The Principal's Toolbox: Real Talk on Tackling School Leadership

[00:01] Announcer:

Welcome to Principal Center Radio, helping you build capacity for instructional leadership. Here's your host, Director of the Principal Center, Dr. Justin Bader. Welcome everyone to Principal Center Radio.

[00:13] SPEAKER_01:

I'm your host, Justin Bader, and I'm honored to be joined today by Dr. Justin Thomas. Dr. Thomas is an elementary principal in the Nashville area who believes that the keys to success revolve around growth and gratitude. The idea is that all members of a school can get better and that a spirit of thankfulness is key to a strong culture. Dr. Thomas is the author of The Principal's Toolbox, Real Talk on Tackling School Leadership.

[00:38] Announcer:

And now, our feature presentation.

[00:41] SPEAKER_01:

Justin, welcome to Principal Center Radio.

[00:42] SPEAKER_00:

Thank you, sir. I appreciate you having me.

[00:44] SPEAKER_01:

I'm excited to talk about some of the big ideas in the book, as well as the very specific recommendations that you make. To kick things off, I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about what prompted you to write and put together the Principal's Toolbox.

[00:57] SPEAKER_00:

Well, I found myself, you know, encountering a lot of sort of novel and unique situations. And you sort of scratch your head and joke with your colleagues. They didn't teach us this in principal school. And much of the preparation you receive in graduate programs and leader preparation is around some predictable items. And they're definitely necessary. But as I realized that there were things that newcomers or aspiring principals didn't would never be posed with or challenged to think about ahead of time, that if I could create something that didn't necessarily always give the answer, but at least introduce people to the themes, they could grapple with those things and think about them in a workshop study, talking to a friend over coffee, to really engage their brain and just be going in a direction to think about those things before they had to do it in real life.

[01:46]

And there's nothing like the actual experience, but I think that priming yourself for some of the things that I feel inevitably will be what you face on the job can only help people as they begin to feel more comfortable and confident on tackling leadership.

[02:01] SPEAKER_01:

And of course, there is a first time that we experience any given situation. It's going to be a learning curve the first time we experience it. But I think if there is a little bit of a heads up that we can have from the experience of others, that's always a good thing, certainly. So for someone who is new in a role, perhaps they're an experienced administrator, but they're moving into a new school community, or maybe it's their first administrative role, what tend to be some of the biggest blind spots or the biggest surprises that can catch leaders off guard that you talk about in the book?

[02:31] SPEAKER_00:

Well, I think culture in any place is going to be different. And the traditions that people have as far as their community, the traditions they celebrate, what they value. So you can't necessarily walk from one setting where you've been successful to and just apply blindly all the things that were successful in the last place because it's just different people and different history, et cetera. So I think a big blind spot is your own sense of having figured it out, to put it a certain way, because you figured out one place and that does not necessarily mean that everything is applicable. But what is universal from one place to another is people's sense of a desire for autonomy, a sense of wanting to be respected for what they've put into place and been successful doing. And, you know, a lot of great leaders you'll hear give the same advice about when you come to a new environment, spend the first little bit of time just observing what's working and getting on people's teams and building relationships and not being so determined to jump out of the gate and change everything right away because they were there long before you were.

[03:35]

And you're part of a team. You know, you are not the definition of who they are the moment you walk in the door. So, you know, appreciation for culture and tradition and Listening and paying attention are, I think, always good first steps to take when you come into someplace new.

[03:50] SPEAKER_01:

When I think about culture and picking up on the culture of a school that's new to yourself, it strikes me that people tend to be really nice at the beginning, right? People tend to be very welcoming and very polite and very respectful. And then it can take kind of a sudden turn when maybe the honeymoon is over or people's initial stockpile of politeness kind of wears off and they get mad about an issue or they bring an issue to your attention that maybe they were holding back on. What are some strategies for leaders to kind of take those in stride when it appears that the honeymoon is over and some really tough stuff starts coming up for the first time?

