The Gritty Truth of School Transformation: Eight Phases of Growth to Instructional Rigor

[00:01] SPEAKER_00:

Welcome to Principal Center Radio, bringing you the best in professional practice.

[00:06] Announcer:

Here's your host, director of the Principal Center and champion of high performance instructional leadership, Justin Bader. Welcome everyone to Principal Center Radio.

[00:15] SPEAKER_01:

I'm your host, Justin Bader, and I'm honored to be joined today by Amy Dujon. Amy is national practice leader with Learning Sciences International, where she helps schools change the role of the teacher by shifting what students are doing in the classroom, and she helps school leaders transform core instruction and she's the author of the book the gritty truth of school transformation eight phases of growth to instructional rigor which we're here to talk about today

[00:41] Announcer:

And now, our feature presentation.

[00:43] SPEAKER_01:

So Amy, welcome to Principal Center Radio.

[00:45] SPEAKER_02:

Thank you, Justin. Happy to be here.

[00:46] SPEAKER_01:

So I know you have been a principal, and in your current role, you support principals in changing things in their schools, especially with regard to core instruction and rigor. I wonder if you could start by just telling us a little bit about where the book comes from in your work and in kind of the needs that you saw in the profession.

[01:05] SPEAKER_02:

Sure. So the book was sort of birthed out of a transformation that happened while I was principal of an elementary school down in South Florida. And what happened was we really engaged in some work around how do we take a school that is just on that brink? It's not that it's bad. It's not that anything that's happening is wrong. It's very traditional.

[01:26]

But there's so many missed opportunities. How do we then shift what we're doing so that we are getting the most out of every player in the building from the students to the teachers, adults and children alike? How do we optimize every moment that they're on campus? And so we really wanted to take a look at. the practices that were happening with our classroom, and then how do we shift those to meet the needs that our students are facing in this future economy that they're going to be entering in the workforce later in life. So that was really where this work began.

[02:00]

And we partnered with Learning Sciences International to focus on really developing new pedagogy that would make that transition for us to a more team-centered environment within our classrooms. So the book was birthed out of that transformation. It's really kind of my story of going through this really deep second order change and what that was like as a principal to lead it. Some of the pitfalls that I fell into that I'm trying to help other leaders avoid along with some helpful hints that I hope will help them navigate the waters as they too try to create these really rigorous classroom environments where the students are the ones doing the heavy lifting around the thinking and the performance and the teachers are there to support them and guide them along the way.

[02:45] SPEAKER_01:

And is it fair to say that your school, prior to undertaking this journey, is it fair to say that your school was doing, quote unquote, fine? It wasn't a disaster. It wasn't on the brink of being shut down. It was just that you saw a need to better prepare students for a changing world.

[03:00] SPEAKER_02:

That is very fair to say. In fact, you know, I write in the book about the end of my first full year at the school when I was walking classrooms and literally just looking there saying there's something missing and I don't know what it is. We could be doing so much more and I can't quite put my finger on what it is that we need to do yet. But I'm going to spend my entire summer trying to figure out what that is so that we can get better next year. So by all accounts, many people who looked at our school and looked at our data would say they don't need to change. They're doing fine.

[03:30]

We were good, but we were good in spite of our instruction instead of because of it.

[03:35] SPEAKER_01:

That rings a bell for me because I was a principal in a school that I think had, you know, a strong reputation in the community, but also had a strong community to lean on. You know, a lot of parents reading at home, you know, a lot of the things I was listening to the podcast that you did with my friend Jethro Jones on his transformative principal show before we started today. And just a lot of aspects of your story rang true to me. And you talk in the book about this idea of a pedagogical legacy. What is that? And how does that play into what we're talking about here?

[04:05] SPEAKER_02:

So, you know, I'm glad that you really brought that up. And I think that when we talk about that pedagogical legacy, what we're talking about is that, you know, teachers and students, we all kind of walk into our classrooms every day with this idea in mind of what it's going to look like and sound like, right? Where we have a routine, a practice, a cadence of how the day will go or how a lesson will play out as we're even preparing or planning for the next lesson. And so when we begin to challenge that, that legacy of the way that it's going to look, I'm going to do a review or some type of preview, and I'm going to follow that by some direct instruction. And then I'm going to give the kids a task or an activity that's going to get them to actually practice doing what it is that I've instructed them to do. And so when we begin to make changes to that cadence or rhythm in the classroom, it gets very muddy for teachers because we're undoing years and years of not only

[05:01]

behaviors that they've become accustomed to, but also the way that it's been ingrained in their head since they experienced school. You know, as I look in classrooms across the country and definitely in the ones when I was principal, it was no different than the experience I had had at that age. Right. And so when we start to undo that, we get into this idea of can I make the shift? Should I do it? Because it's so much easier just to keep doing things the way that I've always done them.

