[00:01] Announcer:
Welcome to Principal Center Radio, helping you build capacity for instructional leadership. Here's your host, Director of the Principal Center, Dr. Justin Bader. Welcome, everyone, to Principal Center Radio.
[00:13] SPEAKER_00:
I'm your host, Justin Bader, and I'm honored to welcome to the program Dr. David Franklin. David is an award-winning school administrator, education professor, curriculum designer, presenter, and consultant. He holds a doctorate in educational leadership from California State University East Bay and serves as an adjunct professor of education for Colorado State University. He's a Marzano Research Fellow trained in high-reliability schools, instructional rounds, collaborative teams, and PLCs. And he is the founder of my favorite Facebook group for school administrators, The Principal's Desk.
[00:45]
And he's the author of the new book, Advice from The Principal's Desk, Five Pillars of School Leadership.
[00:53] Announcer:
And now, our feature presentation.
[00:55] SPEAKER_00:
David, welcome to Principal Center Radio. Thank you so much for having me.
[00:58] SPEAKER_01:
This is great. Thank you.
[00:59] SPEAKER_00:
Well, I'm excited to talk about the book and excited to hear your wisdom from not only your personal experience, your experience as an educator of educators, but also your experience as the host of what I think is the biggest and easily the best group for school administrators to just share their questions, share advice, share wisdom. In thinking about what made it into the book, this is a complicated profession. How did you decide what to focus on in the book?
[01:25] SPEAKER_01:
Yeah, that's a great question. And it's funny because I don't consider myself like an author. I never set out to write books. So it's been great to have the opportunity to get to. I approach school leadership in a very simplistic way. I never consider myself to be the best or the brightest in anything.
[01:42]
I like to condense the stuff that I do down to the most simplistic form possible. So I got started in writing and blogging with, here's five ways to do this. Here's five ways to do that. I started that about seven years ago, and it struck a little bit of a chord with folks. And so as I approached this book, it was just, here's five things that you can do, five pillars of school leadership, if you will, that can improve schools. And so it centers around just straight leadership, community, instruction, attendance, and school culture.
[02:13]
And That's all based off of my experience. You focus on those five different pillars, you're going to see your school improve in a variety of different ways. It was just really centered around the work that I've done personally and professionally and what I believe kind of everything kind of boils down to when you're a school administrator.
[02:28] SPEAKER_00:
We've got to get students to school. We've got to make sure they have a great experience when they're there. Build that culture. Absolutely. Talk to us a little bit about attendance because attendance is often kind of put in its own corner and treated as a secondary concern or a specialized topic. Our listeners may be surprised to hear attendance as one of those pillars.
[02:43]
Why is attendance so critical and what do we often miss thinking about attendance?
[02:47] SPEAKER_01:
I'll tell you, Justin, I consider attendance to be the number one thing that principals need to focus on. I bring that up because you could have the best teachers, the best curriculum, the best access to instructional technology. None of that does any good if the student is not at school. In the middle school I was a principal at, we had a 90, I think it was 92% attendance ABA and just wasn't good enough. And we had kids that were chronically absent. I had frustrated teachers and wanted to do something about it.
[03:15]
And so once we kick things in a high gear with our attendance plans, we saw everything else change, you know, and, uh, probably the best, and this is in the book, the best advice I ever got when I was a new principal, we got to shadow some more veteran principals and, uh, This principal, he's a high school principal. He sat us down there, about six of us. And someone asked, like, what's the number one thing that you worry about or you focus on throughout the day? And he said, my entire job is to get butts in seats. If I can get butts in seats, I let the teachers do what they do best. And I have never forgotten that.
[03:48]
And I wish I could attribute it to it. I probably could look up and find out his name because he deserves credit for this because I use the quote all the time. And that's what I started to do. I tracked kids down. I became like a sort of like a attendance bounty hunter. And like I would drive to kids' homes and knock on the door.
[04:04]
I'd be like, why aren't you at school today? I didn't do this for parents who called their kids in sick or, you know, for other extenuating circumstances. But It was the unverified absences. We'd just go knocking on doors. And what we found was, I'd say more often than not, it was a situation where the family could not get the child to school. Transportation was an issue.
