[00:01] SPEAKER_00:
Welcome to Principal Center Radio, bringing you the best in professional practice.
[00:06] Announcer:
Here's your host, Director of the Principal Center and Champion of High Performance Instructional Leadership, Justin Bader. Welcome, everyone, to Principal Center Radio.
[00:15] SPEAKER_02:
I'm your host, Justin Bader, and I'm honored to welcome back to the show my friend, Dr. Brad Gustafson. Brad is an elementary principal, author, and speaker who believes that schools can be spaces where creativity and innovation thrive. And he's the author of several books, including Renegade Leadership, which we've talked about previously on Principal Center Radio, and his new book, Reclaiming Our Calling, holding on to the heart, mind, and hope of education, which we're here to talk about today.
[00:42] Announcer:
And now, our feature presentation.
[00:44] SPEAKER_02:
So, Brad, welcome back to Principal Center Radio.
[00:46] SPEAKER_01:
Hey, thanks for having me. Sounds lovely, too. I want to be part of a school where creativity and innovation thrive, Justin. Sign me up for that.
[00:52] SPEAKER_02:
Absolutely, absolutely. And we know there are many forces in our profession that maybe unintentionally are conspiring to push us. in a different direction. So I wanted to start by asking what kind of prompted you to write this book, because, you know, I think we've all maybe been required to write a philosophy of education at some point in our training, but you wrote an entire book, not because it was an assignment in a class, but on that heart, you know, that philosophy, you know, that question of why we're in this in the first place, what did you see happening in our profession that prompted you to write Reclaiming Our Calling?
[01:24] SPEAKER_01:
Oh, that's an amazing question. You didn't waste any time on that one. So it feels when you talk about competing forces in education. So we have educators show up every single day and we have kids show up and these are incredibly dedicated and talented and creative and innovative people with lots of experience and background gifts that they bring. And then they arrive into the system. That sounds kind of weird, like we're talking about something different than education, but they show up at our doors and And they're oftentimes met with things that value things different than they're showing up with.
[01:57]
So, for example, things that are tested, whether that's math, reading or science. So the book isn't about saying no to testing. What it's about really is a stake in the ground for everyone who doesn't want to say no to everything else. It's really kind of a path and a story and a love letter to teaching where we can celebrate helping kids achieve at a really high level. and helping them be creative people who know how to relate to one another and have good character and integrity and where music and the arts and athletic endeavors and all the things that really, really, really do matter where those aren't put on a second tier just because we want kids to get a certain score on a test. It really shows us how, and it tells the story of other people in education, how they're helping that happen and they're facing that challenge
[02:47]
intention head on.
[02:49] SPEAKER_02:
Yeah. Well, I understand one of the bold choices that you made in putting this book together is that this is a book of stories, right? There are stories throughout Reclaiming Our Calling. Tell us about that.
[02:58] SPEAKER_01:
Yeah. So what I know about myself, Justin, is when I read a book, there are times where like when I was doing my dissertation, I just give me data and help me understand it. And then obviously you go through the steps to make sure you're making valid inferences from that data. But then there are other times, which is most of the time, whether I'm in my living room or at the beach or at the cabin, I'm where I want to read and I want to deeply connect and resonate with the text and the stories. And the way that I've noticed about myself is it's through story. And I'll give you a quick example.
[03:26]
I was reading Jimmy Casas' Culturize. And the amount of story that he packed into that book, I mean, I could go and name a couple of stories right now. That's the impression after a couple of years that they left on me. It's just sticky. So I found myself wanting to write something not only that mattered and was helpful to people, but something that they connected with on a deeper level and would actually remember as they move forward, just because of some of the emotions, whether it's, I think there are a couple instances people have told me where they laugh out loud and then a couple of things that are sad and everything in between. So the goal was not to just have like advice, like try this, do this.
[04:04]
It was more like, let's talk about something that happened to me or to a colleague or, to some of the main people in the book. And then let's learn from those things. And really, there's actually, not to go too far into this, but there's a story arc, which is really unique to professional development books. So there are some, I use the word character loosely, but there are some people like a dear educator named Mrs. McLean, more like a mentor, who you get to know her over the course of the whole book. And I think it makes some of the actionable stuff especially sticky because you get to see it also through her eyes and not just some elementary principal from Minnesota saying this worked or had an impact.