[04:32] SPEAKER_00:

I think reflective listening is an outstanding strategy, too. I think when people are frustrated or angry, they just want to be understood. And that's true with parents. That's true with children. It's certainly true with faculty. And so with reflective listening, the best way to describe that is somebody comes to you, your body language is open.

[04:50]

There's even a section in my book I talk about where your toes point and that where somebody's toes are pointing in a conversation with you is so indicative of where their attention is. And we sort of subconsciously sometimes don't think about our body language. But when somebody comes to you with frustration that your body language is open, that when they express what they're concerned about, you're able to re-articulate. Like, let me be sure I understand that I heard this correctly. And this is a great strategy with parents too, because if somebody's angry or really triggered to be able to say, can you tell me one more time? Because I want to be sure I got this right.

[05:23]

Often the edge gets taken off of the frustration they have when they know that you understand when they say it a second time. But it all comes down to understanding that this person, this leader in front of me really wants to hear my frustration. It doesn't mean that it's going to go my way, quote unquote, you know, in the end, he's going to side with me, etc. But he understands what it is that I am concerned about, my objections, my fears, what I want to guard against. And I left the conversation feeling respected and honored for my voice and what I bring to the table. So I think just being a good, open listener that is truly concerned about what all stakeholders have to contribute to the conversation about a problem, that's what people want.

[06:08]

It's not necessarily getting their way. They want to be seen and heard and understood.

[06:13] SPEAKER_01:

I'm thinking back to some conversations that I had with people right away on the job when I wanted to be a good listener, I wanted to be responsive and proactive. And I don't know if you ever found yourself making this mistake, but I definitely remember listening so proactively and reflecting back to the person so accurately what they were telling me that I accidentally gave them the sense that I agreed with them and I was going to do exactly what they wanted.

[06:39] SPEAKER_00:

You know what I mean?

[06:40] SPEAKER_01:

So what are some of your recommendations for, you know, for distinguishing between, you know, I hear you, I understand what you're saying, I take your concerns seriously. And yes, I'm going to do exactly what you just told me you wanted me to do, because that conflicts with what the last person told me they wanted me to do, and I can't do both.

[06:56] SPEAKER_00:

I agree. I think everybody who's ever led anything and has to be the ultimate decision maker, socially, it feels so good to make the person who's in your presence at that moment feel a sense like they have a little bit of a secret advantage. That's very damaging later on if in the end, They have had one experience where they have the perception, you know, that, oh, he's going to go my way on this. And then you don't. So you're exactly right. I think there has to be some magical balance of giving the disclaimer that, you know, Just because we're engaging in this in a positive way and assuming positive intent, and I can concede some of your points are worth considering, is not the same thing as me guaranteeing it's going to end up that way.

[07:46]

So usually my go-to lines would probably be, you've given me a lot to think about here. I'm going to be visiting with some other people about these things because there are some things I may learn after you and I talk. that bring a wider picture for me that I'm not currently aware of. And so I'm hopeful that you'll understand that as I consider to do these things, I will think about them in good faith for the betterment of your team, of our school, of our community. And I think that term good faith is a great one to use because it says I'm trying to deal honestly. And I will tell you honestly right now, there may be something that comes to my attention after this when you leave here, that's going to really rewrite the narrative a little bit or change it enough that something else becomes more pressing.

[08:29]

And I think just be upfront with people about that and tell them on the front end, you kind of save yourself, you know, maybe the stomach turning situation in the end where they look at you like, that's not at all what you said before. So maybe some sort of a disclaimer on the front end is good. Yeah.

[08:46] SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and I definitely realized the need for that quickly, especially when I discovered that there were actually people who had tried to beat their colleagues to the punch when they knew they needed to get to me first in order to bend my ear on a particular issue to get it to go their way. And then, yeah, having learned that lesson the hard way, I finally realized the first person who comes and speaks with me about an issue the most passionately is not necessarily the person who is right and needs to get their way.

