Standards-Based PBL

[00:01] Announcer:

Welcome to Principal Center Radio, helping you build capacity for instructional leadership. Here's your host, Director of the Principal Center, Dr. Justin Bader. Welcome, everyone, to Principal Center Radio.

[00:13] SPEAKER_00:

I'm your host, Justin Bader, and I'm honored to welcome to the program Dr. Amy Bader. Amy is director of the Project-Based Learning Network and is a professional curriculum writer. And we're here today to talk about writing PBL units that address standards and that involve products that allow students to demonstrate mastery of those standards. Dr. Bader holds a doctorate in educational leadership and policy from the University of Washington and spent many years with Seattle Public Schools and the University of Washington as a teacher and teacher educator.

[00:48] Announcer:

And now, our feature presentation.

[00:50] SPEAKER_00:

Amy, welcome to Principal Center Radio. Thanks so much for having me. Well, let's talk about PBL and standards because it seems like a lot of people have the misconception that PBL is just for fun or PBL is what you do after your students have met the standard and you have some time to kill. Take us into the world of standards-based PBL a bit.

[01:11] SPEAKER_01:

Sure. So that is definitely a misconception that people have. And one other one is just that all or nothing thinking that you have to teach either all project-based learning from the start of the year to the end, or it's something to be saved for the end of the year. So, you know, one thing I work with teachers in as they plan is to start with the standards that they have to teach and to really shift their thinking that project-based learning is about teaching those standards and teaching the content through the development of the product. And that's really what project-based learning is all about is giving students a reason to need to know those standards and that content and they're developing that product in the process.

[01:53] SPEAKER_00:

So in a non-PBL unit, typically students would be demonstrating their learning some other way, right? They'd be taking a test. They would be writing a paper. They would be solving problems. They would be doing something that is kind of a traditional way of demonstrating mastery in a way that the teacher can use to kind of summatively assess that they learned what they were supposed to learn. Talk to us a little bit about how that works in a PBL unit.

[02:19]

How do teachers design projects or, you know, the product itself that students produce that demonstrates their mastery. Because I think we've all heard of products that seem to have kind of a tenuous fit to the subject. You know, like if we do an interpretive dance about math, you know, how much can we actually learn from that versus a product that's a little bit of a better fit to the subject area? Help us think about that issue.

[02:47] SPEAKER_01:

Sure. And first, just thinking about that assessment piece, one thing that people think that they have to drop altogether is that they think that in project-based learning there are no tests, there are no quizzes, and there definitely can be those other kinds of assessment. And the reason I encourage those to still be part of the unit is because the final product will not necessarily demonstrate all of the knowledge that students may have gained throughout the course of the unit. So you may want to still have quizzes to make sure that students understand the basic vocabulary, basic knowledge that they will build and put together and demonstrate as they synthesize their learning in that final product. So that's one piece. And the other piece is to think about how that final product can connect to the standards.

[03:35]

And one wonderful thing about a lot of the standards redesigns is that they will actually point you in the direction of what a great final product might be. So if you've selected some standards that say students will develop an argument or students will develop a model, and I'm bringing from the science standards here, that might point you in the wonderful direction of what a good final product fit might be for that unit.

[03:59] SPEAKER_00:

So there's this idea that students should have total choice over their project, over the type of product. And you often steer people away from that idea, right? That it should just be wide open. What have you seen go wrong when teachers don't think through or unit designers don't think through enough what the product should be and how it fits with the standard?

[04:20] SPEAKER_01:

So many things. So that's a great point. So there is this idea that PBL is completely student driven and completely student voice and choice oriented. And there may be schools and there may be settings in which you can build up to that place where students have gone through this process for multiple years in a row and they have that agency and they have that ability to make all those choices on their own. But the reality for many teachers is that you are held accountable for what students should know and should be able to do in the year that you're teaching or the discipline that you're teaching. So often, I think that teachers think that by giving voice and choice, that means that they need to give students complete control over what that final product looks like, or they give them a wheel of choice or choice boards.

[05:06]

That's been very popular lately. Whether or not that's for the final product or choices that they're making throughout the unit, you know that that remains to be seen but with that idea of free choice what ends up happening is that your students are all over the map on what they know and can do and the kinds of things that you're asking of them on those choice boards may not actually be the same grain size of a product so a student could write a quick little poem and it's very cute and it may have some of that key vocabulary in it and then your other students may choose something that's a lot more complex and a lot more work intensive. So your students end up getting finished with those products at very different times. So one student might take five minutes to complete it and other students might need multiple days. And then just the level of sophistication of what you expect in that and how you might assess it becomes kind of a nightmare.

