Deep in Thought: A Practical Guide to Teaching for Intellectual Virtues

[00:01] Announcer:

Welcome to Principal Center Radio, helping you build capacity for instructional leadership. Here's your host, Director of the Principal Center, Dr. Justin Bader. Welcome everyone to Principal Center Radio.

[00:13] SPEAKER_02:

I'm your host, Justin Bader, and I'm honored to be joined today by Jackie Bryant and Jason Baer. They are the co-founder and founding principal of Intellectual Virtues Academy, a middle school where the principles that we're going to talk about today, the virtues that we're going to talk about today are taught. And specifically, we're talking about Jason's book, Deep in Thought, A Practical Guide to Teaching for Intellectual Virtues.

[00:41] Announcer:

And now, our feature presentation.

[00:44] SPEAKER_02:

Jackie and Jason, welcome to Principal Center Radio. Thanks for having us. Delighted to be here.

[00:48] SPEAKER_00:

Yep, good to be here.

[00:49] SPEAKER_02:

Well, I'm excited to talk about this collaboration that you've had over the past couple of years because it's resulted not only in this book, but also in an actual school where students learn the intellectual virtues that we're going to discuss today. Jason, I understand you are a philosophy professor at Loyola Marymount University, and you've written books. quite extensively on intellectual virtues and virtue epistemology. Before we get into the student side, I wonder if you could set up for us just a little bit. What is virtue epistemology and what are intellectual virtues?

[01:23] SPEAKER_01:

Sure. So virtue epistemology is an approach to the philosophical study of knowledge that gives a special emphasis to the personal qualities or character attributes that one needs in order to be a good thinker or a good learner or a good pursuer and acquirer of knowledge. And those attributes are known as intellectual virtues, and they include qualities like curiosity, open-mindedness, intellectual courage, intellectual humility, and so on.

[01:56] SPEAKER_02:

Well, I'm very excited to talk about the collaboration that you've had over the past few years. Jackie, what has it meant to be principal of a school where intellectual virtues are central?

[02:07] SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I think my first response is before the school was founded, when there was a charter petition put out and there were two options to sign whether you would teach at the school or send your child to the school, I immediately, just by a description of intellectual virtues, I immediately threw my name on the send my child to the school. But then I think I got a little... overwhelmed because the language of the virtues suddenly brought into perspective for me what I might have meant when, as an English teacher, I was trying to teach for critical thinking or I was trying to make an impact that would change students' lives or that very elusive love of learning. So just by the description of intellectual virtues and the possibility that it would be a school and that would be the foundation of

[03:01]

what it meant to educate students, I think I seriously hyperventilated and was like, how can I be involved? Because this makes so much sense. The language immediately named what I hadn't been able to name before.

[03:15] SPEAKER_02:

So just very quickly, I want to run through the list so people know what we're talking about here, and then we'll talk about them in some more detail. So the virtues are listed in one of the appendices of the book, and these will sound familiar to our listeners. Curiosity, autonomy, humility, attentiveness, carefulness, thoroughness open-mindedness courage and tenacity and i wonder if we could talk for just a moment about what it is that makes something an intellectual virtue compared to something that's not or something that we might think of like jackie as you said critical thinking you know there are lots of habits and dispositions that we want students to have what specifically makes something an intellectual virtue well the first thing i'd say is that it has to be an attribute of of personal character

[03:58] SPEAKER_01:

And that differentiates intellectual virtues from things like knowledge, knowing a lot. You can know a lot, but have mediocre intellectual character. Similarly, that differentiates intellectual virtues from mere skills, including critical thinking skills, because I can have good thinking skills, but not use them or not have a good sense of how to use them. So intellectual virtues are character attributes that are useful for the pursuit or the transmission of knowledge and learning. They're the character traits that we need to be good thinkers and learners. They involve skills, but they aren't reducible to skills.

[04:43]

Likewise, they're different from kind of natural intellectual ability. So you can have someone who is very intellectually gifted, has a very high IQ, but who's narrow minded or intellectually lazy or intellectually arrogant. And you don't have to be a natural genius in order to be open minded and curious and intellectually tenacious and so on.

[05:05] SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, and it strikes me that these are all, I wouldn't say things you can do, but they're ways you can approach something, right? Ways you can approach your learning, ways as adults that we approach our work with attentiveness, carefulness, thoroughness, open-mindedness, and so on. Early on in the book, you say there are three key characteristics of the structure of intellectual virtues, and we've already talked about skill. What are the other two components of the structure of an intellectual virtue?

[05:33] SPEAKER_01:

Right. I'll illustrate the answer with an example. So take open mindedness. The skill that's proper to open mindedness is the skill or ability involved with being able to sort of switch perspectives. Think about things from different points of view. Well, again, I can have that skill, but not be motivated to use it.