[09:14] SPEAKER_00:

I would tell a new leader that if the first time they approach you want to play this game of the first one to get to him is the one that will get their way. Hopefully you can put that to bed pretty early when they learn about you that you're going to listen to multiple sides and has nothing to do with who gets there first, that you're conscientious and prudent and thoughtful and you're not really interested in. the, the order of who, who gets to your door first. And I think you can get over that pretty quickly. Um, if you kind of are prepared for that the first time around, not to be in such a mood to please people that it has to be whoever's there first, but it is, it's a socially weird job. I think that's something that people should appreciate is that, you know, if you love instruction, um, that's a great reason to be a principal, but you also have to be okay with the social dynamic of, um, you know, being friendly, but not anybody, not anybody's friend.

[10:04]

And that's, um, You know, I don't mean to say that in a depressing, sad way, but it's part of what you kind of accept is it's not about picking favorites and pleasing people. It's about doing the right thing. And, you know, that is what it is.

[10:16] SPEAKER_01:

Well, Justin, as our listeners will know, I'm a big fan of administrators getting into classrooms on a regular basis, which is, of course, a challenge for everyone because there's so much else for leaders to do. What are some of your strategies in the principal's toolbox that you recommend for getting out of the office and being able to spend more time in classrooms?

[10:38] SPEAKER_00:

I appreciate that question. There's a section I call mobile office, and it basically just discusses the idea that, as you said, there is so much for us to do in terms of administrative work and paperwork and forms and purchase orders, etc. But what we forget sometimes is there's no rule that says we can't take a handful of, you know, leave form signatures and take them to the back of a second grade classroom during the reading lesson and be back there and participate and be present. And you can sign them there. And it could be any number of things. It could be another teacher's evaluation that you're scoring.

[11:09]

It doesn't have to happen at your desk. It can happen in the cafeteria. The lunch monitors will certainly appreciate that, you know, be out and be seen in the school. I think another thing that teachers love, and many of principals do this, are, you know, taking a stack of post-it notes around. And I know that there are teachers at our school, unbelievable to me, but I'll write one quick sentence of praise about how they engineered their lesson or did something that was really meaningful in giving feedback to a student, write it on a post-it note. I'll leave it on the door when I leave.

[11:39]

And without exaggeration, a year, 18 months later, they still got that post-it note on their cork board or on their doorframe because it means something to them. It's something that took two seconds of you But it's an affirmation of them and it's a huge morale builder. And, you know, one of the things in my book I talk about a lot is that it doesn't take a lot of your effort, whether it be a phone call to a parent or a note to a teacher, to really lift somebody up. And, you know, that's...

[12:05]

A wonderful thing about our position is that we have this influence on people, and a kind or encouraging word for us can mean so much. As the culture gets more comfortable with feedback on observations and things like that instructionally, that trust allows you to be a little more forthright with, I wonder if you could have done this during the lesson, or have you thought about the way that this teacher next door does this was really effective? Have you guys talked about this? And when they know that it comes from a place of trust and you wanting them to be successful, there's no longer this stigma of, is he scolding me or is he saying something negative about me? And they know that, no, he cares. I mean, this person spends all this effort trying to pour into me.

[12:47]

And so I think it's a really nice progression for principals to shoot for, to go from positive, positive, to I wonder if, to maybe you should try, because it's all undergirded with support and wanting to see somebody thrive.

[13:01] SPEAKER_01:

I think the baseline for most teachers is that they get something like that maybe once or twice a year. And if the first interaction is not a positive one, then that's going to stick with people. And if the first interaction is a positive one, as you said, people will keep those notes forever. And I recall seeing those notes up on people's bulletin board, the little bulletin board by the teacher's desk. you know, from months and months or even years ago, thinking that was almost kind of a throwaway comment to me. Like, I don't even remember thinking that or saying that, but clearly it stuck with them.

