Transitioning To An Educational Leadership Role

[00:01] SPEAKER_01:

Welcome to Principal Center Radio, bringing you the best in professional practice.

[00:06] Announcer:

Here's your host, Director of the Principal Center and Champion of High Performance Instructional Leadership, Dustin Bader. Welcome everyone to Principal Center Radio.

[00:16] SPEAKER_02:

My guest today is Jamie Sussel Turner, the Less Stress Business Coach. Jamie is the author of Less Stress Business, a guide for hiring, coaching, and leading great employees. And you can actually hear our interview about that book if you go into our Principal Center Radio archives at principalcenter.com slash radio. And today we're talking about a shared interest in the principal job search.

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And now, our feature presentation.

[00:45] SPEAKER_02:

Jamie, welcome back to Principal Center Radio.

[00:47] SPEAKER_00:

Thank you so much, Justin. It's such a pleasure to get to talk with you again.

[00:50] SPEAKER_02:

Likewise, and I think we have a shared interest in kind of helping people along different stages of their careers, whether they're staying in a job and just trying to work through some problems, whether they're trying to increase their effectiveness, or if they're trying to improve the way they work with staff. But lately, we've been talking about the job search and that process of moving from a classroom teacher or a similar position into a more administrative position, or maybe moving from a principal position to central office or even a superintendency. And there are a lot of questions that people have and a lot of challenges that people face that are very different from the challenges that we face on a day-to-day basis. I wonder if you could tell us, what do you see as some of the biggest questions that people come to you with when they're facing a career transition, when they're looking for a new role?

[01:45] SPEAKER_00:

So first, let me just make sure your listeners know that I'm a former school principal as well as a business coach now. So I worked at a 37-year career in education, the last 12 as a school principal. So I bring that expertise to my role as a coach currently. And I do work with a lot of people in transition. And sometimes some of the challenges that they face are feeling either frustrated with their current job or feeling that they've kind of maxed out and grown as much as they can where they are and they're ready for a new challenge. And so people I find who are in that position and excited and kind of chomping at the bit be able to bring their gifts to a new role.

[02:30]

Those people tend to do pretty well. I've had more challenges though, with people who are frustrated where they are and unhappy, and they want to make a change out of that place of frustration. So I find it really helps them to understand what's missing in their current position, what they want to have more of, what they want to have less of in their life and in their workplace. and to really dig deeply and understand what that's about for them before they start the process of applying for jobs.

[03:02] SPEAKER_02:

Right. It's almost as if we have to kind of launch from a strong foundation and capitalize on things that we want and not just react against things that we don't want, if I'm hearing you correctly.

[03:12] SPEAKER_00:

Yes, you heard that exactly right. Thank you. I love the way you expressed it. A strong foundation and really mining where they are and what they're feeling so that they understand as fully as possible, what's been happening. So, for example, I had one client who didn't get a job in her district when she tried to apply from a classroom position to her first administrative position. And she held a lot of resentment and anger at what was happening because she felt she was the most qualified person.

[03:44]

And so as she was going to interviews, she was bringing this resentment and anger with her as it was like sitting on her shoulder as she was talking in these interviews. And before we worked together, she had been at several interviews and not landing a position and found it really helpful when we kind of unpacked what was going on. And I guess what happened in that process was she realized she had just lost her passion for why she wanted to be a school principal and why she wanted to be an administrator and why she had studied so hard and gone through all the exams and the certification process and all of that. She just was so focused on wanting to leave one thing to get to something else without really connecting with why that mattered to her so much.

[04:35] SPEAKER_02:

Well, let's talk about that situation a little bit more because I don't know the exact numbers, but I know there are hundreds of thousands of classroom teachers who got their administrative certification, maybe along with their master's degree. If you're going to get a master's degree, I think a lot of people figure it might as well open a new door in the future, even if you're not ready to walk through that door yet. So I think there are a lot of people who have been in the same type of position for a long time and have been thinking about leadership, have been taking on different forms of leadership from within their current role, maybe on district committees, maybe as a department chair, something like that, but really have always had their eye on an administrative position. And yet that sense of, you know, do I really have control over this? Is there something political going on that's going to keep me from getting this job? I hear that phrase, you know, it's political or it's all about who you know.

