[00:01] SPEAKER_01:
Welcome to Principal Center Radio, bringing you the best in professional practice.
[00:06] Announcer:
Here's your host, director of the Principal Center and champion of high performance instructional leadership, Justin Bader. Welcome everyone to Principal Center Radio.
[00:15] SPEAKER_01:
I'm your host, Justin Bader, and I'm honored to be joined today by Jack Joes and Krista Taylor, who are respectively the principal and intervention specialist at Gamble Montessori High School in Cincinnati. And they're the authors of angels and superheroes, compassionate educators in an era of school accountability.
[00:36] Announcer:
And now, our feature presentation.
[00:38] SPEAKER_01:
Jack and Krista, welcome to Principal Center Radio. Thank you, Justin. Well, first we have to talk about the elephant in the room. You guys are in a Montessori public high school. Talk to me about that. How did that come to be?
[00:50]
Because as we all know, there are not many public Montessori high schools, and I have to imagine that there's a particular reason and story behind that.
[00:59] SPEAKER_00:
Yeah, we came along in 2005 as a response to – there was a public Montessori high school here in Cincinnati called Clark Montessori that was the first of its kind anywhere. And it was very popular, very well supported by Cincinnati public schools. And it came to the point where they couldn't house all of the sixth graders in our district who needed a seventh grade seat. And so Gamble came along in 2005. Started in the basement of an elementary school in the neighborhood where we now are. Moved out to a swing space as we grew.
[01:33]
Actually, we're paired with Clark in another building for a while where they were getting their new building. And then we've moved back home to the west side as a full-fledged 7 to 12 Montessori high school.
[01:42] SPEAKER_02:
And so, as you said earlier, secondary Montessori is this unusual academic program. And Maria Montessori visioned secondary without developing the materials for it in the same way that she did at the elementary level. But it really is growing by leaps and bounds in large part due to parent demand, both in the private and the public school sector. And in fact, Cincinnati also happens to host one of only two secondary Montessori teacher accreditation programs in the country. The other one is in Houston, Texas. So we feel really blessed here to have a really strong Montessori base.
[02:17] SPEAKER_01:
Well, and I know a lot of our listeners will think of Montessori and associate that with kind of a fancy preschool, right? As far as numerically, that's the most common phenomenon out there. But when I was a principal in Seattle, we certainly had Montessori programs at the elementary level in the public school district. But talk to me a little bit about why that has emerged as a model that meets students' needs at the secondary level and particularly in Cincinnati public schools.
[02:42] SPEAKER_00:
Well, and funny, Justin, as we were preparing for this podcast, I've been a fan of yours and a listener for about a year and a half or two years. You go on jogs with me. Thank you. I'm thankful for that. And I was thinking about how to make sure that the other principals out there who aren't at Montessori schools understand our message. We work with a predominantly low income.
[03:01]
We're a Title I school. And we think that what we do as a Montessori school, although in the United States, the model is It's sort of an upper middle class paradigm, and that's the interest. In fact, that when you stop and meet the needs of individual students and you find them where they are, which is what Montessori is, right? You just meet them where they are and push them forward in depth. When you do that, that's good teaching. And that's the point of our book is that these aren't Montessori techniques.
[03:28]
They are replicable ways that you can meet the needs of students in your classroom to increase learning.
[03:34] SPEAKER_02:
So Maria Montessori, she began her work with children who were considered uneducable in the slums of Rome. And what she did was she observed them and she observed what they gravitated toward and how they learned. And her work was never intended by her to become an upper middle class phenomenon in the way that it sort of has been historically in the United States. Although I do believe that's changing. Public school Montessori is really growing exponentially. And what her thought was for the adolescent, she used this term Erdkinder, which is German for Earth's children.
[04:04]
And she believed that especially at the early adolescent level that our teenagers needed to get out into the world. They needed to have real world experiences and especially engagement in the natural world. That that was really the work of the hands was what they needed to do during that time. And we really see that in our program. And we think that all adolescents can benefit from those kind of experiences.
[04:28] SPEAKER_00:
There is a point I'd like to make because several years ago we received a school improvement grant, a federal grant that was filtered down through the state of Ohio. And as part of that grant, I received principal training and they gathered hundreds of principals from low performing schools on the campus of Ohio State University, gave us a lot of business training. And one of the conversations that came up organically was how we structured our schedule. And we had built into our schedule a time in the fall where we just stop all of our instruction. The middle school students go camping for four days. The high school students went camping as part of a larger experience that went as long as 10 days.
