the book on Amazon or ASC.org. Either of those ways are a couple of different ways to get in touch with me. Well, thank you so much for joining me on Principal Center Radio.

[28:08]

It's been a pleasure. Thank you, Justin. Same here. I appreciate your time today.

[28:12] Announcer:

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