[05:26]

I hear things like that quite a bit. And I think that sense of frustration or maybe powerlessness to, you know, to help yourself advance is pretty common. Any thoughts on that issue for people who have been in their role for a while and are ready to move?

[05:41] SPEAKER_00:

Wow, you just touched on a lot of things right there. And I think the word powerlessness is the key. And I guess it also sparks for me thinking about whether you want to stay in your district or go outside of your district. So I think it's more challenging to move to an administrative position within your district because sometimes you're seen as just one kind of thing, whether you're a teacher, a media specialist, you know, whatever your role might be in that school district, it's hard for people to start to see you in a new role. So sometimes it helps to leave that comfort zone of tenure or familiarity or whatever is keeping a person in that district and not be afraid to go beyond it. That's something I think in my career that helped me so much.

[06:34]

I was never fearful of leaving one place and going to another place for a new opportunity. And I think people need to consider all of their options. So I know a lot of people also who got that certification and never used it. And part of it was they wanted to stay in that comfort zone and were fearful of going beyond it. So I guess if you think about what your passion is and really what you wanna do as an educator, we know you can affect more change and more lives. as a school principal than you can as a teacher.

[07:13]

It's not to minimize teaching at all. Obviously, I was a teacher and I think teaching is a wonderful profession. But if you have that desire to impact more people, school principalship is the job for you. And to get outside of those fears, I guess to really figure out what those fears are about for a person. I know some of the people that I've mentored were fearful when they started to see that As a leader, people that were mentoring when I was a principal were seeing that as a leader, they started to be like one of them. They were no longer, it was not us.

[07:51]

They weren't part of the staff, but they started to see they were part of the administration and they could feel that distance and that gap from the teachers. And they started to experience that in a new way. And I think that is uncomfortable for all of us who were in leadership roles when we learn how to navigate that new place and so for some people when they don't really understand that they get fearful of it and so i think helping to look at that fear and see what it is and understand it can help us to overcome it and i think there there is a certain peer pressure you know probably most people hear this i might have heard it more because my last name rhymes with darth vader but i was often accused of crossing over to the dark side

[08:36] SPEAKER_02:

when I started to move into administration. I think people are kind of joking, but kind of not when they say that. And certainly, there's nothing wrong with it. If you get your administrative credential, you think about it, you make some efforts, but you decide, hey, the classroom is really where I want to be, That is a good decision. That is a good outcome. If you've gone through that process, you've been reflective about it, and you know where you want to go with your career.

[09:04]

I mean, I think we have to acknowledge that that's a good outcome of the whole process, you know, for you to decide what the right fit for you is, even if that means staying where you are. But yeah, often we find people wondering about that and figuring out how do I take the next steps? And one thing that I think districts need to do more of, and I was very fortunate to benefit from this, is creating those intermediate positions where people can get out of the classroom and get into more of a leadership role and yet not be responsible for an entire school. So I had a job as what was called a head teacher, and it was not an instructional role at all or a professional development role. It was basically an assistant principal at an elementary school that was too small to have a certificated assistant principal. But that gave me such great experience, such great mentorship.

[09:50]

It allowed me to do my internship. It allowed me to get into classrooms of some really great teachers and see things that I had never seen before, you know, just as a classroom teacher who had not been in other people's classrooms very much. So there are things in between classroom teacher and school principal or even assistant principal that we've got to look for.

[10:07] SPEAKER_00:

I think you're right. Those interim positions, even when they don't have the label of or the credentialing of a formal leadership position, can be a really great place to have opportunity to grow some leadership muscles and be really helpful. So yeah, I'm so glad you mentioned that. I think that's really key. So I think for the listeners to look for those opportunities, I had to leave one district and go to another district to have that opportunity. And again, that was, you know, not letting tenure or fear keep me in place.

[10:40]

I saw a new opportunity each time and I went for it. So I think looking for opportunities for other positions that are those interim positions as you describe them, I think that's a great suggestion for people.

[10:54] SPEAKER_02:

It's almost like there are two different paths to the principalship, and they're both kind of coaching paths in some way. You can be an instructional coach, a content specialist, some sort of department leader or content area leader in some role, maybe a grant-funded role. Or we see this a lot in secondary schools. We have people who take on coaching responsibilities, athletic coaching, the other kind of coaching. And really get to work with students in a different way and get into more of a supervisory role that way and then get on to the kind of administrative path. But yeah, I think anytime we can kind of just get a different perspective on how we impact students, how we work with the adults in the building.