[04:43] SPEAKER_02:
I'm glad you mentioned the primacy or the importance of emotion. And if we're thinking about what drives us in this work and how those drivers can help us make decisions about where to focus. In the book, you talk about the four passions of our profession. What are those four passions and what difference do they make?
[05:01] SPEAKER_01:
I firmly believe that educators individually and collectively have much of the answer for any problems that we're facing. I think we're most equipped to get together and help make a difference on those. So the four passions actually tap into and celebrate the things that often, Justin, we're told directly or indirectly that we have to suppress or the things that are devalued for whatever reason. So the subtitle of the book will give away a few of the passions. It's hold on to the heart mind and hope of education. So the passion number one is heart.
[05:35]
Passion number two is mind. Passion number three is hope. But the first passion before even getting into those three things that the book really delves into, it's I call it the moral foundation of education. I'll give you a hint. It's not raising standardized test scores. Typically, that's not the answer people give when you say, why do you get up in the morning?
[05:52]
What drives you Deeply, it's thing learning, it's learning at a high level, but it's much deeper than some of the surface level stuff. And interestingly enough, when we take care of the passions, when we celebrate and leverage and honor those and don't don't apologize for them. It has the impact or the effect of also helping kids and schools achieve. It's really funny how when we take care of ourselves and one another, how learning and lasting learning happens. So those are the four passions.
[06:20] SPEAKER_02:
And did you say the first one is like a love of learning?
[06:23] SPEAKER_01:
Yeah. So the first one, I call it the moral foundation. So really, it's like when we get up and we go to work, we want to make sure we're standing on solid ground. And there's a story. I was speaking and we're just having a conversation and we're talking about analogies with teachers and one of them shared she said for me teaching oftentimes feels like an escalator except I'm not going down it as an escalator intended to function where it's helping me it's crashing down at me whether that be mandates or a lack of support from principals or just whatever the case may be and it was crushing that you could hear a pin drop in the room as she was sharing this because it was you could just tell how that was her perfect analogy and when I stopped and thought about it, I honestly think probably a lot of us could relate to that. So that's where the moral foundation comes from.
[07:11]
What if at the very least, Justin, what if it wasn't working against us? What if it was just neutral and we could do our thing and make a difference without having these hurdles and barriers that were actually almost destructive to the work that we want to do? And so at the core of the moral foundation, I call it transcendent learning or learning that lasts, because that's for us kind of the gauge in our school and with our team. One of the things we ask is, Is this for a moment? Is this for a test? Or is this for something that a kiddo can take with them that will help guide them and make a difference in the world for a lifetime?
[07:44]
And if we're being honest, sometimes there are things that are just for a test. It's not that those are bad, but I think it's important for us together, if we're really going to reclaim this thing, to have an honest conversation and say, what really is this for? And not kid ourselves and have the ultimate goal or pinnacle of the profession be something that's surface level and driving everything.
[08:02] SPEAKER_02:
Absolutely. Things that, you know, we want kids to take away things from their education that will stick with them beyond the test. And I remember reading Chip and Dan Heath's book, The Power of Moments, not about learning just for a moment, but having those experiences in the classroom that stick with you, you know, into adulthood, the kinds of learning experiences that kids will never forget. And, you know, in a lot of ways, I feel like it doesn't require education. Any kind of fancy program. It doesn't require any kind of fancy technology to make that kind of connection with students.
[08:33]
What does it take, though?
[08:34] SPEAKER_01:
I find the same thing even when reflecting on the book. People have told me it's very vulnerable, but it's also very authentic that this isn't rocket science. It's incredibly complex and difficult work. And we are in the middle of this. I'll just call it conflict. I think earlier I used the term tension.
[08:50]
But there's a lot of conflict in the work we do. And we're really on the front lines of where the world kind of crashes together, whether it's politics and different belief systems. And we have these amazing kids and different, you know, diverse staff members show up in our school. And there we are. And we're going to try to say just one thing matters. And we all know that will not work because we can graduate a zillion A plus students, but that will not solve the problems that will not rise us collectively to the occasion that we need it to.
[09:18]
So the interesting part of what you said or what I heard you say, Justin, is getting back to the basics of valuing relationships and not having to apologize for that, not leading with the question like this is a really small switch. Often when our school is sharing maker spaces or just some other really cool stuff teachers and students are doing, if we have visiting educators, they'll say, how does that help raise achievement? And it's not that they're trying to question what we're doing because they're very excited about it. They're getting ready to have to go back and rationalize it to their school community or to an administrator. What if instead of leading with how will that raise a test score? That can certainly and probably should be one of the questions, but What if it was, like, how might that make a difference in a kid's life?