[06:00] SPEAKER_00:

And I know you're writing a unit right now in which you have chosen some content to teach to students. You have chosen a product type that does constrain students, right? They're not doing a stop motion video. They're not designing a video game. They're designing a particular type of product. Tell us a little bit about how you chose that type of product and how it fits with the content for this unit that you're writing.

[06:23] SPEAKER_01:

Sure. I'm writing a unit for a client and I was thinking about what it might look like to develop a model that showed ecosystem interactions. And often when we think about models, we think about, you know, because this is the kind of thing that we were doing in school is developing a 3D model, you know, a model of a cell, a model of the heart or lungs. but in this case a model can be so much more than that and I was thinking about interactions and thought about games and how games can show interactions and can show disruptions and can show change over time and cause and effect and cause and effect happens to be one of the cross-cutting concepts that this unit needed to be around and developing a model and ecosystem interactions were some of the other standards that needed to be addressed so In the end, students work together in teams to design a game that shows ecosystem interactions for one of their choice from a list that I've curated.

[07:21]

So each product is going to be completely different, even though they're all doing the same product. And that's something that PBL teachers can look forward to, is designing products with that level of attention to the standards as well as with that variety.

[07:37] SPEAKER_00:

So there's choice built in, but you've set it up so that the products are commensurate in scope. As you said, it's not some students are done in five minutes because they wrote a poem and other students take weeks and weeks because they need clay and, you know, a giant poster board and all these different things that are going to take lots of time. Talk to us about the assessment side of that. How does how the teacher will assess student learning from the final project and the final product factor into that those design choices that you make?

[08:05] SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, so not only will students develop a game, but they also have to design a game description. And they have to write about how the science is evident within that. But there are also assessments leading up to that final product. So it won't be a surprise when students bring their game and play it. They will have shown their learning throughout with writing some claim evidence reasoning arguments, with doing assessments along the way, some quizzes. and things like that.

[08:32]

So that assessment's not saved to the end and the creation of the product is not saved to the end. It's done throughout the unit.

[08:38] SPEAKER_00:

Right. As you said earlier, it's not that you're not giving tests and quizzes. It's not that you're not doing the typical things that you would do to monitor student learning and assess where they are in relation to the standards. You're still doing those things, but you're building up to a final project that will also complete that puzzle. Talk to us a little bit about how the project itself completes that puzzle of assessment or kind of what role that plays.

[09:02] SPEAKER_01:

Right. So often as teachers, we may assess the things that we want to make sure that students know, you know, that there may be vocabulary related or just some basic content knowledge. Right. Really, what this gets at is the synthesis, the analysis. building up of that knowledge into something that's usable, that is a real world product, because, you know, it would be very boring for students to get up in front of us and recite the knowledge that they have gained throughout the unit. But what we really want to see and what, you know, we want to help develop are students that can put together their knowledge in ways that are usable.

[09:40]

And that skill and that ability is something we want them to be able to carry outside of the classroom and demonstrate in the world beyond the classroom walls.

[09:49] SPEAKER_00:

So having thought through some of those constraints that we want to build in to make sure that students learn what they're supposed to, that we can assess their mastery of the standards as intended, on the other end of the spectrum, I think we worry about getting 30 or 150 of the same thing. So how can we avoid that kind of opposite problem of You know, like, why did I even have students do a project if they're all just the same thing? How do we make sure that that choice that's in there is actually interesting, is actually meaningful? And I know you've touched on that a little bit, but, you know, if grading tests took X number of hours and grading projects is going to take 10 times that amount, you know, we want to make sure we're not just getting projects that are all the same just as tests would all be the same.

[10:33] SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, so, I mean, there are lots of ways to do this. One thing that I challenge teachers to do when they design a product is to do one example for themselves. And if you're working with a team, it may be that each of you tries to do an example product for yourself and see if you can inject a little bit of variation. See if you can think about ways that students might approach this and what pitfalls they may face as they complete this, what kind of scaffolds they may need. No one enjoys necessarily doing this, but everyone is glad when they have completed this because it helps them see the kinds of things that they need to prepare for in instruction and in the supports that they develop for students. So that's one way to think about it.

[11:20]

The other thing I like to provide in units is a common experience that you lead all students through as they're getting to know that final product. So in the game design unit, all students are participating in common experiences of playing particular games and reflecting on them. And within that, the product has so much variation, number of players, game mechanics, what the ecosystem is around, that there's a lot of choice and a lot of variation and every single product is going to be different. So you need to make sure that you're choosing a product that has those levels of variation that can be, I guess, applied and that will help as well.