[13:34]

And it's just a reminder of our, you know, the power of our words that, you know, because we have relatively few interactions with people and because of our role, our words do matter a great deal. And people really do, you know, do hang on to those. I wanted to run with something you said about the mobile office idea and bringing work into the back of the room. Because I can definitely recall times when I did that and then regretted it because I wasn't paying attention to what was going on. But it's an important strategy not to overlook because sometimes when we show up in a classroom, what's going on then is not especially rich as an observation focus. You walk in and the teacher's passing out papers.

[14:16]

And it's like, okay, this is going to take about two more minutes. I don't really want to watch the teacher pass out papers, but that's a time when you can connect with students or do something else. And there is an opportunity that will come from waiting a minute that if we're impatient, if we just say, oh, I'm out of here, I want to see some good teaching going on, not passing back papers. So I love that ready for anything kind of attitude that I'm prepared to sit this out if I have to wait through some passing back of papers to, you know, to see something interesting that's worth talking about.

[14:47] SPEAKER_00:

Well, and I'm going to be transparent. I mean, I think more for me, the mobile office is more about being seen by kids, not being sort of this mysterious man behind the curtain. Sometimes it often results in me being able to focus on good, rich instruction. But I just you know, it really was a nice moment a couple of weeks ago We have a newer teacher at school and she went to her colleague at lunch and she said, hey, he came into my room. Is that a big deal? Like, oh my goodness, I'm not sure if it was good or not.

[15:17]

I'm not sure why he was there. And her colleague who's worked with me for years said, and I just love this. It makes me feel good. She said, you know, she's like, he's in and out all the time. Don't worry about it. Like, just do your thing.

[15:27]

It's not a big deal. And that's what I want people to feel like. I want them to not perform for me. I want them to be just like, we're doing this together. We're improving instruction, delivering to kids together. It shouldn't be an event that I walk through your door and you have a reason to seize up and be afraid.

[15:42]

And if there was a compliment I would hope to get from people, I would hope to earn the compliment that my presence isn't a reason to be all bent out of shape. It's just, you know, we're doing this thing together.

[15:55] SPEAKER_01:

Well, Justin, what are some of the more infrequent topics that principals have to deal with that you discuss in the principal's toolbox? Because I think there's so much here that could catch a leader off guard if they don't have your book, if they haven't kind of flipped through to see what some of those issues are. What are some of the kind of left field issues that you can help people anticipate?

[16:17] SPEAKER_00:

I would say one is, and it seems so obscure to the moment you need it, is know the mechanical setup of your building, especially where to turn the water off. I mean, most schools, you can go up above the ceiling or below and you could turn off an individual pipe to a toilet or a sink. With a little quarter turn of the lever, but there are times where we had a couple years ago a water fountain in the hallway literally exploded and there's just water gushing from a pipe everywhere and there was nowhere to turn it off, and I did not know where the master water shut off was the whole school. Um, and I had to be taught that by the maintenance supervisor for plumbing that day. And it's a simple thing to know, but when, um, and again, it seems so left field to bring that up, but, um, knowing where to turn the water off, thinking about the culture for your non-teaching faculty and how it feels to be the only school counselor or the only special ed teacher or two, or the

[17:13]

you know the second grade team or the eighth grade team probably has each other they have their kindred spirits they work on a lot of the same things but people that are the speech language pathologist or the band director or the choir teacher or the shop teacher you know there's only one of them and and those are folks that can easily be marginalized and pushed to the side and you know so like think about how you can be a voice of advocacy for those people to be treated with respect and consideration not only interpersonally with their peers, but also the quality of professional learning that they get, or they get exposed to, or they get offered.

