[00:01] SPEAKER_02:
Welcome to Principal Center Radio, bringing you the best in professional practice.
[00:06] Announcer:
Here's your host, Director of the Principal Center and Champion of High Performance Instructional Leadership, Dustin Bader. Welcome, everyone, to Principal Center Radio.
[00:15] SPEAKER_00:
I'm your host, Justin Bader, and I'm honored to be joined today by my guest, Jen Schwanke. Jen is a principal in the Dublin City School District in Dublin, Ohio, a graduate instructor in educational leadership. She's written frequently for literacy and educational leadership publications, and she blogs about her experiences in learning and leading at jenschwanke.com.
[00:37] Announcer:
And now, our feature presentation.
[00:40] SPEAKER_00:
Jen, welcome to Principal Center Radio.
[00:41] SPEAKER_01:
So nice to be here, Justin. Thank you.
[00:43] SPEAKER_00:
So we're here to talk about your new book, You're the Principal, Now What? Strategies and Solutions for New School Leaders. I wonder if we could start by having you share a little bit about what inspired you to write this book with ASCD, You're the Principal, Now What? What brought you to that topic?
[01:00] SPEAKER_01:
Sure. I had settled into being a principal, and I just loved the job. And I had found my footing, so to speak. I was feeling really confident about it. But it's a job where you learn something every single day. You make mistakes all the time.
[01:13]
And it's really important to be able to reflect on those mistakes and admit where you made a mistake or could have done something differently and move on. And I started to think back when I was a new principal. You know, my first year, my first couple years, I was so lucky because I had fantastic mentors. I was hired by a rock star principal that taught me so much and then worked as an assistant for a couple of other very, very good administrators. And I. I got to thinking, you know, if I hadn't had them, I would have really, it would have taken me quite a bit longer to feel like I understood the job.
[01:48]
So it just occurred to me, you know, there's not much out there for those people in the brand new school leaders in their first few years. So I kind of reached out to ASCD and asked if they might consider a proposal, and we went from there.
[02:02] SPEAKER_00:
Well, and I know a problem a lot of school leaders have starting out is just there's nothing to do. You're bored. You don't have any priorities to pursue. Yeah. No, you know, thinking back to my first couple of weeks or first couple of months as a new principal, you know, there's an infinite number of things that you could be worried about that you could be focused on. So what are some of the touchstones for you of, you know, how do we get our feet under us in a new role?
[02:26]
And I know that the same can be true whether you're new to the principalship or just new to your school. What are some of the anchors for kind of getting your feet under you and figuring out the job, figuring out what needs to be done first?
[02:38] SPEAKER_01:
You know, that is a huge question there, and I could go any number of ways. The number one anchor for me, the thing I would encourage new school leaders, is don't be impulsive about anything in those first few weeks. Just wait. And the reason I say that is so many people, when there's a new principal there, whether it's teachers, parents, or staff, they want to get to the new principal and tell them, okay, here's the problem we need to fix. Here's the problem we need to fix. And you begin to feel like this tree with woodpeckers all around you, and you don't know what to do.
[03:08]
And I would just say, you know, you don't need to do anything. You just need to wait, listen, learn. I often, you know, when I'm mentoring a new principal, I say the loudest voices in the first few days are not the voices you listen to. Just because they're loud, they are not necessarily right or accurate or on point. So the big anchor for me is wait, listen, learn, ask questions. And then over time, you'll be able to make the kind of decisions that will be respected, thoughtful, mindful, and actually the right decisions to make.
[03:41] SPEAKER_00:
And I think that's such a powerful antidote to the myth in our profession that good leaders look at data and then are decisive leaders. And I've seen a lot of people step into the principalship and look at data or maybe even look at the data before they're hired and say, okay, I know what this school needs, so I'm going to hit the ground running and I'm just going to do what needs to be done from day one. And when they do that, without getting to know the school, without getting to know the people who make up that school, without understanding the culture, without respecting the work that's already being done, often, you know, I've seen people just kind of really start off on the wrong foot by pushing for too much change too quickly in a situation that they don't quite understand yet.
[04:22] SPEAKER_01:
Well, that's exactly it, Justin. The truth is this nation, I would argue, had a love affair with data for a while that made some people go way, way too far the other way. And they would look at the data. They'd look at the state report card. They would get the numbers memorized in their head and think, OK, I know where to approach it. But data is a snapshot.
[04:42]
of a very, very, very large photo album. And the thing to do is get into a school and get to know the people, get to know the kids, get to know the situations in which tests may be given. Learn what all the hundreds of things that led to a data point before you make any decisions based on that. Sometimes schools are made up of staff that have been deeply injured by too much focus on data or impulsive decision making. And in that case, the first step is to let them heal and to build trust and to talk to them about who you are as a leader, not go in there and make, you know, these impulsive, wide sweeping decisions that aren't based on a really deep, thoughtful look at what the school actually needs.