[05:09]
It was called intercession. And then in the spring, again, in high school, we stop all instruction for 10 days and do an immersive out of the school experience. learning experience that isn't necessarily academic. We could travel someplace that we've learned about. We could study the Underground Railroad here in Cincinnati and the history of that, or study restaurants and what it means to be a restaurateur. And when I shared that model that was happening at our school with these other principals, there was shock and horror that we would waste one of our precious hours or a precious day not teaching kids algebra.
[05:51]
And so we believed that when you make that connection with students and when you teach them that learning can be fun and engaging and you give them learning experiences, then they love to learn. And so that child that in seventh grade you guide across the ropes course at leadership camp by telling them you can do this, you've got this, you can do this. When you get that child back in the classroom and they're struggling with an algebra concept and you're talking them across that same wire, right? You're like, you can do this. Now they believe you. And what happened as a result of that was in 2012, our school went, well, in the course of two years, we went from the next to lowest tier on the state report card to excellent, the highest tier on the state report card.
[06:34]
And there was only one other school in Cincinnati Public Schools, one other high school that had ever earned that rating other than us. And it was Walnut Hills High School, which is a school you have to pass a test to get into. Great school, but very different from ours. So we feel that when you stop and take that time to teach kids that learning is fun and you teach them how to learn, you have nothing but gains in the classroom.
[06:57] SPEAKER_02:
And we get quite a few students, well more than half of our students come to us without a Montessori background. So their secondary Montessori program is the only Montessori that they've had. And getting them ready to be responsible for their own learning, helping them to develop what Maria Montessori would have called valorization, but what we might call bravery, courage, leadership, those kind of social emotional skills that we're looking to grow in our adolescence. and being out of the classroom and challenging yourself, being in a difficult situation, having to go through it together, establishes relationships that then allow for trust as Jack was describing that algebra problem that's no different than the high wire for a student who feels afraid of making a mistake in math or not writing an essay that is as good as they would have hoped. When you have the trust of that student, you can push them far beyond where they thought they could go.
[07:49] SPEAKER_01:
But I'm thinking about our models for urban education. And I'm thinking about the movies that have been made about urban education, especially at the high school level. And, you know, we have the image of the principal with a baseball bat or the megaphone or whatever, you know. And, you know, certainly safety is something that should not be overlooked. But I really appreciate your emphasis. And I wonder if we could talk about this a bit on that climate, that climate of trust, that climate of interpersonal respect, and really building a community that probably does not have you carrying around a baseball bat very much today.
[08:25]
You know, to kind of get the learning, you know, to make the learning possible. Talk to me about how those approaches contribute to that environment and to meeting your students' needs. Because, I mean, it sounds very intentional as a factor in choosing Montessori as a model in the first place.
[08:39] SPEAKER_02:
So safety, school safety is certainly a huge buzzword right now. Everybody's really concerned. Everybody's putting a lot of energy, a lot of thought, a lot of money into school safety and what that means and what it looks like. It's interesting the way that my students have responded to that. And I think it speaks to what children need from the adults in their lives, as well as kind of the culture that you referenced that we create here at Gamble with our metal detectors and our bag searches. Our students are uncomfortable.
[09:10]
They don't like it. They feel targeted. They express that pretty profoundly. They say things like, it's as if you don't trust us, or this place should be our home. And it was really profound for the community of teachers that I work with and our group of students when they spent literally hours kind of decompressing, deconstructing this experience and talking to us about it and ultimately what they've decided to do and I'm not quite sure how it's all going to play out yet but they've tackled this idea of a kindness project and they want to do it in the school within the Cincinnati community and they want it to be global which is really interesting and creating schools to be places where people belong. And to them, that's where school safety starts.
[09:54]
They believe that it's also where school safety ends. I'm not sure that's the full answer, but in their minds, that's the difference they want to make. They want every student to feel as that sense of belonging, that sense of community that they feel here.
[10:08] SPEAKER_00:
And we think when you prioritize the students' needs, Right. When you meet their needs, they say, we want to feel safe. We want to be safe at school. We want to be heard. And there's a large number of students who on March 14th wanted to walk out and wanted to be part of 17 minutes of silence to honor the victims at Parkland. That was the day that Chris was talking about.
