Reclaiming Our Calling: Hold on to the Heart, Mind, and Hope of Education

[00:01] SPEAKER_00:

Welcome to Principal Center Radio, bringing you the best in professional practice.

[00:06] Announcer:

Here's your host, Director of the Principal Center and Champion of High Performance Instructional Leadership, Dustin Baver. Welcome everyone to Principal Center Radio.

[00:15] SPEAKER_01:

I'm your host, Justin Bader, and I'm honored to be joined today by Dr. Brad Gustafson. Brad is an elementary principal, author, and speaker who believes that schools can be spaces where creativity and innovation thrive, but only if and when we prioritize relationships and a relevant, connected pedagogy. And we're here today, Brad, to talk about your new book, Renegade Leadership, Creating Innovative Schools for Digital Age Students.

[00:41] Announcer:

And now, our feature presentation.

[00:43] SPEAKER_01:

Brad, welcome to Principal Center Radio.

[00:45] SPEAKER_02:

Justin, I'm a big fan, so I'm super excited to talk to you and probably learn more from you than you're going to learn from me, but that's okay.

[00:53] SPEAKER_01:

No, well, thank you so much for being here and sharing with us some of the key concepts from your book. And first of all, since you've got kind of an unconventional title, you know, we're not known in our profession for being renegades. In fact, I think that's kind of a screening. Ha ha ha! I don't know how you got in, but I'm glad you're here. We kind of screen out renegades in our profession.

[01:14]

It's kind of a fairly conservative, fairly straight-laced profession, I think it's fair to say. So what is renegade leadership and why is it a necessary and good thing in our schools?

[01:24] SPEAKER_02:

That was such a great observation there. Justin, you know, leadership, I think both of us will agree. everyone is a leader. Everyone can be a leader, whether you're a teacher, leader, principal, superintendent, it doesn't matter. We're all serving somebody and hopefully we're all serving kids. The concept of renegade leadership applies to how are we serving kids and for what era?

[01:45]

I mean, we have digital age learners here and our schools certainly need to reflect the possibilities of a digital age. And to do that, in some way, shape, or form, we have to reject or at the very least question the status quo. And that's where the renegadism comes in.

[01:59] SPEAKER_01:

Right, because we don't want to lead the students that we would have taught 50 years ago or that we would have taught 20 years ago. We want to lead on behalf of the students that we actually have today.

[02:08] SPEAKER_02:

That's a really great point. A large part of the book is based on that. If we just drill down a little bit specifically, one of the concepts just from chapter one is it's not that we necessarily have to throw out everything that has worked really well for kids, because some things are timeless. And you mentioned early on here, relationships matter. And I will go to the mat for relationships. I know our teachers, our team here, we know inherently relationships really propel all meaningful learning and meaningful change.

[02:36]

So we want to keep those best practices. And at the same time, we want to look at what do we need to do differently to serve digital age learners. So just to clarify, renegadism isn't about turning our backs on practices that are research based. It's taking the best and then exploring what else our kids need us to confront and really to learn.

[02:56] SPEAKER_01:

Well, let's get into that. Yeah. What do our kids need from us knowing that they are, you know, as you say, digital age learners? What does that mean? And what are some of the implications for us as educators in terms of what they need from us?

[03:08] SPEAKER_02:

All right. Well, at a really base level, You know, a lot of textbooks and pedagogy, for that matter, are from a different time, a much less connected time. So your teacher, your principal, your textbook really used to be the end-all, be-all, the answer. I suppose we were connected a little bit, whether it was a pen pal or something like that or just going to the teacher across the hallway. Fast forward to today and really kids and their future and even how they're gaming today. The world is so connected, and if education does not parallel that or reflect the beauty of this connected era, I think our kids are going to slowly detach and really call fraud.

[03:48]

They're going to smell a rat, and right now I think we're dangerously close to teaching this separate paradigm. So renegade leadership is the push. It's the encouragement. It's the how-to. Teach using a relevant, connected pedagogy.