[05:52]

So intellectual virtues also have a motivational dimension in the sense that they involve being motivated to use certain virtue-specific skills. But I could be motivated to be open-minded and I could have the ability to be open-minded. But if I don't also have good judgment about when to be open-minded or how much or toward whom, then my open-mindedness wouldn't really be a virtue. So in addition to the skill component, intellectual virtues also have a motivational component and a judgment component.

[06:28] SPEAKER_02:

Oh, that judgment component is really interesting, especially when it comes to teaching students to use the virtues, because it occurs to me, like now that you've said that, it occurs to me that any of these taken to excess would be a problem, right? Like if you are too open-minded, you know, and don't learn your multiplication facts because you want to continue to be open-minded about, you know, there's an extreme that we don't want to go to here. Jackie, I wonder if you could talk a little bit about how students are given opportunities to develop that judgment? Because certainly, you know, people, we would all agree that we want our students to be curious and practice humility and attentiveness and so on. What does that look like on a day-to-day basis to teach students to actually use good judgment in practicing those virtues?

[07:16] SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I think I might have too much to say about this. But the first is that teachers get into education because they want to develop these things in students. So there are there are tools that teachers have that when they're really aimed at developing students thinking and learning, they are aimed at growing students good practices and habits. their virtues. So a lot of the things I might say are what you might think, oh, that's just good teaching or, oh, that's just what we're drawn to as educators anyway, but I will list, I will list them. The opportunities that we give our students to think well, I think it begins in the teachers that we select or bring in to the school.

[07:59]

So we're looking for teachers who themselves are can be reflective and want to grow in the way that they think. And what comes with that is a sense of flexibility and making adjustments and taking risks. And so there's a little bit of letting go of control or being like the only one that has the knowledge. There's an invitation to active, engaged learning. Which is really common. It's what we all want to do.

[08:24]

But then we also select curriculum that allows us to go deeply into the subject. So the teacher's passion for their content and them seeing the content as if it is a really elegant, beautiful, deep, complex subject field that they can invite students into experiencing. practicing the habits that are required by that field. It really helps if we have curriculum that is not the kind of thing, when I was teaching English, that the textbooks would, here's a story to read, and then here's all the comprehension questions. And I really felt like I was getting further and into practicing good habits when we had things like Socratic seminars. But sometimes the curriculum we have doesn't allow us to get there.

[09:12]

We have to create those opportunities ourselves. And so then I think I need to mention that a lot of the work out of Harvard's Project Zero and the writing of Ron Richhart and Mark Church, some of their books, Making Thinking Visible, has given us the instructional tools to be able to invite students into opportunities for thinking so that we don't default to where we were trained as teachers to just deliver content well. Instead, we are making sure that we are asking really deep questions, giving students opportunities to not only think for themselves, but listen to each other and be moved by the contribution of each other and this like group pursuit into seeking out knowledge. So there's a whole variety of ways that we give students opportunities

[10:04]

to practice virtues. And then because our school is founded on intellectual virtues, we also have other pieces in place where, I mean, there's our advisory hour where students learn what curiosity is and they think about curiosity. And that sort of, if that was forced into a class, it wouldn't fit right because we don't want to just learn about curiosity. We want to practice curiosity because we're doing these experiments and we didn't expect the results.

[10:33] SPEAKER_02:

Right, you don't wanna have a unit on attentiveness or you don't wanna do attentiveness in September and curiosity in October. These are woven throughout every subject, right?

[10:42] SPEAKER_00:

Exactly, exactly. So we have those benefits. And I think you asked about when we're giving opportunities and I'm sure there'll be other questions that you ask that get me here, but I can't overemphasize the impact of our professional development model because our teachers and staff go into a professional development where we try to understand what the right question is. We try to find resources that challenge and give us the complexity of what we're pursuing together. And then we use thinking routines like we do in the classes. We're developing an adult culture who is constantly practicing intellectual virtues together and then feel more equipped to take those risks with students in class.

[11:28]

So all that combined works.

[11:30] SPEAKER_02:

Well, looking over the list of intellectual virtues that I read earlier, none of these are especially controversial. I don't think most people would quibble with any of them, but I would have to guess that they're not taught everywhere. What does it look like when some of these virtues are absent and how did that inform what you wrote in the book and or what you do at Intellectual Virtues Academy?

[11:51] SPEAKER_01:

Well, certainly, you know, we can look out to our society as a whole right now and the quality of public discourse and just the overall polarization and see a glaring absence of things like intellectual humility or curiosity or open mindedness. But honestly, that kind of civic dimension to teaching for intellectual virtues is wasn't a big part of what kind of motivated my interest in it. I think if we were creating this school in 2020 or 2021, that would be a bigger part of it because the need for these qualities in public life is so conspicuous right now. But to talk about what they contrast with

[12:43]

And Justin, this goes back to something you alluded to earlier. Aristotle is famous for what's known as the doctrine of the mean or the golden mean, where every virtue is a mean or midpoint between two vices, one of excess and one of deficiency. And so I do think it's a really useful way to get to understand these virtues to consider what they would look like in excess or in deficiency. So to take one example, intellectual humility. An excess of intellectual humility might be someone who's really self-deprecating or just thinks that they can't really know or learn or do anything. They have an excessive view of their intellectual limitations or weaknesses.