[04:22]
They had to stay home and watch little brother or sister because dad's shift changed at the restaurant or whatever it was. And we found ways to support these parents and get in on bus passes or whatever. setting up carpools or like oh like these other kids walk to school they live down the street why don't you connect with them and you guys can all walk together we took out all the excuses that we could for the families who wanted the support for the families that were a little bit more adversarial to us and those do come up here we got very tough with them with our attendance plans we sat them down for student attendance review board meetings with our district I actually also brought in our school resource officers, police officers, to discuss with parents truancy laws. And it was very, very effective. And again, once we saw kids coming to school, then they can learn. So then all of our academic achievement went up and it was a game changer.
[05:12]
So as far as that being important, not only is attendance important, it's my number one.
[05:17] SPEAKER_00:
I appreciate the foundational role that attendance plays because yeah, like everything else makes no difference for the kids who are not actually there. Like we can improve our teaching, we can improve our curriculum, we can use great assessment practices, but for the kids who are not there, they get absolutely zero benefit. And often we feel like that's outside of our control. So I appreciate your strategies there. for taking some initiative and some control over what in many schools is kind of a frustrating and permanent problem. Take us into some of the other pillars where we can get some similar kind of leverage.
[05:47]
And one thing I want to highlight from what you said is you identified a problem in your data and an opportunity that accompanied that problem that average daily attendance could require. Take us into some of the other pillars and how they can help us
[05:57] SPEAKER_01:
Yeah, so culture, I've always found to be kind of one of those umbrella pieces as well, where that filters into your instruction, that filters into your leadership, that filters into how you work with your entire community. And I was just actually speaking at a conference this past week, and I was letting the folks in the room kind of think about this. When you drive to a school and you step foot onto campus for the very first time, As educators, we can tell what that school culture is like literally from those first steps in the parking lot as you walk to the front office. Do the adults look happy? Are they smiling? Are they saying hello?
[06:31]
Are they welcoming you and say the students who are coming in? Is there student work that is up in the hallways? How's the drop off or pickup at the end of the day? How's that going? And it's how we treat each other. I've walked through some cool school campuses where no one acknowledges each other's presence and teachers are walking past students and it's like they don't exist.
[06:49]
And I always thought that was weird. And on the other side of that, you walk through schools where everyone's saying hello and smiling and saying, hey, you know, like, have a great rest of your day. Or, oh, I know you had that soccer game yesterday. How'd that go? There's that acknowledgement and also that awareness of there's a life outside of the school building that we all have. And so how are we creating those relationships?
[07:09]
How much are we making everything that we do as the adults student-focused and student-centered? And as a school leader, that is vital. The focus has got to be on students. And so when you talk about the culture of your school, is it student-centered? Is it student-focused? Or is that coming back on the adults?
[07:25]
So that's a big one in my book. And then I would just say just leadership in general. The book starts out with just identifying leadership traits. And the book is really geared for newer administrators, assistant principals who want to go into being the principal, teachers who want to go into administration for the first time, and And it's just how do you communicate? How do you work with your staff? How do you work with your parents?
[07:48]
How do you work with your community? And how do you have that stakeholder vision where you bring everyone in together? But at the same time, you're also that school leader. It's your name. You are signing off on your school plan. how do you as a leader push forward an agenda that you know to be right?
[08:04]
So it's kind of that give and take, and it's that those listening skills and bringing in your experts and letting everyone know they have a seat at the table. There's a lot that goes into being a school leader, but again, five ways that you can do it is a lot easier than the hundred ways, which is some things that I've seen out there. And again, as new school leaders, You're underwater most of the time. I remember my first and second year, I came home exhausted every single day. I almost quit like 10 times because I was like, this isn't for me. I'm not good enough.
[08:38]
I'm making every mistake in the book. I was focusing on too many things. So focus in on doing these five things correctly instead of doing the 50 other things mediocre.
[08:48] SPEAKER_00:
One of the questions I see a lot in your Facebook group, The Principal's Desk, is this question of how do I know when I'm ready to move from assistant principal to principal? And often a lot of the advice that people share is very consistent with what you said about being responsible for the vision, responsible for the culture. And at the same time, a lot of people ask, how do you know when it's time to step down? Or how do you know when it's time to move on from...