[04:03] SPEAKER_01:

So if we're recognizing that we do live in a more connected age, that students will be deprived of some of the key benefits of that age if we don't update the way we approach schooling. What are some of the leading examples that you've seen, that you've been involved in? What are schools doing that to you exemplifies that type of leadership that gives students the experiences they need for the age that they live in?

[04:29] SPEAKER_02:

Sure. I think, again, sticking with the theme of and that I mentioned earlier, current best practice and applying innovation. You know, we might take the traditional I'll just use show and tell. That's something that I grew up with as a staple. And I think it's a real relational thing that builds classroom community. There's this thing called genius hour and 20 percent time.

[04:48]

A lot of people have heard where kids actually get to research and explore their passion and then curate it, present it in a meaningful way to them. Not meaningful to the principal or teacher, but meaningful to the student. Could be blogging, could be a class presentation, could be something different. But really taking that lens as an example. And we've had teachers here that have live streamed those conversations and presentations and connected with classes across the country. An example of a principal or myself live streaming a school assembly so that kids in your school who maybe don't do so well in loud assembly type situations, you know, they may have some sensory needs.

[05:26]

But having them connect from a classroom just via that live stream. So it's that connected mindset, just innovating around the edges to include all kids, get them connected. So it could happen in the school, could happen out. But just the concept is we're thinking above and beyond the four walls. There's a TED talk by the name is eluding me. He talked about crowd accelerated innovation.

[05:49]

you know, this dance phenomenon where people are posting, kids are posting dance moves to YouTube and then someone in China is going to pick up on those moves, apply innovation, make it even better. Well, by the time these videos are spreading and kids are posting more and more, they're doing some of the most incredible dancing that wasn't even fathomable six months ago. I think the same concept can happen in education where the learning and how far kids can go and how much they can actually own their learning, like deeper learning where they're owning it, they're wanting to come to school and That can happen when we connect our classrooms and when we connect our professional learning experiences as well.

[06:24] SPEAKER_01:

I think I've seen that Ted talk. He's talking about the incredible increase in what's possible. And the kinds of things they were doing in the examples that he gave were just mind blowing. Like you'd think they're professionals. And he's like, no, these are students. These are kids who have watched other kids on YouTube and then made their own videos trying to top that.

[06:44]

And rather than that being just kind of something reserved for the world's most elite professionals, it's something that with some practice that ordinary students can do. And that's a direct product of the connectedness that you've been talking about.

[06:59] SPEAKER_02:

Exactly. And to really hit the example home, the same holds true in our classroom. So if I see you leading a science lesson as a science teacher, I could see you empowering your kids to be scientists, researchers, and actually create, maybe it's a class blog again, showing their learning, or maybe they create a podcast demonstrating deeper learning for life cycle of a plant or something like that. I can take the best of your ideas because you're sharing them online. Maybe we're even connecting and collaborating across the country or across the hallway. It doesn't matter.

[07:28]

And then all of a sudden I up my student ownership because I realize what kids are capable of. And then my students are doing more. So this isn't about, you know, let's not be distracted here by the tech. It's really not about the tech. It's about amplified collaboration that can lead to just better and different thinking on behalf of the educators that are facilitating the learning with kids.

[07:47] SPEAKER_01:

I feel like a lot of these ideas resonate with a lot of people, Brad, but I feel like we also kind of all know someone who is the technology for the sake of cool technology person. And it seems like you're talking about much more of a leadership approach and much more something that brings value to students. But help us kind of distinguish between technology for technology's sake, which everybody gets kind of tired of. Everybody gets kind of tired of that person after a while. It's like, no, actually, it's a perfectly good activity with a sheet of paper. We do not need an app for it.

[08:19]

Versus taking advantage of the opportunities that are really there for our students.