[05:27] SPEAKER_00:
And I'm so glad you added that last part there about letting people know who you are as a leader, because as I look back on how I came into my school and the things that I did right off the bat, I put a lot of effort into learning who other people were and getting to know them and respecting where they were. in their career and what the strengths of the school were. But what I didn't do a good job of is letting people know who I was and what I brought to it. And I found a couple years into it, honestly, that people had assumed that I was this very hard-nosed, data-driven person. I was like, have you been paying attention? And I realized it's not their job to pay attention to who I am.
[06:05]
It's my job to communicate that. But it took me a long time to realize that.
[06:10] SPEAKER_01:
Well, and I think a lot of new school leaders are scared to be themselves because there's this perception that school leaders are this school marm or this headmaster and we have to be tough and impossible to penetrate and we have to have, in my case, high heels and suits and this dour look on my face. But that isn't me at all and never will be. And once I figured out that I was the most effective as a school leader when I was myself, that's when I feel like I hit my stride. And, you know, I every time I started in a new building this past year, actually, my district made some changes. And so I was placed in a different elementary school. And my number one priority was relaxing, being myself and projecting that attitude onto the teachers and the staff and the parents, because, you know, nobody can be someone they're not long term.
[07:03]
So you might as well go in and be who you are and let them know you as the person you are. And then everybody will you know, the trusting relationships will happen a lot more quickly.
[07:12] SPEAKER_00:
And I'm glad you made that connection to trust, because I think there's such a tight relationship between being who you are and being trustworthy. And I think at a very fundamental level, you know, if people think that we're trying to act tough or live up to some persona that we think it's our job to kind of fulfill, and yet they can see that that's not who we are. I think that's, you know, kind of a kind of a warning sign for people on trust. And, you know, Looking back on the messages that I tried to convey about myself, honestly, it would have been a lot easier to be myself and to say, hey, look, this is a big job. I know that the job, you know, entails being decisive about certain things, but it's my, you know, it's my approach to life to really be thoughtful about, you know, hearing from lots of different parties. And rather than try to just look decisive when that wasn't my approach to just make what I would consider kind of a hasty decision, just to be transparent with people and say, hey, here is how I approach this.
[08:10]
I understand that it is important for me to make a decision on this, but I want you to know that I do that by doing X, Y, Z. This is my approach. And just sharing that way of thinking that often is invisible to people. And we assume that other people know why we're doing what we're doing, but often, of course, They need us to be clear on that.
[08:27] SPEAKER_01:
It's such a good point, Justin. I think a lot of times leaders don't really stop and think about the responsibility that we have in leading people because we see people at their best, but also at their most vulnerable. And also when they're scared, when they're sick, when they're feeling like they're not doing a good job. Working with kids, working with students is a very tricky job and teachers need a leader who understands that it's a tricky job and teachers need to know you can go to the principal and share the best and the worst of you at any given time and that the principal, the school leader, will be okay with that and say, you know, here's my perspective with transparency. Here's what I think we should do. Here's what my steps would be going forward.
[09:11]
What do you think? And make it a conversation that really is between two people who care about the same thing.
[09:17] SPEAKER_00:
And what do you see as some of the soft skills that are most critical? Because if I look at the training that's out there, the programs that people go through to become administrators, one thing that stood out in my training but that I think is lacking in training in a lot of programs for school administrators is those soft skills. What are some of the most important skills for administrators to really capitalize on in the first few months in a new role?
[09:42] SPEAKER_01:
I agree with you. I think that principal preparation programs can be stale at best and detrimental at worst. I think the soft skills are the ones we should talk about more. I think just basic empathy kindness, focus on students. It's such a cliche. People will say, well, what's best for the students?
[10:04]
But you really have to believe deep in your gut that every decision you make is the best one for kids. I think communication is huge. I think when we hire new school leaders, we should really focus on can they communicate verbally, written, non-verbally, how we project what we're saying to the universe around us is huge and we need school leaders who are really cognizant of that. So those basic soft skills are some that can't necessarily be taught. But they're the ones that will carry you through a successful school leadership journey.
[10:42] SPEAKER_00:
Absolutely. Well, in the book, you have a couple of different scenarios for different occasions when we might be called upon to use those skills. In the book, what are some of the scenarios that you share or the issues that people can kind of look up? If this happens to them, they can jump into the book.
[11:00] SPEAKER_01:
You hit on exactly what I wanted the book format to be, which was somewhere they can jump in. I don't necessarily see this book as one you'd sit down and read cover to cover. We have it organized into 18 different chapters, and these chapters are all problems you might encounter, so to speak. So For example, there is a chapter on managing angry parents. And this has happened to every principal. But there's like three different scenarios.
