[00:01] SPEAKER_00:
Welcome to Principal Center Radio, bringing you the best in professional practice.
[00:06] Announcer:
Here's your host, director of the Principal Center and champion of high performance instructional leadership, Justin Bader. Welcome everyone to Principal Center Radio.
[00:15] SPEAKER_01:
I'm your host, Justin Bader, and I'm honored to be joined today by Kathy Key. Kathy is a founding partner of Results Coaching Global and serves as a seminar instructor, mentor, and coach, and directs the accredited coach training program. She's had a long career in education and has served in numerous leadership roles, including as an assistant superintendent and past president of Learning Forward. And she's the author of Results Coaching Next Steps, Leading for Growth and Change.
[00:45] Announcer:
And now, our feature presentation.
[00:48] SPEAKER_01:
Kathy, welcome to Principal Center Radio.
[00:50] SPEAKER_02:
Thank you very much. It's an honor to be with you.
[00:52] SPEAKER_01:
Well, let's talk about what results coaching is. I mean, we're all familiar in our profession with coaching in many different forms. Talk to me for just a moment about what results coaching is and what your approach to coaching kind of entails at its heart.
[01:08] SPEAKER_02:
Just as you said, we've known that coaching is a powerful tool And for several years, people have been using the title, going through trainings about what coaching does and can do. And the most critical thing for us is that coaching is about getting results for people. And unfortunately, there's a lot of coaching going on where there's not necessarily results. And so our focus coming from the corporate business world of coaching, having had a strong educational foundation, Through cognitive coaching for many years, that really is a strong, strong piece that says when we coach people, the object is results for people, whether it's a student or whether it's an adult. And so that's what that's all about. And to send the message repeatedly that coaching is about getting results within people.
[02:03]
to get their best self, to get their best work, to help them achieve their goals. Whatever it is that is the goal set by a system or an individual, that's what it's all about.
[02:13] SPEAKER_01:
Well, let's talk a little bit about coach leadership. Does that refer to people who work with coaches to lead coaches, say, in a larger organization?
[02:21] SPEAKER_02:
Justin, we believe that being a coach is is more than a hat you wear or a roll or a lab coat you put on. It's truly becoming coach-like in your behavior. We are working in an information age in education, and yet how we go about doing the work is many times 20th century in the look, in the sound, and in the way people talk to one another. When we talk about coach leadership, our work is to invite principals and district leaders and school leaders to see themselves as that leader, but being a coach leader. And one of the main pieces that we put in the book in our supervision chapter was a huge research study that came out of Strategy Plus Business.
[03:14]
And In their research, they found that the ability to grow talent was ranked number 67 out of 67 competencies by supervisors despite over 30 years of training. And the work of leadership is to grow the talent of your people. And somewhere along the line, we have been so hardwired to the concept of principle, the titles, the supervisory words, the direct report terminology, the evaluation terms, that we have somehow failed to come into the 21st century and realize that the work of leadership is about growing the talent of your people. People are smart. They're capable.
[04:04]
They want to do good work. And what they need is a new kind of leader. And we believe that that new kind of leader is the coach leader, a leader who teaches or that coaches someone to think differently about their work, to be a problem solver about their work, to be a risk taker in their work, but to make good choices based on standards and expectations that are set by whatever the entity is. So our focus is really about, and the reason that term is so important, is that once you become a coach leader, and we have so many principals that are passionate about coaching in their work, once you become a coach leader, you really show up. You're always the principal. But you show up with the skills and the tools to really coach a person to be the best at whatever they're doing.
[04:58]
That's where that term comes from. And it's taken a lot of years to get there. I mean, like I tell you, we've been working on coaching for so many years. And it's the realization that coaching is not something you do to people. It's how you are with people.
[05:13] SPEAKER_01:
So coaching is not something you do to people, but it's how you are with people. Fabulous. I love that. Let's talk about that idea that you mentioned of decision making, because I feel like there is a perspective on instructional leadership in particular. to go around and correct the mistakes they see, you know, as if we're grading papers and we want to mark the problems that are wrong, wrong and hand them back to students. I feel like a lot of people in our profession see instructional leadership that way.
[05:54]
And what I hear you saying in talking about getting results for your clients and helping teachers think differently and make decisions differently, you know, To me, a lot of the difference that we can make as leaders who think of themselves as coaches is in what happens when we're not in the classroom.
[06:14] SPEAKER_02:
Oh man, you really hit the button for me on that one because- I could just be shouting, hooray, you're exactly right. See, that's what we see everywhere. People get caught up in these titles and they get caught up in positions. And we're really, really hardwired to believe that that's what we're supposed to do. And I've even talked to principals about it. And they say, well, if I don't tell them what to do, or tell them how to do things, then they won't think I know what to do.