[10:28]
We came back in and they decompressed. We had the good fortune of one of the Sensei Public Schools board members, Mike Morosky, was able to join us and sit with our students just as they process that. And I think that's really powerful work because we're hearing them and we're listening to them and having conversations. And that helps explain our actions so that we aren't some baseball bat wielding authoritarian organism telling them you have to do this, and you're going to be OK. Instead, we're working with them in partnership to get them to think that they can get further and be safer than they believe they could. And so, you know, one of the things we talk about in the book is we're within this Montessori framework.
[11:07]
But in fact, in those chapters, we break down – when that child misbehaves in the classroom, always it's a sign of some deeper issue, right? It's not that they desperately wanted to wear a hat today and that's the stand they want to take. There's something else going on. There's something underneath that. And so how does that play out? How can we figure out and solve the problem with that student?
[11:30]
What are the specific steps I can take? And it's not about being in a certain type of high school. It's about being in a certain type of relationship with your student that is respectful and appropriate and sees who they will be at the end. It doesn't discount where they are right now. but understands that they aren't who they're hoping to be in any given moment, especially not in their worst moments. When they're making bad decisions, that isn't who they want to be.
[11:52]
And you've got to always help them see their best self.
[11:56] SPEAKER_01:
I'm certainly getting the sense from the book that your goal is not to make every high school a Montessori high school. That's not what the book is about. But it's about... different approach to working with students and again the title is angels and superheroes so I wonder if we could talk a little bit about where that title came from because certainly we all have our days where we don't feel like angels or superheroes and we just you know this is hard work but I really appreciate the message that you have about how even if we're in a traditional school setting very different from yours that we can adopt some of these same approaches so yeah take us into the name and the philosophy there
[12:33] SPEAKER_00:
Sure. Well, let me tell you the history of this as I remember it. Krista remembers it a little bit differently. In my memory, she proposed a book and I told her, that's ridiculous. We can never write a book. But maybe in the meantime, we can write a blog.
[12:47]
And the blog is at angelsandsuperheroes.com. That's all one word, www.angelsandsuperheroes.com. So we started this blog about these items.
[12:57]
And in there, in that process – I'm trying to remember the timeline exactly – In 2015, Krista was selected as the Cincinnati Public Schools Educator of the Year, the Lawrence C. Hawkins Educator of the Year. Western and Southern Insurance sponsors it. I'm hoping they'll remember, I just gave them a shout out. And she gets up there and she does two really profound things. The first thing she does is she takes this $10,000 personal check that's made out to her and she donates it to our foundation here at the school so that we create a scholarship so that our eighth grade students can go on our marine biology capstone project at the end of the year.
[13:37]
So now every year, four students are scholarshiped to go on this experience to Pigeon Key, Florida. And so that's the first thing. She just gives away the money and says, this needs to go to my students. That was powerful enough. And then she said this, and I'm paraphrasing, but it's how I heard it with my heart. She says, you know, how ridiculous is it that we pick one person to be the teacher of the year?
[14:00]
That's ridiculous. There are 24 nominees in this room. All of us give everything we have in the best interest of our students. And across the country, thousands of teachers every day get up and give everything they have. They spend their own money in their classrooms. They spend their spare time and their weekends grading papers and they go to sporting events.
[14:19]
and they spend time away from their families to support students who aren't their biological children. It's like, she says, you know, as if any of us are angels or superheroes. We're not. We're regular people who care deeply about our students. And as I remember it, she came off the stage and I said, that's it. That's the name of our blog.
[14:38]
We're going to call it Angels and Superheroes. But what we're going to say is we aren't angels and superheroes. It's not impossible to do what we've done. Here are the steps. There are things you can learn. There are practices you can incorporate in your classroom that will help you build these relationships to get the results that you need to get from your students.
[14:55] SPEAKER_01:
Well, and I think that's where we get into the lessons for all of us, right? Even if we're not in a Montessori setting, even if we're not in a situation where we can have those 10-day out-of-school experiences with our kids, or at least not right away. We might have to take some action over a period of years to set up something like that. But let's talk about that inclusive environment. I know we've talked a little bit about seeing discipline a little bit differently, not as something that we just need to run immediately and punish, but as a sign that something's going on with that kid that we need to look into. You know, we need to figure out why that kid is wearing a hat today against school rules, not just go after that as something to punish.
[15:33]
So yeah, let's talk a little bit more about that kind of lens on creating an inclusive environment.