[13:31]

On the other hand, the deficiency is maybe a little more familiar. The deficiency of intellectual humility would be something like intellectual arrogance, thinking that you're always right or not having a realistic sense of your own fallibility as a thinker or a learner. And so intellectual humility is the sweet spot between those. It's a matter of appropriately attending to and being willing to own our intellectual limitations and mistakes and weaknesses. Another way to think about what an absence of these qualities looks like that's a little more subtle would be to think about some of the values that dominate a lot of classrooms, like competition or always getting the answer right. So if I, as a teacher, am only looking for right answers from my students,

[14:22]

that is going to disincentivize, or if I get my students to compete with each other, there's a sort of culture of competition in my classroom, that is going to disincentivize a willingness to admit what you don't know and a willingness to admit when you're unsure, when you need help. It's probably going to facilitate a kind of overconfidence. Similarly, I think some classroom environments aren't very conducive to intellectual courage. If I, as a student, feel like I've got to get the answer right and I've got to sort of be better than my peers, that might really prevent me from taking intellectual risks. By contrast, if I'm in a classroom or with a teacher who I know values trying and effort and exploration and risk-taking, that will incentivize

[15:17]

the practice of intellectual courage or risk-taking. It'll practice, it'll incentivize a willingness to sort of step back and wonder, curiosity, a willingness to admit when I don't know, intellectual humility, a willingness to consider things from multiple points of view, open-mindedness, and so on.

[15:33] SPEAKER_02:

One question that stands out to me is around the kind of collaborative or collective nature of these, because I would say they're worded in kind of individual terms, right? They're things that I, as an individual practice, But I'm curious how they show up in terms of students working together. And we've talked a little bit about faculty practicing the virtues, but clearly a virtue like open-mindedness lends itself to listening to others, to working well in a group. What are some other ways that the virtues show up when students are working together in class?

[16:07] SPEAKER_00:

I also want to say that when I began thinking about the intellectual virtues and applying them to myself, they felt like very individual practices. And I think I don't know, they may begin there for some people like we have. I have to I have to understand that I have limitations if I'm going to in my community practice. ask a question or seek out other people's advice. But it really does fascinate me that such virtues defined as individual growth areas very quickly create a culture and a community in the classroom. So I mean, as you've said, if we value risk-taking and we value struggle, because we have the language of the virtues that tells us that this is how we will grow in our thinking, that there are approved practices as a community.

[17:02]

Then in the classroom, students are okay saying when they don't understand something and the teacher then is so excited that the student doesn't understand something and can verbalize that, which only then reinforces that it's okay to not know and it's okay to be in a community and learn. I think that, I mean, as we would all hope, our classrooms are very active places, but where students are talking, where we're noticing patterns of participation and making sure that all students are able to have access to be engaged in thinking and communicating with each other. But I think something that might be very distinct because of the language of the virtues and the foundation of our school is that students have access to being reflective out loud to each other. I think I hear students say things like, I actually don't know the right answer here because it's on the wall that it's okay to not know the right answer.

[18:00]

So some of the self-reflective language that students have in community to each other then reinforces the way that we interact with each other and value a culture of community of thinking together.

[18:11] SPEAKER_01:

In thinking about the kind of social aspects or interpersonal aspects of the virtues, we can look at the application of the virtues. And I do think that all of the virtues have some kind of interpersonal application. I can be curious about why you think something, or I can be curious about why you would see the world in this very different way from how I see it. Certainly intellectual humility can manifest in how I respond to other people. Oh, that's a good point. I think you're right.

[18:42]

I think I'm mistaken. And then, as you said, open-mindedness as well. But there's also a kind of social or interpersonal origin of humility. the virtues in the sense that my willingness to think outside the box or to consider that I might be mistaken or to take intellectual risks is going to depend on whether I feel like I am in a safe and caring and respectful environment. And so the interpersonal conditions of a classroom or learning environment have to be right in in order for students to take risks and consider things from alternative points of view to practice these virtues. So I think the virtues are interpersonal in their application and also in their origins.

[19:32] SPEAKER_00:

And I really want to add to that at the beginning of the year when we as a staff before school begins and we're distracted by all the things in the moment, when we have time to read together and think together and every year we look back at what is intellectual character, what are intellectual virtues and what are the beliefs that we have as educators that that would reveal that we see value in those. So we talk each year at the beginning of the year to reframe ourselves. What is my belief about the ability for students to grow in who they are and how they practice? What's my belief in the ability for students to all be able to contribute into a classroom? And I think it helps us I think it helps us stave off that inevitable tiredness of teachers when it's like, but this kid is not contributing.