[06:40]
So there's some status stuff messed up in that decision to do that. And working to really change the mindset around supervision, to change the mindset around leadership, that's the most difficult task of all, that we provide leadership by inspiring and influencing people to make great choices and do the great, great work. Now, there's some, obviously, it's not as easy as that sounds because we also have the responsibility to be sure people know what that looks like and sounds like. I can't tell you how many places we go into and somebody will come up and say, well, this teacher is, their discipline is completely out of whack and the classroom is out of control and I've got to go in there and tell them what to do. And the first question we ask is what standards guide what good classrooms look like?
[07:36]
You know, what are the expectations that have been set in your handout or in your discipline plan in the school that guides them in knowing what to do. And the shock of all shock is so rarely do we find things that really set up standards or expectations around what people do. They talk about them a lot, but when a push comes to shove, many times they're missing in terms of clarity. And so when somebody goes in and says, okay, this is what I think you ought to do, and my question again, or our question would be, well, what guided you in that? Then say, well, my own experience. Well, goodness gracious, we know how dangerous that is.
[08:15]
I mean, that is a pit because what we did 20 years ago, even 10 years ago, is dramatically different than what kids need today. And the other thing you mentioned, and I'm going to pull on it again, and that is We go in and we feel like we have to tell people what to do. But do you know, because you've probably interviewed the wonderful author, but everybody's talking about growth mindset. Let's have a growth mindset for our kids. Let's go in and show that it's about effort and trying hard and you're just not there yet. Well, what we say is, well, what about the adults?
[08:54]
You know, why not the growth mindset for the adults when you have a contradicting behaviors of this is how I want us to be with kids, but this is how we're going to be with the grownups, then nothing ever changes. because of the contradiction in words and actions.
[09:10] SPEAKER_01:
I was thinking back to something I read earlier this year in the new edition of Charlotte Danielson's book, Talk About Teaching, where she talks about the role of feedback. I actually sent out an email about this today to my subscribers. The role of feedback, you know, we see our role as instructional leaders as one of providing feedback. And even if it's not corrective or directive feedback, even if it's feedback that's designed to encourage people to think effectively, and reflect and improve on their practice with the appropriate degree of professional autonomy and responsibility. Danielson says that feedback can actually be a hindrance if it's coming from the outside without a lot of information, without a lot of awareness of the teacher's instructional situation and the teacher's goals. And I appreciate your connection to the expectations that we've set.
[10:02]
But I'm also curious about the role of the teacher's goals and the teacher's questions. And I know you've done a lot with coaching certification and coaching training. And one of the things that's always struck me as slightly strange about our view of ourselves as coaches in the administrator world is this idea that results for the client or the client's goals really take the foreground, really take preeminence in a coaching relationship. And I wonder if we could talk about that tension where, you know, we are officially evaluators, but when we put on that coaching hat, we're also kind of supposed to care first and foremost about the client's goals. And the client in that case would be the teacher. How do you see that tension?
[10:49] SPEAKER_02:
Oh, what a great question, and I'm so excited to talk about it. They're two different things. When you're a professional coach and you work with a client, it's like working with a client as a therapist or a psychologist or a doctor. You're working on what they want. an entity such as a school system, they're under contract from a system and that system has goals and expectations that they, when signing a contract, supposedly, we've learned that's not always the truth, but supposedly they sign agreeing to work for the goals and the expectations and the requirements of that district. Many times that is not clear.
[11:38]
And Justin, for years, we have gone into places and said, well, how do you know what people are working on unless it's in the type of feedback that you're talking about? And we finally went into a district right here in Ponder, ISD, very north of Dallas. And the principals were saying, we don't ever have teachers that don't do what they are hired to do. And so it was just amazing. I thought I'd died and gone to teacher heaven or something. It was like, what?
[12:13]
And so they said, yeah. Every year, our superintendent meets with every new hire. for five minutes and so I immediately did a big line to the wonderful superintendent they have and I sat down and talked with him his name is Drew Watkins and he said absolutely the most important thing I do every time we get new employees is I sit down with them and I'll just simply say your principal has recommended you for a position So you must be really good, and we're thrilled that you want to work in this district. But before you sign this contract, we want to be really, really sure that you understand that these are the five critical things that we do in this district. Now, if you don't like those things or you don't want to do those things, there's about 120 districts around Texas. the North Texas area that you can go to.