[09:13]
And I think we're probably going to continue to see just a huge amount of turnover from jobs that are very stressful, from districts that maybe have cultural problems at the district level. And as people are seeking, you know, realizing that there are lots of opportunities out there and seeking places where they can have perhaps a lower stress level, maybe less kind of toxicity at the district level and a greater chance to have the kind of impact they want without all of the drama and the headaches. What might be your advice for someone who is not new to the job or maybe they're in their first year of the job and they're asking themselves that question of, do I stay the course here and hope things get better and try to make things better through my own efforts versus how do I know when working in this particular organization is just futile and I need to move on and find a place where I can actually thrive? I've heard from a lot of people who are debating that question for themselves. Any advice?
[10:03] SPEAKER_01:
I debated that question. So I was an administrator in two different districts. I went through that same personal journey. The first school that I was a principal of was a middle school that was in a, it was in a difficult neighborhood. It was a difficult district, a lot of politics, a lot of, it was kind of a mess in some ways. I stayed there five years.
[10:20]
There were things that I knew I wanted to accomplish there. And I knew that in that type of environment, if I could accomplish those things, I could go pretty much almost anywhere else and accomplish those things. And I wanted that challenge. And looking back, it's funny because I was not prepared. And like I said, a few minutes ago, I made every mistake. I had people mad at me every single day.
[10:41]
But at the end of my five years, we made some great strides at that school. And believe me, I left blood, sweat and tears all over that place, probably still cleaning it up, you know, over a decade after I left. but we did some good work there. I would say stick around as long as you can to accomplish some of the things that you want to do. It doesn't have to be everything, but accomplish the things that you want to do there. Build a team of like-minded people around you.
[11:06]
There's a lot of statistics out there where if you can get 25% of your school staff to believe in that shared vision that you are creating, that's the tipping point you need. A lot of people think you need a lot more than that. It's 25% and you can move forward. Now, as far as maybe thinking about stepping down or stepping away and going to a different district, once you start to have that thought, you've answered your own question. And so it's funny because I had the same question. I asked a mentor of mine this as I was thinking of moving from one school to another.
[11:38]
And he said, the fact that you're even having the conversation means nothing. to me, you already made up your mind that you're already going to look for somewhere else. And that's what I did. I wanted to move closer to home. I had a long commute. I had little, little kids at home and I was getting home late and I wanted to spend more time with them.
[11:54]
And I also wanted a different experience. And so I was able to take though what I had accomplished at that school, take it to a new school, a new district where I wasn't considered a new principal anymore. I was considered a more seasoned principal and I was able to take what I learned and just apply it in a new environment that was drastically different, but those same leadership principles applied. So if you're starting to think about it, hey, look, you know, because if you stay too long somewhere where you know it's not the right fit, you are going to get burned out and We're seeing just too many educators leave the profession. I am no longer a principal. I work in a variety of different ways, but I'm still in education.
[12:31]
But what we are seeing is a lot of educators are leaving the profession entirely and going off and doing other things. And so if you are feeling burned out where you are, take a look somewhere else. Sometimes the grass is greener, sometimes it's not, but sometimes change is good. So don't be afraid to change and don't be afraid to say, hey, you know what? I gave this my all, but it's time for me to take care of myself a little bit. I'm going to go to a different school, different district, and maybe have a different experience for a few years.
[12:57] SPEAKER_00:
And that's one thing that I think is very hard for people who are feeling very stressed to realize is that the same job title can be a very different job, but just in a different organization. Being a principal in a job where the district is chaotic and you don't have a supportive supervisor, even if the job title is the same in a different district, if your supervisor is supportive, if your district is supportive, if you have what you need, that can be just a transformative experience to make a move like that. I've found that so many people who can't even imagine changing districts. It's just something they never saw themselves doing, like it would be a failure to do it. But if compared to leaving the profession entirely, I wish more people would consider that, honestly.
[13:34] SPEAKER_01:
People move around. I think that there's this sense, because I worked with teachers that had been at the school for 30 years, and good for them. I mean, that's amazing. That's not my journey, and that's not everyone's journey. And school administrators, I believe the statistic is the majority are there less than five years, For superintendents, I believe it's two years is the normal tenure for it. And so administrators do move around and it's not necessarily a bad thing if you are the one who's making that decision to move around.