[15:38] SPEAKER_02:
Well, I think you bring up a couple of pieces. One is the approach to discipline, and that's part of creating inclusion and belonging. Not only are we a Title I school, but we have a very high special needs population. I think we're at 46% of our students are identified with disabilities. So we see a lot of challenges in the classroom, but almost exclusively all of our students are fully included. And I just want to tell another student's story because I think the power in their words is far more impactful than anything I tell about them.
[16:09]
I had a student, a talented student come to me last year, and she was considering attending Walnut Hills, this test school that's in our district. It's the number one school, public school in the state of Ohio. And she was very anxious. She was nervous. She clearly thought that I was going to be upset with her. And I looked at her and I said, you know, you need to decide what's right for you.
[16:27]
I can't tell you what to do. They're a great school. I think we do some things here that are wonderful and they do some things there that are wonderful. And you're really developing into an incredible leader here. And they're really academically focused. And she said, well, yeah, you know, that's what we do here.
[16:40]
We like, you know, we help each other out. And then she paused and she looked at me and we had a student with Down syndrome in our classroom. And she said, well, wait, Miss Taylor, does that school even have students like Gregory there? And I kind of looked at her and I said, well, you have to test to get in there. So no, they don't. And she said, well, how does anyone learn how to be a leader if you don't have other kinds of students there with you?
[17:06] SPEAKER_00:
Wow.
[17:07] SPEAKER_02:
That's what I thought.
[17:09] SPEAKER_00:
Right. And there's the lesson. There's the spirit of community. There's the role of a school in a community is to help And I unpacked this with Krista when she first told us the story. It was very clear that this student, who actually I sat and I was eating pizza with last night before a community conversation, and she sees her classmates not just as someone that she can lead, but that someone she can learn from. And she saw the student with Down syndrome as someone who taught her something about herself and about her classmates as someone of value.
[17:44]
And that is... a priceless lesson to teach a child about their fellow classmates.
[17:51] SPEAKER_01:
It strikes me that as much as we can all hear what's going on at your school and get excited about that and agree with it and buy into it, there are probably things that we are doing that are very common practices in our schools that directly interfere with that culture that you're talking about. And I wonder if anything comes to mind that is just conspicuously absent from your school or when you go to another school, you can feel like, oh, they do something here and we don't do that and there's a reason for that and there's a consequence to that.
[18:21] SPEAKER_00:
You know, we've been here. I've been at the school for this is my 10th year. Then the principal is my ninth year as principal. And so so much of what has happened here is influenced by my belief set and our research together. I don't I don't have that perspective from other schools. And sometimes I'm told that this is a very special place.
[18:43]
I know that that one of the teachers that I hired last year came from a more challenging neighborhood school two miles from here. And, you know, I was I was telling her about how we do the intercession and how we do when we refer a student to we don't call it in school suspension. We call it the ALC and they do this reflection. And when they come back to the classroom and the reflection is not what did you do? Why did you do it? It's what happened.
[19:07]
What was your role in it? which of our core values was violated. It's meant to be very open-ended. A student actually co-wrote it with us when we saw that we needed to change what was happening in ALC. And she saw the camping and all that. And she goes, you know, I don't think like intellectually, I don't think this works, but I just got done having a conversation with an eighth grade student here whose brother I taught at the other school.
[19:33]
And so I know the family, I know the experiences and she is dramatically different at school. And she said, I just think it has something to do with what you do at this school. And I said, you know, there's always differences in siblings. It could just be those differences. But I think by allowing students to have a voice, by explaining, one of the things that I'm really big on is I explain why we have a rule. What I tell students is if I can't explain why a certain rule is in place, we shouldn't have it.
[19:59]
And once students understand why a rule exists, they're more likely to want to follow it or to come and do what a group of students did last week and go to our instructional leadership team and petition to change the rule, which they actually brought two proposals to us and we changed one rule for next year and we kept the other rule the same. And students knowing that they have that voice is really powerful. It takes time and a lot of schools and a lot of teachers don't allow for that. Um, because we are experts, we do know what we're talking about, but we let that get in the way of the sort of the edges of where, what, what we know best and students experience where those two things rub up against each other. I think there can be some flexibility in there when you get the buy-in from the students, a lot of other problems solve themselves.