[13:01]
But if you come here, this is what you agree to do. And I want to just be sure you understand that. And this is your last chance to walk away. You know, you don't have to come here. And as a result of that clarity around the expectations, whether it's working as professional learning communities, whether it's working in partnerships with parents in the community, whether it's working in, you know, following the state curriculum, and the goals of our state curriculum they have eliminated people who don't know what they're supposed to do now not every system would have a superintendent who could possibly do that but this is a man who has had a district that's grown from very small to now getting pretty big and even now He meets with these people in small groups and has the same conversation. So people go coming in what is expected of them.
[13:55]
So then when I go to set my goals as an individual teacher, I'm aligning my goals with the goals of my school and the goals of my district. And so you have the perfect alignment when you have that. And so when you're coaching a teacher on their particular goals, It's not like an individual client whose might be their goal of working on a relationship. You're working with a teacher client who has been hired to accomplish a task and to accomplish success with kids. And that's what becomes the agreement. So it's like magic.
[14:31]
When people have that clarity, then people know where to focus their time and their energy. And so when coaches come in or when principals come in, let's say they're working on differentiation for students. Well, they've already decided that's a goal for the school. So the principal can come in and then say, well, you know. When we started the year, you were working on these things for differentiation. What are you noticing that you're having success with?
[14:57]
What are you the most excited about? It comes from a place of agreements around what is the work and what do we agree to do?
[15:05] SPEAKER_01:
And you use that word that I think is so powerful there, alignment, because so many times when we experience frustration with our staff, with people that we've hired or people in a school that we've been hired into, and we feel like we're working at cross-purposes, that's what's missing, that sense of alignment where I think that I want what's best for students, and I know what that is, I know what it looks like, and I'm not seeing it in classrooms, and yet the person on the other side of the table wants the same thing. They want what's best for students, they think that they are doing it in their classroom, and they don't know why we're there interfering and trying to get them to do something different that in their mind is not best for students, but that alignment is what puts people on the same page and ends that, you know, that kind of conflict of working across purposes. How specific do you feel like we need to be about that?
[15:57]
Because you mentioned in the Ponder Independent School District, there are five kind of big items that they clarify. You know, if you're going to work here, you need to be on the same page with us about these five items. I feel like we're always clear about the, you know, kind of what's best for students aspect. Do you feel like that's specific enough? Or on the other end of the spectrum, I've worked with principals who were ultra, ultra specific about instructional techniques and curriculum, and here's exactly how we're going to teach this subject and that subject. If you want to work here, that's what you do.
[16:28]
Is there a sweet spot where it comes to that alignment, or do you think we need to be flexible about that?
[16:34] SPEAKER_02:
Well, I've lived long enough and had enough experience now that I've seen a little bit of all the ranges of what you're talking about and in between. I do believe there's a sweet spot because first of all, leadership has to provide the vision and they set the mission of where we want to be. And then there's got to be some autonomy in how people get there. You know, I'm sure you've talked to Daniel Pink and his work on drive and motivation And autonomy is is is one third of what motivates people to do things. And if everything is determined by someone else, you take away my ability to think or, you know, be thoughtful or take risks because it has to be done. So I think that sweet spot is being sure we set the clear vision and we set the parameters around what are the philosophies that we've agreed that we're all going to use.
[17:30]
Maybe it's a particular reading program. Maybe it's the way we teach science. Maybe it's a discipline management system. You know, there are huge, big boulders of key things that guide what we do. And most of them have principles. You know, in our district, when I was in Carrollton Farmers Branch, you know, people came into our district and we said, you have the option to choose your disciplinary plan based on what your principle is.
[18:02]
want you to use it at the school. But in the district, you have some freedom to work inside your school and decide. But we have one non-negotiable. Whatever you choose, it may never publicly demean, humiliate, or embarrass a child or an adult. And so once you begin to set a a parameter of a standard, then all of a sudden, a lot of different things get weeded out because they don't meet that. Leadership is about setting some clear parameters, some principles about how we work, how we think, how we respect one another, and then people get options inside that.
[18:43]
Otherwise, you kill the drive for, you know, risk-taking and trying new things because sadly, teachers feel like, well, they won't like what I do or it won't be right. And I cannot believe it is 2016 and how many teachers are fearful of doing the wrong thing. I mean, we're in 2016. You know, schools should be a place to where teachers know what they need to do, but then they have the support and the motivation and the Someone cheering them on to try because here's what the end product has to be. Try some things. See what works.
[19:27]
See what doesn't work. And just really motivating people. That to me and what teachers say to me every day, that's the joy of teaching and learning is to try things and to experiment. without fear of judgment that says it's wrong.