[10:00]
How might that help set her or him up for success long after we're all gone and retired? You know, how does that boost or put a stake in the ground for creativity or the unique gifts and culture and background that that gives? I mean, what a novel thought to actually ask and lead with a question like that. You mentioned the Heath book, and I was thinking about their other books. I think it's Switch with the elephant, you know? But one of the things, just taking control of Justin, that I found really effective is mundane moments, just the small, small moments, nothing flashy, no batteries required, really no innovation, but just starting to see things through students' eyes a little bit more and pausing and slowing down and holding on to the heart, the mind and the hope and the difference that that space and mindset makes can change a day, if not a lifetime.
[10:50] SPEAKER_02:
Brad, you and I are both elementary people, right? You're an elementary principal. I was an elementary principal. And I think we have a little bit of an easier time of implementing that kind of whole child perspective as a school. It just kind of comes more naturally to early childhood educators and elementary educators. And it's more obviously part of our mission to take care of the whole child because the younger kids are, the easier it is to pay attention to those matters of the heart.
[11:16]
And, you know...
[11:17] SPEAKER_01:
Yeah, Justin, when they're crying on the floor or just having a meltdown under the table, you can, you know, conceal that as much. Not that those things don't happen at the high school level, but the show doesn't exactly go on if you ignore those things.
[11:28] SPEAKER_02:
Right. And I feel like those same issues, you know, sometimes they become higher stakes as kids get older, you know, when we're dealing with more trauma and things like that. But I feel like the other thing that happens societally is that students get pushed into the rat race. And, you know, they start to feel that pressure of, you know, if you want to get a good job, you got to get into college. And if you want to get into college, you got to do X, Y, Z. And it feels like it's not just us who, you know, are working with students who are pushing them in that direction.
[11:57]
There are these societal forces that almost. deny us permission to care about anything other than test scores. And even if it's not test scores that we're accountable for, even if it's their ACT scores and their AP scores, I just feel like that pressure to only care about certain things really is a driving force in our society. And I heard a quote the other day from some people who are discussing interests that high schoolers have and how, you know, you have to have all these different interests for your college application. And then like you talk to the kids after they're into college and like, so you volunteered for the soup kitchen and you were into horses and drilling water wells in third world countries and all this stuff. And it's like, That was just for their college application.
[12:44]
That really feels like a thing that we have created as a society, a rat race that we have created as a society in order to rank students and decide who's worthy of whatever college. And I wonder, you know, just for the two of us as elementary educators, but also for our audience of K-12 educators and beyond, what can we do to kind of not put students at a disadvantage in the real situations that they will find themselves in, but also kind of fight back against the rat race, so to speak? Any thoughts on that?
[13:12] SPEAKER_01:
I guess I have mixed feelings about what I heard you say, because sometimes I know that in my own life, positive habits that have formed and even changes in thinking have been a result of me maybe doing something out of obligation. So you kind of used almost voluntoldism or, you know, instead of volunteering, but kind of doing it for a college with different motives than we might hope. But sometimes when kids and even myself are exposed to things that are really helpful and can make a difference for the world, we realize the power after we go through the motions a little bit. That's just my kind of initial thought. take. So I don't think that's necessarily in and of itself horrible.
[13:48] SPEAKER_02:
Yeah, that it's a learning experience. And that I think the phrase that I remember hearing is that we believe what we do more than we do what we believe. So even if our motivations initially are not so great, it can be a good experience. Yeah, that makes sense.
[14:03] SPEAKER_01:
Here's the thing I wrestle with. And this really addresses the tension and kind of why I wrote Reclaiming Our Calling is And I'll use my daughter as an example. She's in middle school now, and she's really active with unified activities in her district. And that's basically where kids who have varying levels of disabilities side by side, arm in arm, are doing activities and athletics with differently abled and maybe more typical peers. And it's the most beautiful over the last year or two. It's just been life changing to me.