[20:46] SPEAKER_02:
Well, and I'd like to address your question from a slightly different perspective, from the perspective of a teacher. I do remember teaching in other programs. In fact, the year I came to Gamble, this was my last-ditch attempt. I was ready to leave the profession. It wasn't mirroring why I chose it in the first place. And fortunately, I was able to find something different here.
[21:07]
And I would call it space, really, the space to make mistakes, to try something new and maybe be wrong, to try something innovative. and maybe get it right and get to celebrate that. Space to look at students as individuals, address their discipline based on who you know them to be as opposed to following a rigid structure, having flexibility within that. The space to teach creative curriculum, to not be tied to whatever the test prep doctrine of the day is, or the curriculum that is newly being rolled out after the one that was just rolled out the year before. And to be able to follow what you see happening in your classroom and know what's right for your students. And I think Jack's actually just done an amazing job with giving teachers permission to look at their students and to look at their class as a whole and to do what they know is right for that class based on the experiences they had the day before and the week before and the month before.
[22:08]
And I think that as a society, we're kind of breaking the hearts of our teachers. And I think that we see that in the lack of retention among teachers, teacher turnover, teacher burnout rates, and the reduction in the numbers of people entering the profession. And that's scary. And that's a tide that we have to change. And I think that the way to do it is to return to the roots of the profession and the gifts that the profession gives back when you're able to engage in it in the way that you've dreamed.
[22:38] SPEAKER_00:
Recently, Justin, I heard your interview with John Hattie, Visible Learning. And one of the things that stuck with me that he said, and I've heard credited to him before, is any approach works, right? The research shows that if you're doing any of these approaches with fidelity, you're going to get growth from your students. And what I think is the missing piece is That often the principal comes in and says, my approach, this approach that I'm going to make all of you do right now is the approach that's going to work. And there is some truth to that. But I think the approach that works better is the approach that the teacher is coached in and encouraged in that they're interested in.
[23:16]
They bring to you that I think this is going to work. How can I help you? I think this is the way to move my students forward. Well, what resources do you need? Not that we have a lot of resources, but the idea is that the approach that you're passionate about, the one that you've researched and you want to implement in your classroom, is going to work even better than the approach that I come and bring in. works right that's we know that statistically as long as you're doing something with fidelity and then you have the energy and passion that a principal can create for a teacher to have some professionalism and some space in their classroom you get growth I love that and I think that's something that too often gets lost in the discussion of effect sizes and what works and relative differences in effect sizes because there's always a human factor a huge human factor and
[24:02] SPEAKER_01:
And I think it speaks to the need of both students and teachers to have a say in how school, how that big chunk of their life is conducted. And I think you're absolutely right. Like, I would rather people do something that they are deeply invested in, assuming it's, you know, reasonably effective, something that they believe in and they're passionate about. Rather than something that has a slightly higher effect size to the second or third decimal point. Because we know that that passion and that belief, that buy-in makes such a difference.
[24:37] SPEAKER_00:
Well, you have to be willing. And this is one of the areas I've tried to be good at. Like if I could be the best at something, I would like to be the best at figuring out what we don't need to do. an example of this several years ago that I'm really proud of. And it was, it was a gut level call. I have students stay for consequences.
[24:57]
There's what we call Friday night school. And it's, it's just an extended detention on Friday night. We do it on Friday cause we want to hurt their weekend. Cause you know, they, they're broken a school rule and we must exact revenge. And so one night, um, six 30 came and it was time to dismiss and this parent hadn't arrived for these two children. And, um, Another half hour went past and another half hour.
[25:19]
I'm the administrator. I'm trapped at school waiting for this tardy parent. And I happen to know that they got the Friday night school for chronic tardiness to school. And and I'm starting to think, wait a second. The problem isn't the two students. It's their mom.
[25:35]
Right. And so we had a really complex system in place of You know, we counted the number of tardies and there was a whole system of secretaries giving notes to certain teachers. Then at a certain point, it became a detention. The teachers had to administer to the detention. And then if they missed the detention or they got a certain point, we had to do the Friday night school. And the end result was there was all this paperwork.
[25:57]
And here I was trapped at school, you know, at 730 at night. So what I said was, I think we actually aren't making a difference on tardiness. Scrap the system. And I just, I set a relatively arbitrary number. Like when they get to seven, you know, we'll call their parent. And we just, we threw the rest of it out.