[17:45] SPEAKER_01:

And that's a huge one, I think, because we typically plan meetings around the needs of homeroom teachers, subject area teachers, and yet everybody has to come to these meetings. And sometimes nothing on the agenda is relevant to the band director or the counselor or So we've got to really be intentional about what's our plan for these discussions? How do we want people to sit? How do we want people to participate in discussions? If an item is not particularly relevant to everybody who's not a homeroom teacher, does that need to be a whole faculty meeting discussion item? Or can we handle that somewhere else?

[18:20]

I wanted to ask if I could, you were a band director, right? When you were a teacher?

[18:23] SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

[18:24] SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Why do you think it is that so many band directors become great principals? Because I've seen this over and over again, that like wildly out of proportion to how many band directors there are, many become principals. Why do you think that is?

[18:35] SPEAKER_00:

I think it's a mindset. You know, I think you're interacting with parents as a natural part of having your program be successful. I think you understand that it is a content area that has always required advocacy for yourself. Not that there aren't school communities and populations that aren't naturally more inclined toward the arts, but you always feel like there's a sense of having to defend the validity and the worthwhileness of your program. I don't in any way mean that to be negative, but it's just something that, you know, when you think about relationships as a principal with the Chamber of Commerce or the Rotary Club or the school district, you know, as a principal, you're always in advocacy mode for your school and what your teachers need and your kids need. So there's that sense of it that's very alike.

[19:20]

Dealing with money, booster funds and things of that nature, equates well to PTO, extra hours, weekends, summers. I mean, in terms of life balance, there's a lot of hours band directors spend beyond the typical school day. So there's a lot of elements of the transition from one role to the principalship. You know, there's a lot of things in common there that make the transition not all that jarring, frankly.

[19:43] SPEAKER_01:

That's a great point about already being in the role of communicating with parents and putting out a good word and representing your program in the community. I wanted to ask, because I know you have something on this in the book, about when parents or other members of the community start to kind of drag the school through the mud on some particular issue on social media or on, back in my day, it was parent blogs, but now it's more social media. What are some strategies for principals who may be caught off guard by the negativity that suddenly crops up on social media?

[20:14] SPEAKER_00:

It's tough. And this is important to say it this way. You and I are having a pleasant conversation right now, and I can give you the philosophical answer, but I feel like it's important to acknowledge that when it happens to you, it's very irritating. You lose the sense of self-control. You just want to answer and get back at somebody and clarify. And so I just want to honor that that's the way that it emotionally feels when it happens to you.

[20:35]

But the people that unfairly attack or demean on social media, I generally find to be those that aren't credible to peers and friends of mine anyway, so to join them in the mud, even trying to defend myself or us, only heightens an already dramatic situation. They're good at arguing and telling untruths, so I don't know why I would spend my time playing that game with them. Now, if there's an opportunity to reach out in good faith to those individuals, whether it be a parent or whoever, and call them and just say, you know, you sound concerned about this issue. I didn't notice this on social media. Um, you know, you and I've had a good trusting relationship for a long time. Can we spend a minute to talk this through?

[21:18]

I want to hear what your concerns are. And as angry as I may be at how ridiculous and immature that that person has been, the thing that behooves and benefits our school the most is for me to engage that person in a respectful conversation. and see if I can really get to the root of what's frustrating them and see if there's some merit to it and help them solve it. I joke that people throughout all of history have had poor judgment. Social media just allows them to prove it to the rest of us. And I think that's true.

[21:48]

So the best way to make those situations better is not to fling mud with them. It's to pick up the phone, just you and them and say, look, we're obviously at a crossroads and you're frustrated. I want to help us get through this together. Let me hear what you're frustrated about. That in my experience is much better than playing the nasty game. When you on social media respond to an attack, you're doing it largely for the same reason they did, so that other people can see this conversation take place.

[22:14]

And I just don't know what good that does. He really showed them. He got 100 likes from that. I mean, I get the temptation, especially when you're angry and feel hurt and wounded and You want to stand up for it and you want people to know you're tough. But in the end, what you really want is the problem to go away and you don't want a trashy reputation for your school or your district. So just pick up the phone and what do you really want?