[11:25]
And one of them is, you know, you're standing there, you're having a cup of coffee with a colleague and your secretary comes to you and says, oh, boy, we have a parent and she's mad and she isn't leaving. And, you know, the scenario kind of talks the reader through ways that you can diffuse the situation, maybe deflect the situation until everybody's calmer and some, you know, just some phrases that you can talk through to come to a mutual understanding with this parent. So each chapter does have scenarios that are based on the problem, and then embedded in the chapter are some bullet points or suggestions to consider. Other chapters include student discipline, supporting staff, hiring and retaining staff, managing your school facility, lots of different areas of focus, and each one contains three different scenarios that might happen actually in real life to a school leader.
[12:19] SPEAKER_00:
I love that. I was thinking back to this giant book that I had on my shelf as a principal that was, I think, had been recommended by the special education teacher for dealing with different student behavior issues. And it had 500 or so different student behavior problems and kind of intervention plans. And I feel like we need that for ourselves. So I'm really glad that you've written this book.
[12:40] SPEAKER_01:
We do, and this is a pretty bulky book because of that exact thing. Principals have so many different areas they're expected to be experts in, and it's very difficult, especially in those first few years, to feel like you have a handle on all of them. And so that's what these scenarios are meant to be. It's meant to identify, accept, and offer solutions for any number of problems that might pop up.
[13:09] SPEAKER_00:
I think that's such a powerful scaffold, you know, because I think if, you know, if any of us were to sit down and kind of consider that, you know, one of those scenarios and think, okay, what would I do in this situation? You know, we might come up with very similar lists. We might come up with very similar approaches. But the challenge, I think, especially in a new role or especially anytime when you're just slammed is you don't have the time to do all of that thinking. Right. I mean, and we've we've had some training.
[13:38]
We've had some preparation. We have professional experience. But just to have it have it there on paper and have what I would just call a strategy at the principal center. I teach that high performance comes from a combination of strategy, tools and habits. And as we get our feet under us, as we settle into a routine, we get those habits for how do I deal with an angry parent? How do I deal with a disruptive student?
[13:58]
How do I deal with a request from the central office? You know, we get those habits. We get our tools working with us. But often we can get a huge head start by just having a good and well thought through plan. So I really appreciate that you've laid those out for us.
[14:14] SPEAKER_01:
Yeah. And, you know, there's there's so many times, too, I think that new school leaders, they assume there's a there's a direction they should go. So, for example, a teacher comes to a principal and says, this parent's mad at me and I don't know what I did. And they're going to cut this parent's going to come to you. And it's easy for new principals to think, well, I have to support the teacher no matter what. I cannot, you know, I have to make sure that this teacher is supported.
[14:37]
And we really have to look at what that means. Supporting a teacher does not necessarily mean saying to the parent, sorry, you're wrong, get out of here. It might mean saying, you know, you're right, and we're going to work on this. And then going back to the teacher and saying, let's reflect on how we could have done things differently. So words that principals hear a lot, like, is this principal supportive? that is easy to misunderstand and go the wrong way with.
[15:02]
So I wanted to have some scenarios where I offered solutions that weren't necessarily ones that every principal would use, but that kind of humanized the situation and made it very clear there's two perspectives on every single problem, at least two, maybe more, and we need to consider those and just make the best decision that we can.
[15:25] SPEAKER_00:
Yeah, and I think that's something that often catches us off guard, that when we're in that decision-making role, there can be multiple people who have conflicting proposals, conflicting ideas about the course of action we should take, and they're both doing the right thing. They're both good people. They both have good ideas. There's not a right party and a wrong party, and yet there's still a decision that has to be made.
[15:52] SPEAKER_01:
Exactly. And it's also people come to the table passionate about their perspectives. They really, really feel like they're right. And like you said, a lot of times they are. And identifying that right away, you know, I've been in many, many meetings where I've said, listen, nobody is here with ill intent. Everybody's here because we really believe that we have a solution that will work for everyone.
[16:14]
We really believe in our students and we're all trying to do the right thing. So let's all applaud one another for that. And then see if we can come to some middle ground.
[16:23] SPEAKER_00:
Well, Jen, I wonder if we could get into a specific type of situation. And let's say a discipline situation. We know we face all kinds of different discipline situations as administrators. They can throw us for a loop. What are some of the scenarios that you've outlined in the book for discipline and how we can handle different types of situations that might come up?
[16:42] SPEAKER_01:
Okay, the discipline is just part of our job, and it's just something we have to do. And, you know, new school leaders are often faced with a discipline situation that has happened. It's right there, and you've got to deal with it right away. So I address behavior and discipline issues in Chapter 9, and the chapter starts out, as the others do, with three scenarios. The first is a scenario in which there's a fight. You...