[19:44] SPEAKER_01:
I know Richard Elmore talks about that tension of tight and loose, being tight on some things, having a high degree of alignment on certain expectations, but also being loose on maybe some of the details and providing that degree of autonomy. And I'm glad you mentioned motivation in relation to autonomy. Back to the Dacey and Ryan studies on self-determination theory. I think that's something that we've ignored today peril in education, in our quest to be so aligned, to have such clear expectations, to kind of squeeze the variability out of our systems. And yet, autonomy is such a huge driver of results in any kind of professional work. And it's been really interesting to see some of the debates about that in medicine when it comes to standardizing practices and improvement work.
[20:35]
But in You know, in schools, I think we're dealing with a situation of getting what we reinforce. And I think one of the reasons that this kind of top-down kind of lack of autonomy way of treating teachers has survived for so long is because if you do enough of it, it starts to, you know, to quote-unquote work. You know, you will end up with only teachers who can tolerate that and only teachers who like that kind of fear-based leadership. And what I'm seeing across the country, you know, in different places, you know, it really divides into pockets where you have districts where autonomy is really valued, where alignment is really valued, and you have other districts where alignment is viewed more as...
[21:21]
a uh you know a lack of decision-making authority for teachers that you know that administrators make the decisions and teachers just do it and if they have a good attitude they don't complain and if they have a bad attitude hopefully they'll go away um you know but the but the the talent follows the autonomy in in my view i think people flock to the places where they have the level of professional autonomy they need oh absolutely absolutely and remember
[21:46] SPEAKER_02:
Daniel Pink also says that personal mastery is a motivator. Well, how do you ever gain personal mastery if you don't have the opportunity to try things and fail and try things and watch change happen? I mean, that's the power. When you put those together, you build into people a way of thinking about, oh, man, that didn't work. What am I going to do next? Well, how will we ever teach our kids that?
[22:15]
if the teachers don't feel the same sense of effort and trying and risk-taking, it's, it's, it's unbelievable how much that dominates classrooms and therefore it dominates how kids think about what they do. And then, like you said, just pockets of places where you real see, we really see the creativity, people thinking in different ways. They, think and look at things from all different perspectives. If there's anything we've learned as you go through life is that there's always a different point of view. There's always a different approach. Not one thing is the thing.
[23:01]
And when we don't respect people And the opportunity to at least bring reason to why they feel that way. And then to say, well, you know, give it a shot. You know, test it out. Do a little action research with it. See what you think. But the ultimate goal is that, you know, the results have to come in.
[23:20]
Do whatever you need. But this is what we've got to have. To have that kind of freedom and inspiration. I believe, we believe, and that's why we are still doing this, is that that's what inspires teachers today. That's what motivates them to just be absolutely amazing. And when you see it, it's like what you say when you go places and you see it.
[23:44]
It's the kind of world we want for our future. But we still have such a long way to go because people are so hardwired. And, you know, given... our state of affairs.
[23:58]
We want people to be thinkers, but we want them to think based on knowledge, to based on, you know, facts that are truthful. We want people to access information and then know how to differentiate, you know, good information from bad information. And the only way that happens is when we give people the opportunity to explore and to try things and to take risks.
[24:24] SPEAKER_01:
I love it. And there's that connection there between student learning, between professional learning for teachers and leaders, and organizational learning in terms of how we improve our systems.
[24:34] SPEAKER_02:
Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think once people get it. You know, I love the statement that Maya Angelou used to always make. And she would say, when we know better, we do better. When principals learn the joy of not feeling like they have to tell or to, you know, design what things are going to be and say, this is how it's going to be.
[24:54]
And they set the parameters and say, create the vision. And then they give people the opportunity because they have the skills, the communication skills and the tools to do that. And they just watch people change. flower and grow, and that keeps great teachers in education. We take a lot of hits in the news that, you know, the smartest people don't go into education. Well, the smartest people may leave education because they're driven out by all the rules and the structure, and you can't only do it this way.
[25:29]
I mean, I think that has a huge impact on what keeps people in education and what doesn't. And we're still losing huge numbers of fabulously wonderful people to education by their third or fourth year.
[25:43] SPEAKER_01:
Well, thinking about your hopes for the book, Results Coaching Next Steps, as school leaders read that book, Kathy, what's one thing that you most hope that school leaders take to heart and take away from that book and put into action?