[05:28] SPEAKER_01:

It reminds me of this idea of the Lucretius Misunderestimation, which is this idea from ancient literature that kind of the best I've ever seen is the best there is. And I think, you know, when it comes to teachers' own practice, their own classrooms, and for us as leaders, we think back to our teaching and, you know, the best we've ever seen is not necessarily the best that can be. So when it comes to rigor, and when you're helping schools envision a higher level of rigor and a higher level of, say, student centered instruction than they have ever experienced before, what are some of the steps that you take to help teachers and to help school leaders really understand what's possible, you know, and not see their own high point or their own personal best as the ceiling?

[06:14] SPEAKER_02:

That's an excellent question. You know, I tell leaders as I work with them that You know, once you see it, you won't be able to unsee it. And it's that same notion that we can only lead to the limit of our vision. And that's one thing that we work really strongly with with our school leaders is creating this vision of what if. What would it look like and sound like if we could reach this desired state where it's completely student-centered, but it's student-centered around rigorous learning tasks and kids using that rich academic language. And they're the ones that are questioning and probing one another.

[06:45]

And so we do a lot with them at first around really setting that vision. Oftentimes, you know, in schools, I can say guilty as a school leader, you know, you create those school improvement plans and you have a mission and vision, but How often are you actually letting that vision guide your day-to-day operations and what you're doing? How often are we actually aligning our resources and our funding to achieving that vision that we've created? And the answer most of the time is really rare because It's not a shared vision that was created with the current stakeholders in the building. And so we work with them on creating this shared vision of where we're headed and what we're going to do. So that's teachers and leaders together doing that.

[07:30]

And then we systematically work through a series of pedagogical shifts and teaching them new techniques in the classroom and one by one and taking them through phases of implementation to get them very deep into the work. So that they see classroom shifting very quickly. And then we leverage those classrooms where we get evidence early on so that we can bring others around. So if you think about John Cotter and his around change, change leadership and just how do we get to the second order change we're working for? We start with that coalition of the willing. So we build that coalition very early on and then we leverage them to create those mid adopters or those second level leaders that will come on.

[08:13]

until we eventually reached the point where we have tipped the culture and everyone, you know, the majority of the staff, the majority of teachers, Everything that we're doing is aligned to that vision and driving to that vision. And then those who were kind of holding out and waiting, they eventually have no choice but to come on with us.

[08:29] SPEAKER_01:

Right. You've built the momentum by that point. And it's kind of undeniable that the change works and irresistible as, you know, a thing that's obviously happening.

[08:38] SPEAKER_02:

Which goes against what we typically think of as leaders, right? We typically think, oh, I'm just going to go straight to those people who are saying no and I'm going to demand and they will do this and this is what we're doing. and we let them suck the energy and the life out of the vision, rather than saying, okay, let me get evidence, let me build this case, let me turn those who will, let's work on those that are willing,

[09:04] SPEAKER_01:

go after those who are more resistant and that energy and momentum i think are so critical because you know if we look at why people are resisting a change i think it gets back to that idea of pedagogical legacy it's not that they necessarily want to fight us or don't think the change ultimately can work it's that they have a different focus on other things that currently are working And there's really like a loss process or a letting go process that takes place whenever teachers are changing their practice. You know, I think we often try to add things on, but the reality is we're going to be letting go of other things. And that's painful for people.

[09:40] SPEAKER_02:

Or what we make the mistake of as leaders is we don't allow our people to go through that almost like grieving process. So I talk about that in two phases of the book, which is the deconstruction and reconstruction and then the mud. And so as I deconstruct my current practices and I'm breaking those down and undoing them, that is a struggle that is hard for me. It's hard for me to let go. Right. But then as I'm and I'm reconstructing and reuse and beginning to use these new practices, I have that battle that goes on in between me.

[10:08]

Like, I want to do this. I really do. but it would be so much easier. It would save me time. This is comfortable if I go back over here. And so what we have to work with leaders on is how do we use that gentle push, pull and nudge, right?

[10:22]

That Michael Fuller talks about. How do we know when to push and when to nudge and when to pull people when they're going through that and letting them go through it at their own kind of pace and transition? I get a lot of leaders and teachers who talk to me about the chapter of the mud in my book and they're like, oh, That's that was so me. You described me. I was in that. That was my whole last year.