[14:30]
And I feel like I've missed so much by not having that on my radar sooner. But the thing that kills me, Justin, is she'll be doing these awesome things and making new genuine friendships. No one's telling her to do this. It's on her heart. But her homework either, you know, she'll come home and she'll rush through it and be stressed out. And then she'll go do these amazing things with unified sports and connecting and really making a difference not only in her own life and personal growth, but in others.
[14:57]
And then she'll have to come home later and do homework. And it's hard for her. And part of me just wants to have a dialogue with her school or help people understand, not that that would necessarily change anything or I'm not looking for her to have different expectations. But I think collectively, systemically, we have to understand that there are other things that are important that we might actually be crowding out by this overemphasis or at least not having the conversation, right? So my advice that's really actionable is, and this is a slow change type thing. It's more of a crockpot strategy.
[15:31]
It's when we have opportunities to have conversations just like you and I are and spreading it. And even with people who might not be in the fold yet, like you alluded to high school, it might be more of a tendency to really teach content because that's really what our kids are needing. So teachers are responding to what the kids are needing at that level. Right. But when we have opportunities to interface with people in different groups and who are different than us, just really connecting. talking about, what is the core?
[15:57]
And when we decide on our priorities as a system, as a family, and when those two worlds come together, what is the impact? And what does that look like for my daughter and for other kids? And is it doing what we want it to do? And I think in this particular case, I would say not quite.
[16:12] SPEAKER_02:
Definitely some tough questions about, you know, things like homework and competition. And I love that example of unified sports where, like, I would imagine the competition and the game aspect of it, the competitive aspect is a big part of it. But I would imagine it's not exactly the same kind of cutthroat that you would find in an elite travel team or something like that.
[16:32] SPEAKER_01:
Yeah. So if you go to my Twitter account, my pinned tweet right now, and it won't be like this forever, probably. But right now it's a video clip someone shared. And it appears to be a unified activity, although I could be wrong. But it's a team that passes the ball to a kiddo who probably doesn't appear like they're going to be starting for the varsity team, at least this year. But just in an act of love and encouragement, and the kiddo misses, and they get him the ball again, and everyone is cheering.
[17:00]
It's the most ridiculously cool thing. So really, I would argue from the outside looking in, it virtually has nothing to do But it has everything to do with who's in the game and who we value and why just seeing things differently. Like, am I going to value someone who gets scores lower on a math test? Am I going to see them as lower worth as a human being? And I certainly hope the answer is no, because I know as a principal and a dad, the answer is no. But in some way, shape or form, there is a push against that.
[17:30]
I'm not saying to eliminate competition school, but I'm just saying let's look out for one another and let's look for the different gifts and kids and staff members and people who are not part of our teams yet who could or should be. If that makes any sense.
[17:45] SPEAKER_02:
What I keep coming back to is this idea that the more sharply competitive something is, like the more the adults have figured out how to make the kids competitive against each other, the more we're getting away from what it should really be about for the kids. You know what I mean? Like that once this is a game that adults play through their kids. and not so much something that is for the kids, that's when we really need to go and look in the mirror and say, how can we make sure that this is actually for the kids?
[18:14] SPEAKER_01:
So again, my intent isn't to say that's bad, but what if it was about finding something in every kiddo that they could be deeply competitive with? Instead of saying it's all about soccer and math tests and reading, What if it was, wow, I see that you love art or poetry, whatever the case may be. You know, I see that you're gifted as a communicator, right? Or even in creating things in Minecraft, whatever it is. But I feel like we have this obligation and there's untapped potential in our classrooms today. in schools, and if the system isn't cultivating and mining and celebrating and developing it, that doesn't mean we shouldn't do it, right?
[18:55]
In fact, our team is deeply committed to doing it, and it's working really well. And I have reason to believe that kids in every school in our country are coming with gifts that possibly some of them are just being overlooked. We had a kid on our school who played the violin. And nobody knew he played the violin. And one of our amazing teachers was doing lunch with them and doing some leadership stuff with them. And we found out.
[19:18]
And just knowing that helped us connect further over the course of the year. Just little things. And I know that sounds like a basic example. Here's a confusing one for me, Justin. And I don't even know how I feel, but it just happened to him. So I'm at the grocery store.
[19:31]
And on the wall on the way out, it was the grocery store was celebrating kids, the top growth on their standardized test. This was in Wisconsin. Long story why I was in Wisconsin today. So I was thinking, is celebrating growth, is that perfect or is that the gold standard then? Because a lot of people are advocating for that, probably myself included from time to time. But if it's under the guise of celebrating growth, but if it's having unintended consequences and still growing, piling on and ignoring a bunch of other stuff that really should not ignore in our kids, then maybe it's not so good.