[11:59] SPEAKER_00:

Let's talk a little bit about starting with something that exists already. Sometimes we have a beloved unit and we want to PBL-ify it. We want to upgrade it a bit, make it more hands-on or more interactive or build more voice and choice into it. And sometimes we find activities online that seem like they could be a good starting point, but maybe they fall short. So starting with some of those constraints or some of those kind of existing PBL ideas that are out there and having looked at lots of PBL ideas that are out there, I know, you know, there probably is quite a variation in quality, especially if people are buying things from, you know, lesson plan websites. What should people be thinking about as they're trying to start with things that already exist in some form but may fall short of what we're talking about here?

[12:48] SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, so the starting places are numerous. Some people can start with something that they have, whether it's a laser cutter or a greenhouse that's not utilized. Some people can start with, like you said, maybe a unit idea that they find online. And my biggest thing I would consider when you're thinking about this is just how does it fit up against the standards. So, you know, you can start with the greenhouse idea, but what standards will you be teaching if you go that route? You can start with an online unit, but you have to be very careful that just because it has those standards on there, you need to make sure that those lessons actually attend to those standards and that the product is aligned.

[13:29]

and then the other piece is just think about how you might contextualize it you know how will you make it work for your students how will you make sure that connects to a real world problem that you're pulling in experts or community members from your own community and how will it connect to students lives so i would say anything can be a wonderful starting place just try to make sure that that alignment is there among your standards your starting place your students and i think you'll get closer to home with that

[13:58] SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned place because, you know, we think about individual choice, we think about students and their interests, but there are also a lot of opportunities to tie in the unique features of where you are as a school geographically. And you've had the opportunity to work with teachers in a variety of different settings, a number of different countries. What have been some of the neat opportunities that are provided by incorporating place into the unit design and into the projects that students do?

[14:27] SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I always love talking to teachers about what is it that you can learn and that your students can learn from being where you are. And each community has something unique to offer. And it becomes second nature to us, and we stop seeing it after a while. But I also ask teachers, what's unique about your community, your classroom, your students, your school? Every place is so different, and there's something that can be learned. And it may be that the fourth graders always go to a certain place in your community and they may find it to be boring, but to people around the world, it's really fascinating to see what can be learned from being where you are.

[15:06]

So the place is important. Also, community members really do want to have a connection with your classroom. And whether that's to advise you as you're thinking about what real world problems, you know, need to be solved in your community or what needs there are, or whether it's coming in as a guest speaker or having students visit to that location or serving as audience members. There are lots of opportunities to make those place connections to your PBL unit.

[15:35] SPEAKER_00:

And in some cases, there are opportunities to even solve community problems, right? Exactly. Talk to us about some of those community-based problems or local problems that you've seen teachers incorporate into their units.

[15:46] SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, so, you know, we've had something similar where people were speeding down a street and the art students from our school spray painted a kind of a 3D crosswalk. I guess it was an optical illusion that made people slow down a little bit. And, you know, there are issues like that all around, whether it's about endangered species or solving issues with animal shelters or nursing homes and just all kinds of things that people can get involved with. and have students help solve some of the problems by engaging with their community and being aware and that really does create citizens that and individuals in communities that pay attention and are aware and not only are aware but feel like they can do something about it and that's what this is about that's what project-based learning is about is helping students remember the content more deeply helping them learn how to work with other people and helping create

[16:41]

individuals that eventually go into the world and think, not only I see this problem, but I have the skills and the ability and the agency to do something about it and not just let those things pass me by.

[16:54] SPEAKER_00:

And I'm sure our listeners can envision a school where kids are constantly getting out into the community, connecting with community members, solving community problems, solving real world problems, and just incredibly motivated and proud of their communities and excited about giving back to their communities. But at the same time, that ambitious vision can be very intimidating. So help us think about how to start, not necessarily small, but small enough to actually get something done, because you know better than anyone else how much work it is to write a good PBL unit. So help us think realistically about, you know, some starting points, how much time those take, and when people can think about getting this done.

[17:35] SPEAKER_01:

That's a great question because once people get excited, they want to do all or nothing. They want to go, you know, how many units can I plan for a year? Can I do five? Can I do six? Let's do a school-wide PBL unit. And I say, all right, I love your enthusiasm, but let's think about what is doable.