[10:44]

I was in the mud. And I tell them, you know, the thing about the mud is it's a really hard place to be. But you control how long you're in it. You have the power to pull yourself out of it. Just by not giving in to that side that says, oh, it's so much easier to do it the way I used to.

[11:02] SPEAKER_01:

I like the idea of a competency trap as a way of understanding where teachers are that, you know, like I'm good at what I'm doing and I'm not good at what you want me to do yet. So it is much more comfortable. And in the short term, it's better for my students if I don't do the thing that I'm bad at still and I continue doing the thing that I'm already good at. but that becomes the ceiling. So we've got to push people, you know, we've got to build that momentum to push people kind of upward out of that competency trap and to that higher level. And I wonder if we could shift into talking about some of the specifics.

[11:30]

So you work with Robert Marzano's group at Learning Sciences International on rigor, and I was enjoying your conversation with Jethro about learning targets and success criteria. So what are some of the specifics regarding rigor and alignment and things that you work with schools on and talk about in the book?

[11:47] SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Absolutely. So, you know, I noticed this as my learning deepened in this process of transferring instruction is that, you know, I took for granted a lot of times as a building leader that when I walked into classroom that the instruction was where it needed to be. Right. You know, the kids were engaged. They were producing.

[12:05]

Kids were, quote unquote, passing their grade level benchmarks and things of that nature were happening. But what I was failing to see was the big disconnect between the target and the task that kids were being asked to do. And so as I began as a principal and what we as an organization at Learning Sciences do is to really help them to understand what they're looking at when they're in the classroom. Right. So I talk a lot in the book about the four T's and that alignment. So the four T's are the target, the task, the talk and the text.

[12:37]

And so I really when I walk into a classroom and I'm walking classrooms with with other building leaders, I ask them to draw their attention to those four T's. So the first is. the target? What is the learning target of the day? And is it aligned or derived from the grade level standards, right? Is it, and what is then the complexity, the cognitive complexity or workload that kids need to demonstrate based on that target?

[13:01]

So if the target is written at analysis, my next focus goes down to the task, right? The second T, the task. And I'm looking at, well, what are kids being asked to produce? Is that task at that level of analysis or What unfortunately I see a lot of times is it at the comprehension or retrieval level where kids aren't actually even given the opportunity to produce work at the expected level of the standard. And so we go and we look at that target. Then we focus on what are kids actually doing.

[13:33]

And then we listen very explicitly to the talk that's happening as kids are interacting with one another, listening to those conversations. Are they talking at an analysis level? Are they questioning and probing each other for what, for, you know, how did you get that? Can you explain your thinking to me? Oh, you know, I see how you got there, but can I show you a different strategy that I used? And then they're revising that thinking frequently because they're learning and listening to others' varied perspectives of how they reached an outcome.

[14:03]

And I'm listening for the teacher talk. I'm listening for the teacher questioning. Is the teacher questioning at the analysis level or is her questioning or his questioning always at,

[14:14] SPEAKER_01:

simple retrieval or comprehension level often as administrators that's where we start in thinking about bloom's taxonomy or depth of knowledge and higher order questions we start with the question and we give teachers feedback on whether their questions are at a deep enough level and require enough of students in terms of the thinking required to answer those questions but You mentioned starting that analysis not at the level of analyzing teacher talk, but at the level of analyzing the target first and then the task, that the rigor has to be there at the target level if it's going to be meaningful at the talk level. Am I getting that right?

[14:52] SPEAKER_02:

You are getting that right, Justin. And so we believe in our organization, the way that we help to define the word rigor, like if I went into a room right now, Justin, and asked 100 people to write down a definition of rigor, I guarantee you I'd get 100 different variations right of what they think rigor is and so that's one of the things that we really do is we say okay so we're going to define rigor by cognitive complexity the cognitive complexity the level of thinking that needs to take place plus student autonomy so the student's ability to do that independently whether that independence is completely by themselves or interdependently within a team right a team structure so where those two things meet and they are perfectly aligned we have rigorous instruction taking place. So the target is an analysis. First, I have to ask myself as a leader walking into that building or as a teacher observing somebody else's classroom, where I'm trying to learn is, what is it that kids are expected to know and do and be able to produce right now?

[15:51]

What is that level that they should be at? Now, what are they actually doing? I go down to that task. I look in at the task and listen for them to hear, just like you were saying, That's where that alignment comes in. If the task and the target are misaligned, I got to give feedback right there because I'm not giving them the opportunity to produce at that level.