[14:05]
It's not that you're a failure. It's just, you know, you're looking for something different and you did accomplish some of the goals you set out to do. And there might be someone who can come in and fill that spot that you're leaving that has that energy to finish the job or to take the school to a new level that You know, at the end of the day, you weren't going to be able to do, and that's okay. There's nothing wrong with that. I always hoped that the person who replaced me was just going to be dynamite and knock it out of the park. I respected the people I worked with and the families and the kids and the teachers, and I wanted them to continue to succeed.
[14:35]
Not for me to be like, ha, see, like I'm not there anymore. So like, it's a big failure. Like, no, that's not the work that we do, but it's okay to move. You know, again, like you just said, I'd rather you move schools. and do something else within education rather than take your real estate license or test and go be a realtor, which is, again, not a bad thing. But again, we need educators to stay in the education profession more now than ever before.
[14:58]
And you mentioned this in my bio. I'm an affiliate of Dr. Robert Marzano, who literally wrote the book on good instruction. And it's been an absolute honor and pleasure to get to work with him and speak with him and learn from him. You know, good instruction has changed, right? over the years.
[15:14]
Even from when he started, I look at some of his original works and I'm like, this isn't super applicable anymore. But just, you know, when you go think about project-based learning, when you think about using instructional technology properly, when you talk about inquiry, you talk about student voice, it's really mixing it up and teachers having a well-rounded tool belt to pull from. That's what a good instructional program is. And as a principal, it's not my job necessarily to be an expert in all those things. And I I think we've done the job a little bit of injustice by saying that we all need to be instructional experts. I was a good teacher.
[15:50]
Was I the best teacher? No, I was not. But I was good. Do I need to be an expert in how to teach math and reading and science? No. Do I need to know what good instruction looks like?
[15:59]
Yes. my whole approach was I wanted to be well-rounded. I wanted kids to come in every day. Yes, routines are important for kids, but mixing it up too within that routine, like, oh, well, today we're going to do table groups or we're going to do centers or we're going to, hey, let's take the class outside. It's 75 degrees and sunny. And let's go on a nature walk around the field and look at different things.
[16:21]
Mixing it up, having that differentiated instruction based off of kids' needs, getting away from the pacing guide of the textbooks. Some teachers, they think of it as like a Bible. It's written in stone, and it's not. It's called a guide. I always told my teachers, because they asked me like, how much do you want us to like go like step by step? And I said, I want you to teach the content.
[16:43]
However you teach the content, that's up to you. Be creative. Do different things. As long as kids are learning, that makes me happy. So be creative. Give your teachers the opportunity to try new things.
[16:55]
Take risks. They take risks. Students will take risks. That's a good thing. I had teachers come to me with ideas and I said, sure. And then it was such a colossal failure.
[17:04]
that they would teacher would come back they'd be like david i'm so sorry and i'm like why you tried it you did your best it was a spectacular disaster but you know what hey you felt comfortable in trying it and i love that you know the kids are fine they're not running away from the school they're totally fine so have that type of a instructional culture where it's okay to take risks it's okay to fail it's okay to put yourself out there and try something new
[17:29] SPEAKER_00:
You know, we've kind of unintentionally sent the opposite message so often when it comes to, you know, those infrequent observations that are very high stakes. Hey, I have to write your whole evaluation based on whatever happens in the next 45 minutes. Go for it.
[17:41] SPEAKER_01:
I remember an observation that my principal came and conducted on me, and he came up to me 10 minutes into the observation and said, hey, do you want me to come back tomorrow? Like, this isn't... going so well. And it wasn't.
[17:52]
And I was like, really? You would do that? He's like, absolutely. Not every day is your best day. I remember that as well. And I have done that with teachers because it's terrible.
[18:01]
We do this like, I'm going to come in once or twice a year and write up your whole summary on how good of a teacher you are based off of this. And that's not what it is. So as a leader, I was in classrooms. I made sure I was in everyone's classroom at least one time a week. Most of the time it was more than that, but I made sure every classroom once a week just to visit. And so I can get a sense of like what's happening in the classroom and how I can support that teacher.
[18:24]
But yeah, we do that disservice with our observations and evaluation systems in education are just horrendous. And hopefully some things will change out of that soon, but it's been like that for years. But I know there's a lot of people that are just kind of fed up with that system too.