[11:35]

And and just find a way to gain that experience. And as you said, strengthen those muscles. I think that really makes us stand out. And I think from the perspective of any individual person, it's easy for me to look at my own qualifications and say, well, yes, I'd be perfect for this job. But one thing I always emphasize when I'm working with people through this process is. you have to show what makes you stand out.

[11:58]

There are two, 300, 400,000 other people with the degrees and certifications that you have. That is not what makes you special. What makes you stand out is something else, something that's not going to show up on paper unless you can articulate it for yourself, be confident in it, put it in your application, and then, as you said, show that you believe it when you actually show up for the interview. And that confidence really does come through you know, when we're talking face to face with people and that passion for leadership.

[12:28] SPEAKER_00:

I agree. You know, that's what builds confidence is knowing ourselves really well and what does make us unique and what would help us to help move a school community or a department in a new direction. It's knowing yourself well. I think one thing I've done with some of my clients that's helped them with this is I've encouraged them to come up with their core values as a leader. and as an educator. So what do you most stand for?

[12:56]

What do you believe is most important in education? How do you demonstrate that in your world? And that could be a road in to helping someone to figure out what it is that makes them unique. Another activity that helped a recent client of mine was I gave her an assignment to pick five people in her world, all different kinds of people, and ask them what they valued most about her. And her confidence had been lagging. She had been a finalist for a couple of positions and not landed a job yet.

[13:31]

And when she did that, it was amazing what she got back from the people who knew her well. And what they saw in her helped her to really solidify her confidence and what she valued in herself that made her unique.

[13:46] SPEAKER_02:

Well, let's talk about some more strategies along the way. So getting the kind of mental game right, figuring out what we want, figuring out what our values are, and then looking for ways to boost our confidence. I wonder if we could talk specifically about the interview stage of the process, because I think this is often where people get their first no. And knowing that we showed up, we gave our all, we gave the best interview we possibly could, and then the answer was no. What are some strategies that you recommend for acing that interview? Assuming it's some type of leadership position, we can maybe speak generally enough to apply to different positions.

[14:24]

But what are some things that you recommend that people do or not do in interviews?

[14:29] SPEAKER_00:

Well, I think one thing that's really helpful is to practice for the interview and rehearse Rehearse some questions. Find a trusted person, someone in a mentorship role with you who can ask you some questions and you can practice answering the questions. That's something that I do in my coaching and I find people are able to really test the waters and how to answer the questions. It doesn't mean you'll be prepared for every single question, but you'll have a sense, especially at the beginning. You know, people usually start with, tell us about yourself. And I find that one of the things that people don't know how to do is how to give the just right amount of information in response to that question.

[15:08]

I found that when I was a principal and conducted so many interviews in that role, some people would be nervous and just go on and on and on and not know when to stop, and others would just give a short, curt answer. So helping people get started with the interview, sometimes once you get over those initial jitters and feel comfortable with your opening, that can help the rest of it to flow really much more easily.

[15:33] SPEAKER_02:

That is great advice. I think that idea of practicing and specifically practicing what you're going to say about yourself, which again is something that people often don't feel good about doing because we're a humble profession. We don't like to talk about ourselves. We don't like to brag on ourselves, but especially maybe preceded by that activity that you suggested to your client that you mentioned earlier about asking other people, you know, what are some of my best characteristics? And, you know, and kind of getting that confidence boost, but also getting the practice engaging with that issue that may be uncomfortable of what am I really good at? What really makes me stand out?

[16:06]

And then really practicing and practicing and practicing. And one thing I tell people is, you know, it's uncomfortable to practice on video. It's uncomfortable to watch yourself on video. But, you know, that level of scrutiny is a level that you're going to face in the interview itself. So you might as well get that out of the way and see yourself on video, see the goofy facial expressions you make, hear your voice drop off so nobody can hear what you're saying, you know. work on it.