[16:10] SPEAKER_01:

Well, and any demonstration of higher order thinking within the context of a low level target and task is going to be kind of fake, right? Like I can pick the one kid in my class who can always answer a higher order question, even if we're doing a worksheet, you know, that's straight recall, you know, I know who's background knowledge to draw on and make it look like we're doing higher level work, but, but really it's not going to be there. For all students, if we haven't built that in to the target and the task.

[16:36] SPEAKER_02:

That's a really good point. And also, you know, thinking about in terms of, you know, making all students thinking visible. So we don't let any child opt out. So we talk about those teachers. I know exactly who to call on. But in these rigorous student centered classrooms, every student thinks that they're going to get called on every single one.

[16:54]

And so everyone is prepared to share and defend their thinking. until somebody persuades them otherwise.

[17:00] SPEAKER_01:

So the four T's are target, task, talk, and text, right?

[17:05] SPEAKER_02:

Right. And so, you know, we know that from the authors of the standards. We have a really tight partnership with student achievement partners who many people might know them as Achieve the Core. And they were some of the authors of the new standards, the college and career ready standards. And so when we, in our work with them, you know, we really dig deep into this idea that the standards changed But when they changed, when they rewrote them, they wrote them with these shifts that were in mind. And there's three specific shifts in ELA and there's three specific shifts in math.

[17:36]

And in ELA, which those shifts go across social studies and science and all content literacy, you know, one of those is looking at text complexity, right? So is it a grade level complex text that students are interacting with that they are having to access? or in text sets around topics. Are they accessing a text that is at an appropriate grade level? And so that's where that alignment comes in. Are they text dependent or text specific questions?

[18:05]

And we pull those four Ts all together around the text that they're using.

[18:09] SPEAKER_01:

So Amy, toward the beginning of our conversation, we mentioned the idea of changing the role of teachers in order to change what students are doing. And it really strikes me as an example here of shifting the definition of teaching in the direction of professional work. So what you're talking about here is a type of professional practice that is more professional than then perhaps a lot of principals are used to seeing their teachers as doing, if that makes sense, that this is more professional work than often we have asked teachers to do in the past. And I wonder if you could talk a little bit about how that shows up in the work that you're doing to support schools in increasing rigor.

[18:47] SPEAKER_02:

I think that the most important thing here is just the whole idea of empowering teachers and giving back to them the ability to be critical thinkers and critical consumers of what they're giving to students. Often, you know, we give them a textbook, we give them resources, and they feel they won't say this until they're kind of freed out of it. But they're very stifled by a scripted program or a teacher's edition that tells them, you know, you're going to do this, then this, then this. And so when we work with teachers, it's giving them back that professionalism to say, you must be a problem solver and a critical thinker. You have to know your standards more than you have to know the resource. You have to know your standards enough to be able to look at a resource and discern what whether or not that is the appropriate vehicle to get kids where they need to go or to get them producing at the level they need to.

[19:36]

And so I talk about in the book how after we began to make this transition and move to more student centered classrooms and we're really digging into content, this joy around the campus comes back where teachers are running in saying teaching is fun again. This is so much fun because every day is a problem to be solved. How am I going to get kids to fill in the blank, right? How are we going to get them? What if kids could? And so when we begin to shift and we start focusing on the right things and we're really focused on core instruction, that potential becomes unlimited of what they can create and put in front of kids.

[20:14]

And so I just encourage leaders as they are focusing on instruction to really focus on not necessarily the interventions and the enrichments, not saying that they're not important, but when we focus on really strong core instruction, 21st century instruction, those other things become less needed, right? I don't need as many interventions because I'm catching kids at the moment in core instruction. I'm providing them with opportunities to really hear what they're thinking. I'm not waiting until the end of a lesson. This vehicle, the work that we do here, and the work that I did that is talked about in the book, it's all about, you know, really...

[20:51]

again, optimizing everybody in the building to do their best and to focus on what really matters And that's the core instruction that's happening day in and day out.

[21:00] SPEAKER_01:

So the book is The Gritty Truth of School Transformation, Eight Phases of Growth to Instructional Rigor. Amy, thanks so much for joining me on Principal Center Radio. If people want to find out more about your work, where's the best place for them to go to find you online?

[21:13] SPEAKER_02:

Well, they can follow me on Twitter at Amy Dujon. They can also visit our website at learningsciences.com. Fabulous.

[21:21] SPEAKER_00:

Thanks again.

[21:22] SPEAKER_02:

Thank you.

[21:23] Announcer:

Thanks for listening to Principal Center Radio. For more great episodes, subscribe on our website at principalcenter.com slash radio.