[08:24] SPEAKER_02:

That's such an important question. One, really, what we're talking about here is pedagogy. I've heard people like Aaron Klein say, we need to lead with learning, not with technology. No, it just so happens, and I'm a firm believer that while we're leading with learning and relevance for our kids and innovation, a lot of times, The technology won't be far behind because that is a pretty relevant thing. The way that I describe it best in the book, I call it the renegade code. It's nothing flashy or fancy.

[08:51]

It's something every educator, including myself, can remember and actually apply. It's a lens. And the code stands for collaboration, ownership, digital connectivity, experiential learning. And, of course, we give examples how to. We talk a lot about the why in the book. I'm not going to go into that now.

[09:08]

But with those four things being our lens, we can achieve deeper learning. Now, I'm not saying every single lesson has to have all four. There are some times kids should not be collaborating. Maybe they should be working independently. I get that. Same holds true with digital connectivity.

[09:23]

We don't always have to be digitally connected. However, if it's a novelty and we're thinking, oh, my gosh, that mystery Skype that we did to learn some social studies standards four months ago was so cool. and cross it off the list like a checklist, I think we've drastically sold our kids short. The pedagogy should reflect the wonders and possibilities of the digital age. And sometimes, a lot of times, that might include technology. So the why then becomes, Justin, just to be really clear, giving kids opportunities to collaborate real-time, face-to-face, sometimes asynchronously or real-time across the country or even planet in some cases, increasing their ownership of the learning.

[10:04]

you know, amplifying their voice, how and why that matters. We talked about the digital connectivity and then really making it an experience. And the sniff test on the experience, I always say is if kids were driving the bus, would they choose to stop at their school? Would they choose to stop at your classroom, for example? And I hope we get to a day and an age where all kids would say, yes, sign me up for that. Bring me to my school because they care so much about me.

[10:30]

They relate to me. And I have access to tools that help me be an innovator.

[10:34] SPEAKER_01:

I love it. As Dave Burgess says, you know, if students were not required to come to your class, would they, you know, and thinking about that, not as, not as a way to be tough on ourselves, but as a way to really ask ourselves about that experiential value of our class, you know, is it really worth being there to kids? Because even if we can make them be there, they're going to get so much more out of it. If they see it as something that, you know, that is worthwhile as an experience.

[10:58] SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And I think our collective sense of urgency isn't quite high enough on that point, because in a lot of schools and states and districts, we feel like, yeah, kids have to come here. And things are pretty good overall, despite what you might hear in the media. Kids have some pretty good experiences overall. The problem is there are these things happening that aren't on everyone's radar, like online schooling, for example. We have that in Minnesota.

[11:25]

And it's gaining just a little bit of traction. And some kids do now actually have a choice to, you know, where they're going to come to school. And I'm not saying that's the reason that we need to be a little more nimble, but it certainly it needs to be part of the conversation. Why would a student, you know, we say all kids matter. We say each and every child matters. So how about the one who chooses to go somewhere else?

[11:46]

What was it about that? What could we have done differently to better serve them? You know, how can we get better even if we're pretty good right now?

[11:54] SPEAKER_01:

Right. Because for every kid that kind of votes with their feet and walks out the door, we've got probably dozens and dozens of others who aren't going to do that, but they're simply getting less out of their education than they could.

[12:05] SPEAKER_02:

Right. I have three kids, Justin. And really, this is why I've dedicated my life to working alongside an amazing team, an amazing district. We want all kids, not just the kids at Greenwood Elementary, but we want every single student on the planet to have this innovative experience where they can think differently, where they learn how to learn and where their passion for learning and their curiosity is ignited by the relationships and tools and pedagogy in their school. And we are not there yet as a system, but with so many hands on deck and conversations like this and as different books come out, whether it's Renegade Leadership or any other book, we are going to move the needle and we're not going to be satisfied with good because good yesterday was is a far cry from great tomorrow. Things are changing.

[12:55] SPEAKER_01:

I wonder if you could tell us, Brad, what does the Fosbury flop have to do with instructional leadership?