[17:08]
There's a fight. You react. You tell both parents. You deliver the consequences appropriately. And that evening, you go home and you, of course, check your email. And you have kind of a nasty rebuttal from one of the parents.
[17:20]
And you have to respond. And so then, you know, at the conclusion of the chapter, after I've kind of worked through some suggestions, I actually have a potential email that a principal could respond and address the parents' concerns. rebuttal point by point. Another scenario in that chapter is we call it sticky fingers and you know this is where a middle schooler gets sent to the office and you have to figure out why she's sent and then the conversation that happens at the end of the chapter is figuring out that this student actually decided to take something that wasn't hers and you kind of work through the discipline procedure and process with the student. And then also in Chapter 9, this third scenario is a behavior plan. You know, you've got a student and things just are not working consistently, making poor choices.
[18:08]
And so we have an example of a behavior plan that includes triggers for the behaviors, rewards for not engaging in those behaviors, and indicators of success. In any of those situations, a fight, a theft, or writing a behavior plan, the chapter offers specific practical responses to each of the scenarios.
[18:32] SPEAKER_00:
Well, I love the way you basically model that for people. These are all complex human situations. No two situations are exactly the same. There's no behavior plan that's going to meet the needs of every student. So we will always have our work cut out for us. But what I love about the resource that you've created is how much of a head start it gives us on that thinking.
[18:52]
Thinking through things that... I know my biggest...
[18:56]
flaw as a leader is just not anticipating, you know, not anticipating, oh, if I say yes to this person, I'm saying no to that person. Or if we make the behavior plan and leave out this particular element that it might not work, just seeing how you've thought through so many of those issues based on your experience and based on the work that you've done over the years, I think is tremendously valuable.
[19:16] SPEAKER_01:
And the thing about being a leader is oftentimes you're standing there and things are going perfectly well and then everything blows up. Like I said, there's a fight or there's a problem that you didn't anticipate. You can't really ever see what's coming. And so the key is to stay calm, wait, think. And, you know, make sure that you are reacting in an appropriate way.
[19:37] SPEAKER_00:
Yeah. And having a plan, I think, is such a powerful head start again. Yes. So the book is You're the Principal, Now What? Strategies and Solutions for New School Leaders. And Jen, if people want to connect with you online, where's the best place for them to find you?
[19:52] SPEAKER_01:
Well, they can find me on Twitter at Jen Schwanke and on Instagram at Jen Schwanke. And I also have a blog that I... frequently post just little things I'm thinking about, about being a leader. And that is at jenchwonky.com.
[20:07]
So they can find me there at any time. And I'm loving sharing the joys and the struggles and the challenges of being a leader.
[20:16] SPEAKER_00:
Well, thank you so much, Jen. It has been a pleasure to speak with you today on Principal Center Radio.
[20:20] SPEAKER_01:
Thank you so much, Justin.
[20:22] SPEAKER_02:
And now, Justin Bader on High Performance Instructional Leadership.
[20:31] SPEAKER_00:
So high performance instructional leaders, what did you take away from my conversation with Jen? One thing that really struck me as we were talking about her 345 page book filled with scenarios of the challenges that we face as school leaders and how we might approach them is the power of strategy, the power of having a plan. And I think one of the realities of being a school leader is that we're always going to have to adapt. We're always going to have to figure out the nuances of the particular situation and never just slap on a predetermined solution, but always really engage with the people around us, engage with the fact pattern of the situation and make a decision. But it's so powerful to start with a good plan. And it's so helpful to have a detailed outline of the bases that you need to cover.
[21:21]
Because again, as I mentioned in our interview, often we forget things and we do the best we can in the moment. But just having an outline to follow, having the bases covered, and then being able to pull from those examples from those scenarios as Jen outlines in her book is incredibly powerful. And I think for any area where we want to achieve high performance, We want to make sure that we're bringing all three of these components and combining them. And those are strategy, tools, and habits. And if you're interested in improving your strategy, tools, and habits in any area of your leadership, I want to invite you to check out our professional membership at the Principal Center. You can go to principalcenter.com join and learn about our webinars, our online courses, our tech tutorials that will help you develop the systems you need in terms of strategies, tools, and habits for addressing the challenges you face.
[22:14]
So I hope you check out Jen's book, You're the Principal, Now What? Strategies and Solutions for New School Leaders. Even if you're not a new leader, even if you've got plenty of experience under your belt, just having that resource on your desk, on your bookshelf can be a tremendous asset. So check it out. And thanks so much for joining me for Principal Center Radio.
[22:33] Announcer:
Thanks for listening to Principal Center Radio. For more great episodes, subscribe on our website at principalcenter.com slash radio.