[16:31]

I think practice is so essential. I'll mention we have 52 practice interview questions that I've compiled over the years and just tried to really be comprehensive in what kinds of things tend to get asked in administrative interviews. So yeah, grab those questions if you don't have them already at principalcenter.com. You'll see them right there on the right side of the page. 52 practice interview questions and practice with a colleague, practice with a family member if you have to, but the more experienced a practice partner you can get, the better.

[17:03]

Well, Jamie, let's talk a little bit more about that interview. And in an interview, I think often people are, as you said, not accustomed to giving the right amount of information. So they'll either go on and on and on and kind of bore the committee to death, or they will give just far too little. They'll say, well, I have a master's degree and I'm certified at the end. And, you know, kind of reading the room, I think, can make a big difference. What's your advice on kind of responding to the interview committee?

[17:37]

Because this to me is often something that's very uncomfortable, where you're sitting down in a room, you're pouring your heart out, you're sharing your passion for leadership and for education. And the committee that's interviewing you is just kind of sitting there with kind of a frown on their face writing. You get no, you get none of that verbal and nonverbal feedback that we're used to. In some cases, they're not allowed to say anything at all. And that can be weird. And yet at the same time, I do think we have to kind of pay attention to whether we're being boring, whether we're going on too long, whether we're not giving enough.

[18:11]

What are some of the signals that people can look for in an interview? Yeah.

[18:17] SPEAKER_00:

Well, I think the first thing is to make eye contact with every single person around that table. And it's sometimes we gravitate to look at the person who's giving us the positive energy, maybe even if they're not supposed to. I haven't had that experience where people weren't giving positive energy because I always try to make people feel comfortable in an interview. I don't ascribe to the theory of not showing any emotion, but I guess there are people out there who do that. So I would make sure that I make eye contact with every single person as I'm talking and answering a question. And some people will give you, you'll get that feeling of positive energy, even from their eyes.

[18:58]

So I think that could be really helpful. I think the other thing that really makes a difference is if you can get the committee to laugh. Use humor, even if it's something simple. Early on, it'll resonate. you know, relax you a little bit and reduce your tension and it will lighten the mood for them as well. And people respond really well when they see that you have a sense of humor.

[19:22]

And that's a really important quality for someone who's going into a leadership job. So you really want to show that you have a sense of humor and use that in the interview.

[19:31] SPEAKER_02:

And I think we often forget, if we're the one being interviewed, that the interview committee has a very hard job. They're probably tired from doing their normal job all day. And then they're sitting through all these interviews, possibly several hours of interviews. And yeah, that laughter is a welcome break from the seriousness of the interview. That is fantastic.

[19:52] SPEAKER_00:

May I add just one other thing? And that's knowing their names. which can be really challenging depending on how many people are seated around that table. But I would bring a pad of paper and as they introduce themselves, make a diagram of the room and just jot their names down so that you can use people's names when you're responding to them.

[20:10] SPEAKER_02:

Absolutely. And I think if you can get a sense of what everyone's role is too, I mean, I would always find that very helpful to know, you know, who am I speaking to? Is this a parent? Is this a student representative or just the youngest teacher? Is this, you know, who are we speaking to here? Yeah.

[20:25]

Powerful. And I, yeah, I love that diagram idea where you kind of just draw the table and, and jot down the names. And then if you do get that flagging energy, you feel like no one's making eye contact with me. They're just all writing on their papers and not really looking at me while I answer, you know, use a name and you're going to get that eye contact.

[20:41] SPEAKER_00:

I think there's another thing you could do then too. And that might be just to simply pause and not feel like you have to keep talking so rapidly. Sometimes a pause in the conversation is makes people stop what they're doing and look up. That can be effective too.

[20:55] SPEAKER_02:

Well, one other issue, Jamie, that I feel like often comes up in interviews is that for people who are coming from the classroom or from an entirely non-supervisory role, often we're caught off guard by questions about how to work with conflict among adults, how to manage other adults. And if you are in the classroom full time, it's difficult to get a sense of perspective on that. And I wonder if you have any advice to share from us from your book, Less Stressed Business, a guide for hiring, coaching, and leading great employees on what does that work look like? So if I have not personally ever supervised other adults, what are some of the issues that I might want to think about based on your book, Less Stressed Business?