[22:36]

Solve the problem like an adult, even when the other person didn't act like one.

[22:40] SPEAKER_01:

Well, Justin, I know you cover numerous topics in the book, almost an encyclopedic approach to the many issues that we may face. But two things that come through as kind of major themes of your work, I know, are growth and gratitude. So as a leader, why are growth and gratitude so important to you?

[22:59] SPEAKER_00:

So there's a couple areas there that are probably worth mining. So with growth, I think we live so long in this achievement culture where we do A, B on a roll and we do top 10% in valedictorians and on state tests, proficient, not proficient, exceeds expectations, mastery, on and on. And I think achievement is extraordinarily important to recognize. I wonder though, how many people does that leave out of the conversation of acknowledging the journey that they take. And so I'll just give a simple example. You know, in my mind, a child that goes from a 70 to an 85 in math over the nine weeks is just as worthy of celebration and encouragement as somebody that goes from a 95 to a 97.

[23:41]

We're so accustomed to celebrating the excellence on the latter example, but if there's no incentive motivation-wise for somebody to feel like that they're being recognized for getting better, then it's easy for a person, an adult, not just kids, but adults as well, to sort of disengage. I mean, when you have a teacher that is a brand new teacher first second year and they're next to a 20-year veteran who was considered a master by comparison they'll never be at least not anytime soon comparable but when you can say to a teacher look you had some real serious concerns with classroom management and pacing last semester but look what you've done to improve that now the truth is we both still know that she's nowhere near her colleague teacher next door But nor should she be. And I think that celebrating growth is a big, big deal for everybody because it's you against yourself.

[24:32]

And then you can make some gains there. It's not about the journey of the person next to you. As far as gratitude, you mentioned earlier in our talk that Even if you give a post-it note to somebody to say thanks for this excellent work you've done, there's not enough of you to go around to say thank you to all the people that deserve it as frequently as they should hear it. And so we do something at school called the Friday Five. It's just an email where I send...

[24:58]

Every Friday afternoon, five things I'm grateful for that week. And it could be an inside joke. It could be an inspiring moment with a teacher, an instructional strategy I saw. And even though not everybody gets recognized or mentioned in the Friday Five, what it says symbolically to our faculty is that, you know, I'm trying to be the kind of leader that recognizes people that go above and beyond or that are giving of their hearts and their time. And that's not the same as telling you personally that you did something that was worthy of mention. But it says, I work with and for somebody that is looking for things to praise.

[25:32]

And although it may not have my name on it this week, at some point, it probably will. And it just feels good to be in that kind of a place. And I think that's a pretty darn good substitute for being actually able to say thank you as many times as each individual deserves to hear it.

[25:47] SPEAKER_01:

I love that because, as you said, it says so much about you as a leader. It says so much about the kind of culture you want to create. And I have to imagine that over time, people know that they need to tell you about the things that they're doing if they want you to find out about them. And maybe they're not telling you just so you'll mention it. But it kind of creates this culture of spreading the good news. As you said, being a band director, you kind of get that sense of, You know, I need to communicate about the value of this program with the community.

[26:14]

And when everybody recognizes that, we're able to put out a lot more positivity, a lot more good news about the school when everybody is invested in that.

[26:23] SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely.

[26:24] SPEAKER_01:

So the book is The Principal's Toolbox, Real Talk on Tackling School Leadership. And Justin, if people want to connect with you online, where's the best place for them to find you?

[26:34] SPEAKER_00:

Twitter is the best place at happy teacher guy. And if you're interested in checking out the book, you can check it out on Amazon, the principal's toolbox, real talk on tackling school leadership.

[26:43] SPEAKER_01:

Well, Dr. Justin Thomas, thank you so much for joining me on principal center radio. It's been a blast.

[26:47] SPEAKER_00:

I have enjoyed it. Thank you so much.

[26:49] Announcer:

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[26:53] SPEAKER_00:

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