[20:05]
And maybe we should ask questions and have a dialogue about why that either should or shouldn't be on the wall. And I'm not judging because I don't know the kids that were involved, and I'm sure they're pretty amazing and put a good effort in, but are things happening when we do that on our walls, in our newspapers with regard to testing that are compromising other things that as a society that I think we would agree are also important.
[20:27] SPEAKER_02:
Yeah, I think that's a tough one and one to really think about as far as, you know, how much do we want students to identify with their test scores? Like we want all of our students to be successful, to have opportunities, you know, not to get locked out of things because of their test scores. But at the same time, yeah, we don't want to reduce them to that.
[20:45] SPEAKER_01:
To your point, what if kids hyper-focused on their achievement level to the point that we do or that we're kind of expected to, whether that's a self-imposed pressure or not? Would that be a healthy conversation for kids to have, to lead with some of the questions that we lead with? I know it's not a fair comparison because kids are not always educators and we have different responsibilities. So we're kind of tackling or talking about the tension and conflict and some little steps to lean into it a little bit more and to reclaim things. But you have the chance to talk to a lot of people in and outside education. Have you picked up on any themes, whether it's conflict or just things that are really hard for people that they're wrestling with that have emerged over the years?
[21:25] SPEAKER_02:
Well, I think, you know, one of the big tensions looking at, you know, life beyond high school is this whole tension between, you know, do we have to get every student ready for college? Or have we actually been doing students a disservice by saying VOTEC is dead? You know, none of that is a good option for you. So, like, that's a big one that I see that, you know, career and technical ed seems to be making a resurgence. And I think that's a good thing. And when we had the recent college admissions scandal where wealthy celebrities were literally buying their way, bribing people, hiring other people to take the SAT for their kids and just outright scams like that.
[22:03]
And I think it creates a little bit of disillusionment about college, but also prompts us to really ask, what are the paths forward? that are available to our students? And what is the best way to give students as many options as possible? You know, with the world being as it, you know, since we can't change everything, you know, that's one that I see. What do you think about that whole college versus non?
[22:26] SPEAKER_01:
I couldn't agree more that there are many paths to success. And, you know, if you have a kiddo who's passionate about woodworking and creating and craftsmanship, by all means, empower her from a very early age to further hone and develop that skill, right? In the book, we actually had a student or a former student at our school write the foreword to the book. And from kindergarten, I still remember this, and although that was many years ago, his teachers were celebrating some of his artistic ability, connecting him to authors who were developing and mentoring and coming alongside him to the point now where he's, I guess in a technical sense, he's kind of published, right? I mean, to put the foreword and some art in the book. Yeah.
[23:05]
what if his path looks a little bit differently than somebody else just by following that passion? I mean, I have no doubt that his message and his passion could change the world, whether it's making people laugh or bringing them together. So that probably tips my hand on where I stand on the college thing. But a second ago, you said something, it's barely on the tip of my brain. It was something about just doing one thing differently. It doesn't have to be changing everything.
[23:27]
And I think that's a big premise that It can feel almost insurmountable to think of everything we might want to change while also keeping the train on the tracks, too. I mean, just working with kids in a classroom in a school, that's a big responsibility, let alone trying to change it. So for me, just being mindful of the times where I'm on autopilot is really what I call it. Side story, sometimes I'll go out to my car at school and I'll hit the garage door button, Justin. Now, why would I reach up and try to hit the garage door opener in my car when I'm parked at school? Because my garage is at home.
[24:01]
Well, the answer is my brain is just on autopilot. So I'm doing some things without thinking, and that's just a habit I do at home. What are we doing at school that is kind of on autopilot, even if it's just an internal thought process or just something that we've always done? Because A, we need to be efficient, and that's really important so we don't go insane. But if we can catch ourselves in those moments like, Am I rushing through this when in reality this kiddo needs me to slow down and just see them, just to listen and celebrate and connect? I think those are really important things to be in tune with.
[24:36]
And that's not changing the whole world at once. It's just being right there in the moment.