[25:56] SPEAKER_02:
Well, we touched on it in what we've talked about today, Justin, and that is the whole concept of being a coach principal, a coach supervisor, a coach leader, that they're not different, but to set aside the old mindset of the inspector, of the grader, of the person who gives judgment. And you mentioned this a little while back about feedback for the 21st century leader is one of the most important skills that we can ever know. And yet what we have in past models is critical feedback, critical friend, constructive feedback. None of those things inspire a lot of motivation to hear. And so one of the things that we give our students participants and readers are ways to give feedback in a way that gives you the ability to coach people's thinking, and yet you don't let things slide.
[26:56]
Coaching is not soft. Coaching is to the point. It's strong, but it's also respectful because it keeps people engaged and motivated to the work that is needed. Our main thing is just to keep working on coaching and as a way of being and as an identity rather than something we learn about and it's something that somebody else does but that our principals see themselves is that is my role I'm the chief thinking officer in this school and I'm going to help grow thinkers all over this school that's what We hope they take away.
[27:39] SPEAKER_01:
So the book is Results Coaching Next Steps Leading for Growth and Change. And Kathy, I want to thank you for your time today. Honestly, I could have talked with you for two more hours probably and just had a blast the entire time, but I want to respect your time. If people want to learn more about Results Coaching Global and the work that you do with your team there, where can they find you online?
[27:59] SPEAKER_02:
Well, we're at resultscoachingglobal.com. We're on Twitter at results underscore coach in without the G. And we're just out there eager to hear from people, whether they just want questions or resources or whatever that they need. We've been doing this work now for 16 years and just are passionate about supporting people to getting what they want. And we ask a lot of people, a lot of our principals get to the point where they consider retirement.
[28:32]
It's like, well, hey, we have the next place to go because, you know, we're all going to live, if God's willing, a long, long time. What a great way to serve, continue to serve schools is to be a professional credential coach. and go back in and support school leaders as a coach. So we offer that as a possibility too. So that's where you can find us online at resultscoaching.com.
[28:56] SPEAKER_01:
Fabulous. Thank you so much, Kathy. It has been a pleasure to speak with you on Principal Center Radio.
[29:00] SPEAKER_02:
Thank you very much, Justin. I appreciate the time.
[29:03] SPEAKER_00:
And now, Justin Bader on high-performance instructional leadership.
[29:08] SPEAKER_01:
So high-performance instructional leaders, what did you take away from my conversation with Kathy Key on results coaching? Boy, I really enjoyed that conversation and really enjoyed Kathy's perspective on results. Both the bottom line, which is that we've got to do better for students. We've got to approach coaching in a way that's not soft and not squishy, but we've got to take it as a serious responsibility to raise the level of thinking of the professional's that we work with. And I think Charlotte Danielson's book, Talk About Teaching, is a great one for kind of getting into that mindset, especially the first couple of chapters of that book where she talks about status and talks about the relationship that we need to have with teachers if we want to impact their thinking and impact their practice. And then, of course, Kathy's book with her co-authors at Results Coaching Global, Results Coaching Next Steps, Leading for Growth and Change, I think is just a tremendous resource
[30:05]
on how we can approach that aspect of our role you know we wear many hats as school administrators we we serve in lots of different roles and often it seems like those roles are dictated and driven by the evaluator role that we know is underneath all of those roles you know the bottom line is we do have to evaluate staff we hire and fire but most of the time I think if we can set that aside and say, okay, this is not a situation where my evaluator role is especially relevant. We can take off that evaluator hat and put on the coach hat and say, okay, right now we're focused on growth. We're focused on learning. We're focused on taking risks. We're not worried about the year-end evaluation. And I think we need to let people know that.
[30:49]
I think we need to let people know that, hey, If this unit flops, if this experiment fails, if this activity flops, that is okay. The goal is not to have the perfect lesson or the perfect observation or the perfect day. The goal is student learning long-term and professional learning in the service of student learning. So we've got to send the message that we are here for learning, both student learning and professional learning, as well as ultimately organizational learning. So I want to encourage you to check out Results Coaching Next Steps Leading for Growth and Change. I also want to encourage you to get into classrooms every day because it is very difficult to coach teachers effectively if you don't see them at work and have lots of context for the professional challenges that perhaps they're bringing to you.
[31:33]
You've got to get into classrooms every single day. And I specifically want to challenge you to get into three classrooms a day every day and get into approximately 500 classrooms over the course of the year. And you can sign up for our free program to help you do exactly that in terms of time management, in terms of logistics, in terms of habits and skills at instructionalleadershipchallenge.com.
[31:58] Announcer:
Thanks for listening to Principal Center Radio. For more great episodes, subscribe on our website at principalcenter.com slash radio.