[13:00] SPEAKER_02:

Okay, so in the book, I integrated different renegade artists, leaders, athletes, business people, because we wanted to take a look outside of education what renegades were doing. So several decades ago in the Olympic Games, Dick Fosbury walks into the stadium. He's almost laughed out of there because his technique is so different in the high jump than everyone else's. Well, he ended up winning gold and winning it big time from applying innovation to his technique. So the parallel is, and I spell it out a little more in the book, by making subtle adjustments to things that we're already doing, to events and structures that we have in place, We can give our kids these championship caliber experiences and we can grow and we can do better and they can achieve more. So that's a parallel.

[13:49] SPEAKER_01:

It's an interesting kind of case study because the way I understand the sport of Olympic high jumping, traditionally people would jump forward over the bar, right? And that was pretty much how everybody did it until Dick Fosbury came along. And he would kind of run up at an angle and twist around and flop over backwards, right? which, as you said, everyone seemed kind of crazy. And he is not the world record holder by any means at this point, right? I mean, he did some good jumping, but it was actually what the rest of the field did in response to his innovation that really is his legacy.

[14:22] SPEAKER_02:

Right. And we continue, you know, I'm saying we, like I'm an Olympic high jumper, but athletes continue to get better and better and better. But he was a trailblazer. Pole vaulting is another example, but just the material used in pole vaulting, if you take data of world record jumps over the last century, you can see the marked improvements where the plateau shifted and there was a dramatic increase in improvement in height, for example. So I think in education, the same thing can happen as new tools are introduced. Achievement, innovation, creativity, instructional leadership capacity changes.

[15:00]

can increase just by virtue of certain things changing in the environment. And I would argue that connectivity, the fact that I can talk to you via Twitter, Voxer, podcast, and learn from you and then immediately apply that to my work, if not tomorrow, literally when we hang up the phone, that is a game changer. And if we're not tapping into that, then we're choosing not to do the new Fosbury flop or use the new pole vaulting equipment or the technology or amenities that we do have at our disposal to make a difference for kids.

[15:30] SPEAKER_01:

When I see that happening with so many specific systems, so many specific interventions and approaches, like, you know, I feel like maybe this is a regional thing, but I feel like 10 years ago, nobody was really talking about RTI. You know, maybe 10 years ago, maybe not 15 years ago. But in the last couple of years, just everywhere I go, everybody I talk to really is getting serious about their system for identifying and supporting students who need additional support. assistance and intervention and instruction, we're getting so much growth in the areas of kind of trauma-informed pedagogy and how we meet the needs of students who have been through some very tough experiences in their life and in their early childhood. And the pace of distribution of that knowledge and of what to do is really astounding to me that it seems like

[16:20]

When we were kids, there were new ideas about every decade that really caught on. And of course, people have always been publishing books and sharing ideas that way. But I'm just amazed at how fast we're seeing that occur. If something works, we're not just publishing a book about it and then eventually it'll kind of become a big thing. It really is happening even faster than that.

[16:43] SPEAKER_02:

It's so true. And I guess my cautionary tale is that with learning more about RTI, for example, response to intervention, that's really exciting. We can get better and better and we can really hone and refine that. But if kids are not part of that conversation and their ownership over learning, whether it's in school environment, the pedagogy we're employing, if that's not a predominant voice in the conversation, then we're doing the same thing we've always done. We're thinking the same way we've always thought. And maybe just making subtle changes, not meaningful changes.

[17:15]

So, again, I want to hit this home because I'm so passionate about it. Let's take the best of what we know about RTI, for example, and let's pair that and look at it through the lens of student ownership. And then what does that become? What might it become for kids and how much more engaged and motivated might they be to actually show up for the RTI experience in school if necessary? They are the primary consideration and driver of the conversations. It's easy to say that we put kids first.