[18:39] SPEAKER_00:
You said something really important there that I want to go back to, the idea of getting into classrooms to see how you can support people. And I think often we hear the message that we're supposed to get into classrooms to give feedback, to kind of like tell people what to do differently. And there's a lot of expectation in a lot of districts that you get into classrooms to give feedback. And I think that attitude of I'm here to support you I'm here to learn what I can do to be more effective, to make decisions that are based on what you need, based on being in your classroom. I think that's such a powerful perspective shift. How do teachers respond to that?
[19:11] SPEAKER_01:
Very well. I tell administrators who are getting into the profession, when you go in to do these observations, I want you to think of yourself more as a coach than as an evaluator or an administrator, because it brings that guard down. Early in my career, I had an amazing instructional coach who I brought on board, and he I used her a lot to go into classrooms because I had to change around the notion of me going into classrooms. Teachers were a little like, oh, David's in here. Like, I got to do things differently. And I didn't want them to.
[19:40]
I wanted it like, I want you to do what you do. When my coach went to classrooms, that didn't happen. And so I had to build the trust that they would be like, it's okay, David's coming in. It's not a big deal. And I did exactly what you said. It's like, I want to see what you're doing so that I can support you.
[19:54]
And so I can't do that if I'm sitting in my office. But it's creating that strong culture, that trust, those relationships where it's best intentions. That's why I'm coming in. I'm not coming in so that I can make notes and write you up for something or put something in evaluation. I want to know what you're doing so that I can help you. Because at the end of the day, my evaluation is tied to student achievement.
[20:17]
And if I'm not helping you to do your job the best you can, I'm just shooting myself in the foot. And so having students be successful, that's the number one, not how many evaluations do I do.
[20:27] SPEAKER_00:
Very well said. And just that frequent presence of being there once a week, everything just gets less tense and less high stakes when you're there more often. If you've just got one shot, it's like if every day is the Super Bowl because you've only got that one shot, then people are going to be very...
[20:43] SPEAKER_01:
Yeah. Well, it's that notion of like, you know, formative and summative assessment. Like we work with the kids on formative assessment, but like with teachers, it's always a summative with their evaluation. So it's like, no. And I would take the word assessment out of there, but it's like, no, like I'm going to work with you. It's assessment for learning rather than of learning.
[20:59]
So it's a mind shift there as well, for sure. about good on time. Any thing we didn't get to that we should? No, I mean, I think that encapsulates a lot of the book, a lot of the kind of topics that I speak about when I, when I work with schools. You know, the last thing I probably would say is, you know, it, it, These are tough times in education. People are tired and burnt out and just know that you have a support structure, you know, either within your district or within the greater education community.
[21:26]
And, you know, some of that does come from like the principal's desk, Facebook group, where we have close to 230,000 educators from across the world where people post, you questions or ask for advice. And within a few minutes, they get 50 responses. And everywhere I go now, there are people that know the group and they get a lot out of it. And so for anyone who's listening, if you are not a part of the group, it's the principal's desk, please join and be a part of this network of support that's out there for educators.
[21:56] SPEAKER_00:
Absolutely echo that sentiment. I think there are different groups out there that have kind of a different vibe or a different focus. And some of them are a little bit more about cutesy things you can do in your school or different angles. But I just love the advice that people ask for and receive in that group. I think it is really the best one out there. And as you said, it just has so many fabulous people.
[22:16]
Vigorous debate sometimes. Got to be ready for that. But that's how we get to the things that matter and to good ideas. So thank you for hosting that debate every day. I'm sure it's a largely invisible...
[22:25]
Labor of love to keep that running, but thank you for the contribution that you make. So the book is Advice from the Principal's Desk, Five Pillars of School Leadership. Dr. David Franklin, if people want to learn more about the Principal's Desk, I know you also have a newsletter that people can get an annual subscription to. Where's the best place for them to go online?
[22:44] SPEAKER_01:
Just go to principalsdesk.org and you can find information about our newsletter, the upcoming book, professional development services that I engage with schools all the time with, and also our Principals Desk podcast, which is also available there. So just go to principalsdesk.org and that should be all that you need. Perfect. Thanks so much.
[23:04] Announcer:
Thanks for listening to Principal Center Radio. For more great episodes, subscribe on our website at principalscenter.com slash radio.