[24:40] SPEAKER_02:
I think that's a really good one to notice students. I'm thinking about like the reticular activating system and the way our brains are primed to notice certain things. Like when you get a new car, you start to see that car, you know, oh wow, everybody else suddenly has the same car. When of course those cars were there all along, we just weren't noticing them. And I think the way that shows up in schools is we notice things about students that are relevant to the things that we're paying attention to. You know, we notice if a student is a great writer.
[25:07]
If we're in an art class, we might notice that they're a great artist. If it's not an art class, we might not notice. And I think for a lot of our students, the situation that they're stuck in is that they have realized that none of the things that they are interested in or none of the things that they have the potential to be great at are the things that we notice in schools. And what I'm seeing, oh, I don't know if you're seeing this at the elementary level, but what I see, especially as students get a little bit older, fifth grade and up, is they start to find that community and they start to find that validation on YouTube or elsewhere online where, you know, like I think we saw it a couple summers ago with Fortnite, you know, where suddenly fairly young kids who are old enough to play that game, but not approaching high school graduation by any means, would suddenly get incredibly good and incredibly competitive at something they were passionate about, maybe not the most constructive thing in the world.
[25:59]
And I remember educators lamenting how difficult it was and parents lamenting how difficult it was to pull students back into school mode when summer was over after a summer of playing Fortnite. But that showed me that students have the potential to get so good at something that they're passionate about if they're free to do that. And yet the range of things that we ask them to get good at in schools is, you know, by design pretty narrow. And because of that, we often don't notice all those other things that they're interested in and have the potential for greatness in.
[26:29] SPEAKER_01:
And what if every educator had that same leeway to dive into their passions, whether it's pedagogy or just connecting a personal passion to instruction and in the same way that a kid gets super excited about Fortnite. I mean, imagine that. And you see it happening. I mean, you see teachers and principals who come to work and are able to do that, whether it's by shutting the door and just crushing it for themselves and for kids, or if it's by just being in a really supportive culture. But when that happens, I can't help but think, as long as we're taking care of the multiple things we have to balance and be aware of, I can't help but think really good things are going to happen for kids, as opposed to someone who is not even like an educator now, not even close to being in their passion or just feeling unseen, unsupported, undervalued, hamstrung, if that's the right word. I mean, they're going to show up differently and kids are going to probably perceive that experience differently than the latter, than the teacher who's in Fortnite mode.
[27:26]
How kids see themselves as great and how they're achieving, if they don't see that same opportunity in school or it seems so disconnected from some of the other content, we have a problem. And it's no wonder they're motivated by other things. Not that they're unmotivated, but they're just motivated by different things. And that's part of the art of teaching is how do we close that gap?
[27:47] SPEAKER_02:
I was thinking about self-determination theory because that's right up the alley of what I think is probably the leading psychological theory of motivation and why people do what they do and develop self-efficacy. Self-determination theory says that intrinsic motivation comes from satisfying three basic needs for autonomy, competence, and relatedness. And in school, often students find themselves not competent at the things that we care about. They find that they don't have the autonomy to pursue the things that they are interested in. And especially for kids who are not on an athletic team, who are not in band. you know, they're just kind of, you know, what we might characterize as, as loners, the things that they're good at, they go and do by themselves or with people online.
[28:32]
And they're, they're missing out on that relatedness and that sense of demonstrating competence in front of other people, you know, and, and having the, the latitude to, to choose that and have that valued. And again, I think we, we have a range of things that we give students autonomy, competence, and relatedness in, you know, sports being a great example, um, But so many of our students who, you know, and we say things like, well, students who participate in sports or other activities are much less likely to drop out, which makes total sense to me because those are specific contexts where students can demonstrate relatedness, competence, and autonomy. But what about all the kids who have decided that they're not going to be on the football team, they're not going to be on the basketball team, and they're not going to be, you know, an FBLA, you know, competition winner? Like, how do we see those kids? That to me is what stands out from your comments.
[29:19] SPEAKER_01:
Yeah, and that's in the DNA of the book. One of the quotes says, the most innovative educators are often those who see school through their students' eyes. I mean, that's one of the most innovative things we can do, whether we use tech or not to do that. So on the moral foundation of teaching, just to circle back to that, I outline four things that are part of that foundation, but one of those core levels or layers is relevance. So it had me, when you were saying, just using your YouTube example, if kids have these skills and interests, but they're not able to, if kind of like Velcro, if it's not sticking to what we're asking them to do or the opportunities we're putting in front of them, there's just, again, a disconnect. But the relevance is where I, you know, to the degree we're able to facilitate relevance, it's almost like Velcro stickiness where, and by the way, it's relevance to them.