[17:43]

It's a completely different thing to have them be at the forefront of your mind in every single conversation because I suspect we would not let the status quo get by so easy if we did that deliberately.

[17:55] SPEAKER_01:

Well, Brad, I really appreciate your passion for including student voice, for focusing on the needs of students so ardently and so consistently. And I understand you are the recipient of the 2016 Minnesota National Distinguished Principal Award.

[18:11] SPEAKER_02:

That did happen, yes. And I would be remiss if I didn't say, that's cool, that feels good. What feels even better is to work in a school where teachers and our entire team, parents and kids, are on board for making a difference for kids. And that's including amazing traditional practices and a willingness to learn and take on the role of learner. It's one thing to be a teacher. That's an amazing job that's commendable.

[18:38]

It's even better to be a teacher who's a learner.

[18:41] SPEAKER_01:

Just to give people a little more sense of some of the range of topics that you cover in the book, what are some of the specific technology opportunities that you talk about in the book? I know you've got sections on makerspaces and digital badges. Take us through just kind of a quick list of hits there.

[18:55] SPEAKER_02:

Yep, I'm gonna be a renegade in how I answer this. And I'm just gonna tell you, the book really leads with pedagogy, okay? So you're not gonna have a chapter on apps. You're not gonna have a chapter on drones, okay? Now, those things are in the book, but it's really looking at things through the lens of, for example, student ownership. And what does that mean?

[19:14]

Experiential learning. I will say one of the things that really surprised me and I'm really pleased about it is when all was said and done, we have more than 30 educators from across the country who lent their voice, their story, their how-to, their experience, some of their failures and challenges to this book. So maybe this is almost sharing too much, but I will sit and read this and I'm like, oh, my gosh, this is so cool. Not because of anything I've written, but just the fact that I can learn from all these amazing people in a relatively short amount of time. So I don't mean to like dodge the question, but I just really want to emphasize people will get their share of technology in the book. But it really does lead with learning and thinking differently about how we want to make a difference for kids.

[20:00]

And primarily that's through pedagogy.

[20:02] SPEAKER_01:

Well, I think that's such an important sequence because if we get excited about one particular app or one particular technology, that stuff turns over pretty quickly. Companies go out of business or technology gets replaced or the person who is leading a particular program might change their focus. But I really appreciate the starting point of pedagogy and the commitment to leading in a way that meets students' needs, even as those continue to change.

[20:27] SPEAKER_02:

Right. So anytime we talk about technology in the book, and I try to do this in practice as well, if someone wants me to recommend an app, I'll do that for them. But we'll first talk about the why. So if you want to know, tell me a great podcasting app for kids, I can share, here's an app I use that contributes to real experiential learning. Here's why, here's the what, here's the how, and then the student ownership. So those are things that I will try to pair with recommendations for technology.

[20:56]

Or, you know, sometimes we do try things in a novel sense. Like our school has a fleet of drones and kids have done some pretty incredible mathematical challenges. There's the hashtag edudronechallenge on Twitter. Our kids, our staff started that and we probably didn't have the pedagogy understood, but we knew we wanted to be relevant. And if there's some innovative tool or career that might be possible for our kids outside of school, we don't want to wait a couple decades to figure out if we should pull the trigger on it. We want to have our kids experience it, learn it right here, right now.

[21:27]

If we're truly going to be a learning institution, shouldn't we be learning on the cutting edge and having our kids contribute to that dialogue? I say yes.

[21:35] SPEAKER_01:

So the book is Renegade Leadership. And I wonder, Brad, if you could just kind of give us, you know, give us kind of a summary now that we've talked about some of the specific ideas in the book. What does Renegade Leadership really mean to you in terms of how you view our work as instructional leaders?

[21:51] SPEAKER_02:

Ultimately, renegade leadership is about leading with integrity but disregarding the impossible. There are some things in education that seem like they're impossible for any one person, school, or district to change. But if we want all kids to be successful and experience an education where they are beating down the door and driving the bus too, that's renegade leadership. That's the environment that we want to create for kids. And what it's going to require to make that happen is focus. focus on the difference makers in education.