[20:25]

This kid is just a distraction. So when we know we're in the right place as a staff, we speak with dignity about every student and their ability to contribute and also respect. what they might be struggling with versus, oh, how frustrating this student's behavior is. So it's very interesting to me that the language of the virtues and the goal of intellectual character education reframes our patience with students and the way that we believe in human nature and growth.

[20:59] SPEAKER_01:

To piggyback on what Jackie just said, I think she's getting at The fact that this kind of framework for thinking about teaching and learning is ultimately a very purposeful one and a hopeful one. So I think it's aspirational and it holds out a certain deeper personal meaning and purpose that are possible within academic learning. And I think that can be very edifying for students and for teachers themselves.

[21:36] SPEAKER_02:

Well, I appreciate that the book is written as, as the subtitle says, a practical guide for teaching the intellectual virtues. If you could give school leaders just one piece of advice each on getting started, in addition to picking up the book and of course reading it, what would be your main piece of advice for school leaders who say, you know, this sounds great. I would love for our students to practice the intellectual virtues. What action on the part of leaders would make the biggest difference?

[22:02] SPEAKER_00:

I think the advice I would give is take a look at a list of intellectual virtues and assess for yourself which ones you feel like you're practicing naturally or have been growing in lately and which ones you want to grow in. I think it begins with realizing, like adult learning theory, like realizing that if learning is good, it'll be good for me also. And then I guess from there, If that is a first self-reflection opportunity, then how can I give this opportunity to teachers? How can I give this opportunity to students? And then I think that would hold us back from prescribing something onto anybody.

[22:46] SPEAKER_01:

I'm a teacher. I have a lot of experience teaching. I don't have experience administrating, so I feel less comfortable giving advice to administrators. So I'll just kind of give another, what I think is another version of what Jackie said. I think first, step back and ask yourself, what are you after here? What are you aiming for?

[23:09]

And which virtues kind of best capture that? And what do you mean by those virtues, the terms you're using to describe those virtues? So getting kind of a rich, detailed idea of the goal, one. And then secondly, really taking a step back and evaluating the various components of the educational program at your school to see, how well they're aligned with that goal. So thinking about things like the curriculum or the dominant instructional practices or other school-wide practices or professional development and asking sort of doing an inventory of how well these things are aligned with or not aligned with that aim or goal and then working from there to sort of try to work at better aligning some of those key components.

[24:06]

I think one thing that Jackie's response and my response both illustrate is that this is a holistic educational approach. It's not a matter of a single practice, let alone a single intervention. It is a holistic approach to education. That can seem intimidating to people and many of your listeners might feel like, well, I don't have enough autonomy or freedom to affect all those variables to help them align with the goal of helping my students grow in intellectual virtues. And to that, I'll just say, well, while it is a holistic approach, it can be implemented in degrees over time. It's not you're either implementing every aspect of the approach or you're not.

[24:57]

It's about what progress can I make? What changes can I make to better align what's going on at my school and some of the fundamental values and practices with the aim of intellectual character growth?

[25:11] SPEAKER_00:

I also want to add that when families come and take a tour of the school or when there's an information night and families are seeing like, are we interested in this school for our students? Even when there's a night for students, I see how quickly people are drawn to the language that defines things they've been after. all along. So I might say to students, like, we don't want to define you based on the music that you listen to. We don't want to define you based on your letter grades, but you have an opportunity to name the areas of your life, the areas of your intellectual thinking practice where you're strong and to know yourself better. And that same sort of speech to parents, I think, gives

[26:03]

automatic tools, like the language gives tools that parents are after anyway. And for a parent to be able to say in this decision of what middle school to send my child to, I am practicing intellectual humility and then say it out loud to strangers in a room. It feels like already people have walked away with something that is equipping and naming in what they've been trying to pursue. I feel like it's nothing new. It just gives us the it gives us the proper name and definition to be able to know it better.

[26:39] SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and it's a definition and these are terms that are concrete. Kindergarteners can understand what curiosity and open-mindedness are. It's concrete, it's specific, but it's also value-laden in the sense that people who are open-minded and intellectually courageous are attractive people. We want to be like that. We want our friends to be like that. So the language is so useful because it's both concrete and specific, but also inspirational or evaluative.

[27:11] SPEAKER_02:

So the book is Deep in Thought, A Practical Guide for Teaching for Intellectual Virtues. Jackie Bryant and Jason Baer, thank you so much for joining me on Principal Center Radio. It's been a pleasure.

[27:22] SPEAKER_01:

You're welcome and thank you so much for having us.

[27:24] Announcer:

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