[17:50]

Let's think about what we can do and get some feedback on that. So I often suggest that people begin by trying a maybe three to four week project-based learning unit in their first semester or trimester. And planning that, building that, sourcing one and adapting it, whatever you need to do. And then trying those ideas out and getting that feedback from students, making it short enough to where you can experience success. And where it doesn't drag on and on because it will take longer than you think, because the first time through, there's just a lot to learn both for you and the students. And then possibly doing another project-based learning unit in the spring semester or in another trimester, depending on how your year is.

[18:38]

And getting that feedback and that really helps teachers not face the burnout. And then the next year you can build another one and add to that and then another one and add to that. But in the schools where this is happening and happening well, I will say it's not just a single teacher doing this alone. It's not a single teacher doing this without administrative support and understanding. So I really would encourage teachers. Anyone who is listening to this who is a school or district leader or maybe a teacher leader to really think about how to build a group that can go through this together and to think about the supports that teachers will need to make this a reality because it does not happen overnight.

[19:17]

It is labor intensive and requires planning. And once the teachers plan, it's really amazing to see how the students rise to the occasion and flourish in this kind of environment.

[19:30] SPEAKER_00:

And for leaders who are thinking about starting with a small group, how do you think about who is the right type of person to go first with this or the right type of team? Like who would you choose or how would you advise leaders to start with the right people? Because, you know, sometimes we look at the classrooms that are the farthest from what we want them to be, you know, the classrooms that are frankly the most boring, the least engaging. And we think, okay, this is where my most urgent problem is. How does that line up with, with what you would recommend in terms of where people start?

[20:00] SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, so I'm just thinking about the qualities of people that have been in our courses and PBL design work that I've done before. And these are people who are a little bit open-minded. Maybe they have some classroom experience. They may have...

[20:18]

familiarity with the standards. They're not like brand new first year teachers that there's just so much to learn in that very first year. And people who can see connections and maybe have that desire to go beyond just what their classroom has to offer and work in the community, build relationships and those that are collaborative. Yeah, those are the most exciting teachers to work with because they can see the possibility. And once teachers see that possibility, and once they can see what PBL can offer their students, and honestly to themselves, it is much more fun to teach in a PBL setting. I think that they get really excited and they want to go for it.

[20:59] SPEAKER_00:

So you said not starting necessarily with new teachers who may be overwhelmed, who may not have their feet under them yet, but people who have some experience, but are excited to try something new.

[21:08] SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, those seem to be the best fit. And then teachers that maybe are a little more reticent to try something new because maybe their students' test scores are actually really good and they don't want to try anything new. They're scared if they try something new, then, you know, They may fail. And that's really where a lot of teachers who want to do PBL but are a little hesitant, you know, get concerned is they are afraid to do something wrong. They're afraid to fail. And, you know, we've seen that teachers that do project-based learning well fail.

[21:40]

do get those good results and it may take a little bit of learning. There's a little bit of a learning curve there, but it's really amazing how much longer their students retain that information and the additional skills that they learn as well by doing project-based learning.

[21:57] SPEAKER_00:

I wanted to ask about that idea of failure or that idea of kind of bad PBL experiences in the past, because often when people work with you, it's not the first time they've tried PBL and they've had some sort of bad experience or something that didn't go right. What's typically the aha for them when something went wrong before and then they get it right and they have a very different experience this time around?

[22:22] SPEAKER_01:

Well, the most common thing I experience is that people have gone through an initial training but weren't really given the tools to actually build a project-based learning unit. So it's like they know what it is enough to know what it is, but they don't know how to build a PBL unit. And the second thing is that I think that they've heard of what project-based learning is, and they think they know enough, and then they plan something, but they're actually having the students do something where they're not supporting the students they're not actually teaching students they're just they have an idea and they say you guys figure it out we work in a group and go for it you've got this and they're like i don't know why it didn't work but that planning and the standards and the scaffolding those pieces were missing and they're like oh well project-based learning doesn't work but it's they weren't quite doing what students needed them to do as the instructors in that situation

[23:15] SPEAKER_00:

So thinking about the game design unit that we've been talking about, there is kind of a learning curve to game design and there's some scaffolding that students need in order to develop a game that's actually playable, that's actually fun to play. So the teacher is gaining experience having done this themselves, designed their own game, create the product themselves to make sure it works. How does that experience play into the scaffolding? Because for a lot of the potential products that students could create, like I could make a video, you know, do a PowerPoint. There are lots of things that students have the skills to do, like maybe a PowerPoint, but others where the skills are newer. Talk to us about thinking about scaffolding for a product like the game.