[22:21]

I have a quick story to kind of highlight that. I was a principal in a smaller town, and I'm a very competitive person. And somebody walked into my office and said, hey, do you want to be a chili judge at a church chili cook-off? And I'm like, do I? Do you know me? Absolutely.

[22:35]

Sign me up for that. And then when I show up in this church basement, I realize, well, I've never been a chili judge before. I don't even know what to do. So As I'm looking at all these simmering crockpots and different types of innovative chili that I never even knew existed, like white chili, taco chili, you name it chili, vegetarian chili. I'm eating everything in sight. Some of them I probably had five different times.

[22:56]

Some I might have even missed. I was taking notes, probably just to look official. At the end, you know, the judges, I was one of three judges. We kind of conferred and we awarded the winners. And it was an incredible experience. But I get home.

[23:09]

my stomach is in knots. I mean, I was hurting. My wife was not happy with me. The ambience of our home was suffering a little bit. She looks at me and she didn't even have to say anything. And I just knew right then and there, I can never be a chili judge again.

[23:24]

And yeah, exactly. And the reason I share that, I know it's almost like TMI, but I think sometimes we suffer from what I call chili judge leadership. It's hard in education to know what to focus on when everyone wants our attention for really good and important reasons. But if everything is important, what are the levers? What do our kids need us to do and focus on for them? And that's what renegade leadership is about.

[23:50]

It outlines what our kids need us to be to be digital age instructional leaders through pedagogy.

[23:57] SPEAKER_01:

Well, Brad, man, it has been a blast to speak with you, no pun intended, and have really enjoyed talking about the book Renegade Leadership and talking about what our students need from us, what kind of leadership they need from us. If people want to get in touch with you, learn more about your work, where can they find you online?

[24:14] SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, super. You know, everything's on my blog, bradgustafson.com or www.bradgustafson.com. The Renegade Leadership has a pretty extensive companion website.

[24:24]

So if you just click on Renegade Leadership from my blog, There are some audio outtakes where we go chapter by chapter and actually have some student voice clips. It's pretty cool. We're pretty proud of it.

[24:34] SPEAKER_01:

Well, thanks so much again for joining me on Principal Center Radio.

[24:36] SPEAKER_00:

Thanks, Justin. And now, Justin Bader on high-performance instructional leadership.

[24:43] SPEAKER_01:

So high-performance instructional leaders, what did you take away from my conversation with Dr. Brad Gustafson? Boy, I had a lot of fun in doing this interview, and I hope you enjoyed listening to our conversation. I hope you check out Brad's book, Renegade Leadership. It does get into a lot of different technology topics, but I hope you could hear both the passion for some of the work that his school is doing and that other educators that he's been connecting with are doing. Despite that excitement, despite the innovation that's taking place there, it doesn't start there.

[25:15]

And it's not ultimately about the technology or about some innovative project. It's about the type of instructional leadership that we exercise. And I was really grateful to hear, in a book with so many different ideas, in an interview where we talked about so many different innovative ideas, I was really grateful to hear Brad talk about focus right at the end there, that so much of our effectiveness as leaders comes not from just the ability to jump around to different things, to find new ideas. There are an infinite number of ideas out there in the world that we could bring into our schools. But I think the power, the leverage comes from the focus that we're able to exercise. And after we figure out what our students need, figure out what they're telling us is going to be helpful to them and what we can do as a staff, rather than continuing that kind of skipping from one thing to another, really diving in, really supporting teachers in deepening that focus, developing that focus, and figuring out how to make it work for students.

[26:16]

So again, the book is Renegade Leadership. Hope you check that out, and I will catch you next time.

[26:21] Announcer:

Thanks for listening to Principal Center Radio. For more great episodes, subscribe on our website at principalcenter.com slash radio.