[21:36] SPEAKER_00:

That's such an interesting question because conflict happens in every school I've ever been in. And it it showed up a lot in my life as a teacher and as a principal. So in my book, I have seven, what I call the seven less stressed business practices. And even though it has business in the title, it's really a leadership book that a lot of educators have read it and found it to be very helpful, especially chapter seven, the last practice, which is confront dysfunction so your team can function. And in that chapter, I highlight a couple of dysfunctional communication patterns such as gossip in a school community. And what is the leader's role in that?

[22:21]

I know as a principal, I was challenged by that. People would come to me with gossip about one group or another. I actually, in my first year or two as principal, I had a grade level where teachers on one side of the hall were literally not talking to the teachers on the other side of the hall. And I knew that I couldn't lead the school effectively if this was the communication pattern that was going to continue. So I had to find a way to confront that. And that was one of the biggest challenges for me as a leader was to learn how to do that in my most effective way.

[22:56]

So that chapter of my book really gets to the heart of what is a leader's role in confronting dysfunction and how can we help to have a staff where people can communicate really honestly and with integrity with one another. Absolutely.

[23:13] SPEAKER_02:

And I think that almost gets at the idea of crossing over to the dark side when you become an administrator. And I think there's something real there that part of the reason it seems that way is that we are having to deal with some issues that we might prefer not to think about, like gossip, like conflict among people who are supposedly on the same team. And I think it is a, you know, a sign of a great leader who can can really confront those issues and, you know, still frame them in a positive way, but really not be afraid to tackle them and to address the dysfunction to, you know, to create high functioning teams. Well, Jamie, if people want to find out more about your work, where can they find you online?

[23:52] SPEAKER_00:

They could go to my website, which is less stress business dot com. And there is a lot of information there about me, about my coaching team. My blog can also be accessed there and a link to purchasing my book as well.

[24:05] SPEAKER_02:

Well, Jamie, thank you so much for joining me again on Principal Center Radio.

[24:08] SPEAKER_00:

Thank you for having me, Justin. It was great to talk with you again.

[24:12] SPEAKER_01:

And now, Justin Bader on high-performance instructional leadership.

[24:17] SPEAKER_02:

So high-performance instructional leaders, where does this sit with you? Are you looking for your next role? Are you moving from principal to a central office role, such as a superintendency? Or are you in the classroom looking for a leadership position to take your next step? Wherever you are, I hope you got some great advice from my interview with Jamie Cecil Turner. And if you are still kind of in the deciding phase, kind of figuring out what do I believe my best contribution is?

[24:47]

How do I want to make a difference in the lives of kids? And is that in the classroom? Is that in a leadership role or some other type of support role? As you're going through the process of getting that figured out, talk to other people, talk to your mentors, talk to your family. You may even engage a coach like Jamie in figuring out that process because you want to be clear and you want to go in right. with confidence and you don't want to get a year or two or three years down the road and realize actually you know this isn't what i wanted to do so get really clear on that and when you are at that stage where you've applied for jobs you have landed some interviews you want to reach that stage having prepared along the way so if you're listening to this and you have an interview coming up very soon i want to encourage you to turn off the podcast and go practice Practice with family members, with friends, ideally with colleagues who understand the school setting that you'll be applying for.

[25:39]

Practice, and download those 52 practice interview questions that we have on our website. So you can get those at principalscenter.com. And regardless of where you are in the process, I wanna challenge you to see it as a competition. And this is something that we are hesitant to do as educators because we're very collaborative by nature. But the admin job search process, any kind of leadership position is going to be competitive.

[26:03]

You're going to be competing with other real people who would like to have that same job, who would like to have that same opportunity. And you've got to make the case that you're the best person for that job. You've gotta go in with confidence, and with every advantage that you can give yourself in terms of the quality of your application, the quality of your preparation, your confidence, your presence, you've gotta go in prepared. So because that's kind of a tall order, I've made a free four-part video series called Ascend, and you can find that at principalcenter.com slash ascend. And I'll walk you through the process of searching for the right type of position, getting in a winning application so that you land an interview, acing that interview and winning the job.

[26:46]

So again, check that out at principalcenter.com slash ascend.

[26:50] Announcer:

Thanks for listening to Principal Center Radio. For more great episodes, subscribe on our website at principalcenter.com slash radio.