[24:04] SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I think the biggest piece, and I don't know that this would necessarily be called scaffolding, but one misconception teachers have is that project-based learning does not require the teacher to do direct instruction. And I do incorporate small bits of kind of just-in-time or direct instruction in the units so that students, when they have a need to know, are able to get that information in an efficient way and in a way that speaks to what they need in that moment about their product. So for example, when students are ready to do their game design, there is a little mini lesson about the fundamentals of game design and they use that to then make decisions about their own game. And I think that it's important for teachers to understand that there will be moments where you will have to instruct.

[25:01]

And that's okay. It doesn't mean that it's any less inquiry based. It doesn't mean that it's any less project based. It's just in that moment that need to know is there and you as the instructor can provide that information. Other pieces of scaffolding might be notes organizers, graphic organizers, templates, different kinds of ways where you can cut down the kinds of things that students will need to do in order to support their product development. So maybe they're not going to be, you know, creating every game piece.

[25:32]

Maybe you use recycled game pieces from other games from thrift stores. and they can incorporate those there. And a lot of people might not think of that as scaffolding, but it is a support that removes the creation of another piece so that they can get to that final product and really put more of their time into thinking about the ecosystem interactions, into thinking about the development of the model and how that model shows what we want them to show that relate to the standards.

[25:56] SPEAKER_00:

So we're not wasting time sculpting, playing pieces out of play and learning how to- we're kind of simplifying the product so that it focuses on the standards. So for leaders who may not be personally designing and teaching PBL units, what are some ways that leaders can become knowledgeable enough about good PBL to lead their teachers through the process of developing and teaching these units. What's a good task for leaders to get familiar with PBL? Even if, you know, someone says, my classroom days are behind me, I'm not going to leave my job and personally spend weeks and weeks teaching a PBL unit. But I do want to be somewhat hands-on with this. I do want to empathize with teachers and know what I'm asking them to do.

[26:43]

What are some things that leaders can do?

[26:46] SPEAKER_01:

I would say listen to your PBL teachers. They will ask you for time, and they will need that time to develop units, to collaborate, to source and adapt units, and not just during the time that you're not in school, but also kind of throughout the year. And getting into classrooms and seeing the kinds of things that students are doing and that teachers are doing in a PBL classroom, visiting PBL schools if possible, you know, really... Looking at units that are PBL units that are written and see what they're doing on a day-to-day basis.

[27:18]

You'll actually find that the kinds of instruction may look similar to what is happening in a typical curriculum, you know, and that students are reading. They are engaging in many lessons. They are discussing. But why they're doing those things is because of the product that they're creating at the end and not just to get to the end and take a test. It's so that they can develop that final product. Love it.

[27:43] SPEAKER_00:

And then talk to us, if you would, about the two programs that you have for leaders and then for teachers who want to write their own units.

[27:50] SPEAKER_01:

Sure. So yes, one wonderful thing that a leader could do is just to simply take a look at my PBL roadmap for school and district leaders and to see the path that one would need to take if they were starting a PBL initiative in their school or if teachers were and they were than planning to lead that. But I do have a course for instructional leaders that takes you through that roadmap and helps you develop an implementation plan with your teachers so that they feel supported. And so everyone is clear on why we're doing this, what it looks like, how we're defining it, because that simple language of what is project-based learning is, that's something that needs to be a common a common usage. So taking that course has been really great for a lot of leaders that have led it in their own sites.

[28:42]

So they're working together and they have a common understanding of what it is and how they can support it. And then the project-based learning curriculum developer course is for teachers that have their own classrooms who are designing or adapting a unit so that they can use that in their own classrooms and I take you through the roadmap for curriculum design for project-based learning units and you are able to start with your essential question and your standards and a product idea and then actually write the lessons to support that. So in the end you'll have a unit that you can use with your student.

[29:21] SPEAKER_00:

If people want to learn more about your courses or get in touch with you, where's the best place for them to go online?

[29:27] SPEAKER_01:

Sure. So you just find me on my website, amybader.com, and all the courses are linked there. And that's amybader.com. And you can find the PBL CDC course, you can find the Instructional Leader course, and anything else that supports those two courses along the way.

[29:47] SPEAKER_00:

Dr. Amy Bader, thank you so much for joining me on Principal Center Radio. It's been a pleasure.

[29:51] SPEAKER_01:

Thank you so much.

[29:52] Announcer:

Thanks for listening to Principal Center Radio. For more great episodes, subscribe on our website at principalcenter.com slash radio.