[30:11]
It's not what I think is relevant because I can think something is really cool and they might not have a clue what that is or really be as into it as I think. But relevance is such a big key. And I'm not saying everyone has to Fortnite eyes. I just made up the word, but Fortnite eyes every single lesson. But there is something to be said for what you said, where kids want to relate and they do value that. Whether it be with an idea, other people, there are lots of different ways to be connected.
[30:38]
But if we tap more into that, then kids will see themselves in school in the same classrooms that we want to or that we get to see them. Otherwise, they're just a lot of times just waiting to go home and do the things that they love doing. Why can't school be that place, Justin? Indeed.
[30:54] SPEAKER_02:
Well, let's close by talking about hope. So passion number four in the book, Reclaiming Our Calling, is all about hope. How does hope show up in the book? And what are some of your hopes for our profession?
[31:06] SPEAKER_01:
Yeah, I just alluded to one of them. And it's really just seeing school through kids' eyes. Because when we do that, I think we'll be really proud of ourselves for a lot of the work that we're doing. And we'll understand kind of like, I am purposeful in doing, you know, when I'm outside for bus duty, as I greet kids that I have hope and I feel validated because I know now why I'm doing that. Seeing it through their eyes, they get to see someone who loves them every single morning before their foot even hits the curb. And the same thing would play out in classrooms as teachers are kind of reflecting on what they're doing.
[31:36]
So I think a big part of hope is understanding and embracing what we bring to school and why we bring it. Okay. So from a relational standpoint, I think the other part of hope is really innovating and making the changes that kids are really counting on us to make. So we talked a little bit about relevance earlier. I think a big part of hope, for example, in that context of being relevant, it would be looking at the opportunities we're putting in front of kids and just having basic conversations like how is that setting him or her up for the long haul? So I mentioned virtual reality a little bit in the book and just give the example of Our school had Google Earth come out a few years ago and we put these headsets on.
[32:17]
And I'm telling you, the expedition I was on, it was like I was at the Great Wall of China, Justin, to the point where I crossed it off my bucket list because it was so real and awesome. But I was thinking like that night, is VR, is that the hope of education? Is that the pinnacle of learning? And I just kind of had to laugh at myself because I think the answer is no, right? So little nuances or shifts then, how might we have kids create those experiences for others and lead their learning. So we ended up investing in a camera where kids can actually make their own VR.
[32:48]
When we shift them into the role of creating content, that can apply to every single subject that happens in school. So instead of just consuming stuff that other people are creating, I mean, that gives me and that gives them great hope because they understand it better. They're ready to make it go viral in places that they occupy because they're really proud of it. And they don't always do that with some of the work that they're bringing home or being assigned. You had said, what is my hope for the profession? I think probably my biggest hope is that we collectively and individually would feel empowered to to live out our purpose and why we signed up for this great work.
[33:28]
And I feel called, you know, why we signed up for this calling because it is really deep. And if we just reduce it to a number or a test, I think we sell ourselves and our kids short. However, if we see value in things tested and helping kids learn, like I said earlier at a high level, while also helping them become in other ways, I think that's one of the greatest gifts that we can give them and probably our kids and grandkids. And through conversations like this, Justin, I think that we can realize that hope.
[33:58] SPEAKER_02:
So the book is Reclaiming Our Calling. Hold on to the heart, mind, and hope of education. Brad, if people want to learn more about your work or follow you online, where's the best place for them to go?
[34:09] SPEAKER_01:
Sure. Probably the best way, the hub is my website. It's bradgustafson.com. And there's some resources that you can check out for the book for free, just to peruse and kind of give you ideas about things that are in it. There's a digital discussion guide on my website with some bonus content that's not even in the book.
[34:24]
But I would just encourage people to take a peek at that. And hopefully, I mean, the whole intent of the book is to help educators thrive and make a difference for kids. So the resources on the website should reflect that.
[34:36] SPEAKER_02:
Well, Brad, thanks so much for joining me again on Principal Center Radio.
[34:39] SPEAKER_01:
Thanks, Justin.
[34:40] Announcer:
Thanks for listening to Principal Center Radio. For more great episodes, subscribe on our website at principalcenter.com slash radio.