[26:19]
And it was, it was a pure experiment that, that event had happened right before winter break. And so we had first semester's data with the system, second semester's data with no system in place at all. And I don't remember which one edged one out, but you were just talking about going down to the third decimal place. Our tardiness rate was the same after the decimal and Same digit. Next digit was the same. Third digit, it was one separate.
[26:43]
And I don't remember which was better. But we were expending as a school all of this energy to punish tardy kids, and we were having no effect at all. And we scrapped it, and we got time back. And now we still think tardiness is an issue, but it's the same issue that it was before. And we're not wasting our time trying to tackle it. And we're spending our time doing the things that matter.
[27:07] SPEAKER_01:
Well, and it strikes me that that is part of the culture of inquiry that I think Maria Montessori would be proud of, that you're trying to create for your students and that you're taking that approach to leading your school as well. And I know there is so much more in the book that we haven't had a chance to talk about yet. But for our audience of listeners who are in all kinds of schools all over the world, we've got people in... preschool settings, K-12 schools, public, private, everything in between, all over.
[27:37]
If you could wave a magic wand in our profession and get us all to do something, what would that be?
[27:44] SPEAKER_02:
I think that's to work to see every child as an individual and work to see the gifts in every child. There are a couple of times during the school year where we have a kind of ceremony with our students where we share with them Just the most incredible things about who they are and that's it. And it really takes a concerted effort to not say but or on some days you or, well, most of the time you but sometimes you. And to just really only show them that best self person. And it resonates incredibly deeply with them. And they remember it and they start to reference themselves using the same words that you gave to them.
[28:26]
And I think being able to do that shifts something not just for the student, but also for the teacher. Because now you've been able to see the gifts of the child, even really especially when it's a challenging student. And there are students where it's really hard. And I tell myself and other teachers that when there's a student that you really struggle to see what's wonderful about them, go find a teacher who sees that easily. and ask them to tell it to you so you can see it also.
[28:55] SPEAKER_00:
And, you know, you change the question. Like if you could wave a magic wand, like my answer was I would end poverty. We know that, you know, you think about summer slide. You think about the circumstances. Mondays are harder than Thursdays because students go home to situations where parents are working multiple jobs. They don't have a lot of structure in the evening.
[29:17]
Parents come home from those multiple jobs exhausted and And they aren't their best selves with their students. They aren't in a place to help their student out. And that's a real challenge. And we find ourselves a lot of times in our school just dealing with aspects of poverty. On a rainy day, we might be up at the front just taking in wet outer garments because not all of our kids have rain gear. And they sprint the 50 yards from the buses up a hill to our front door, and their clothes are soaking wet.
[29:45]
So we collect them and throw them in the dryer and get them back as quick as we can. So I guess that would be my first thing. The second thing, just in terms of what we do in the schools, it's about helping the students see their best self and making the change inside of you to see the student as their best self all the time, even when they aren't being their best self.
[30:06] SPEAKER_01:
So the book is Angels and Superheroes, Compassionate Educators in an Era of School Accountability. Jack and Krista, thanks so much for joining me on Principal Center Radio.
[30:15] SPEAKER_00:
Our pleasure. Thank you, Justin.
[30:18] SPEAKER_01:
And now, Justin Bader on high performance instructional leadership. So high performance instructional leaders, what did you take away from my conversation with Jack and Krista? It's easy to hear about an unusual school model and think, well, our school is different. Our school could never do the kinds of outside of the classroom experiences that their school does. But what I want to encourage you to focus on as you think about Jack and Krista's work and as you read their book is the mindset, is the approach to working with students that I think they represent so well in Angels and Superheroes. And I don't do this very often on Principal Center Radio, but I want to encourage you to check out this book for your entire staff, to check it out as a book study.
[31:06]
that maybe you don't tackle all at once, but maybe you tackle over the coming school year, or maybe divided up into different chapters for different committees. But I want to encourage you to get into this philosophy. And you heard Jack and Krista talk about Maria Montessori and what she intended for her programs to be like. And even though she never wrote a high school curriculum, the approaches that are working so well in thousands of preschools and elementary schools all around the world can make a huge difference, particularly in underserved communities and with secondary students, just as well as with the younger grades. So again, the book is Angels and Superheroes, and you can learn more about that at angelsandsuperheroes.com.
[31:52] Announcer:
Thanks for listening to Principal Center Radio. For more great episodes, subscribe on our website at principalcenter.com slash radio.
