[00:01] SPEAKER_01:
Welcome to Principal Center Radio, bringing you the best in professional practice.
[00:06] Announcer:
Here's your host, Director of the Principal Center and Champion of High Performance Instructional Leadership, Dustin Bader. Welcome everyone to Principal Center Radio.
[00:16] SPEAKER_02:
Thank you very much for joining us today. My guest today is Kelly Morgan Dempewolf, who is author of Mastery Learning in the Science Classroom. And as a former science teacher, I was excited to get my hands on this book and get into this idea of mastery learning, which is certainly not a new idea, but one that I think we need to pay a lot more attention to today. in the coming years. Kelly, thank you so much for joining us. So let's start by having you tell us a little bit about who you are and what your life's work is and what brought you to the point of writing this particular book.
[00:54] SPEAKER_00:
Sure. I am trained as a chemist and spent 10 years teaching high school physical sciences, chemistry, physics. Throughout that time, received my master's in curriculum instruction and then my PhD in educational studies. And I have spent my life trying to make chemistry in particular, but all sciences, accessible and relevant to my students. And that includes work in inquiry learning. And then now my big push has been the student-paced mastery learning.
[01:32] SPEAKER_02:
So most people have heard of mastery learning, but Kelly, could you tell us what is student-paced mastery learning?
[01:39] SPEAKER_00:
Absolutely. It's using the student's formative assessment and the student's understanding and ability to apply concepts to judge when they're ready to move on. So you're not going to move on until the student is ready. You're not going to leave him behind. And you're not going to make a student stay behind when they're ready to move on. It's using their understanding to pace the instructions.
[02:01] SPEAKER_02:
Well, that's something that it seems like that's what a lot of technology promises us these days. You know, you can buy an app for that or you can buy a curriculum that'll do that. But I'm recalling a story that my boss, when I was a new principal, my boss told me a story about when she was a new principal and she said, I'm going to make sure that all of our students master the skills and knowledge that they need before we move on to something else. So she sat her staff down and told them, okay, we are going to teach for mastery and, you know, we're not going to move on until they get it. And at the end of the year, their test scores were terrible. And then she realized it was because they had only gotten through about half of the curriculum.
[02:41]
And I know we all feel that pressure to both cover and to teach for mastery. What do you see as some of the key ideas around making enough coverage happen, ensuring that we cover enough material, but actually not just cover it, but ensure that students are mastering it? Can you speak to that a little bit?
[03:01] SPEAKER_00:
Absolutely. I think a real key difference to that is using individual student pacing. And that doesn't mean that every student is at a completely different spot. You're going to have fluid groups. You're going to have a group of four or five students who are working on the same thing. As a few of them master it, they move on to another group and then more people join the original group.
[03:22]
So it's not like you have 30 different things going on in the classroom. However, the student-paced piece of it really is the key. Research shows that prior knowledge is probably the defining factor. especially for courses that build on content. So any math-based and almost all the science courses where you really can't understand the next thing until you understand today. And if we move on before kids are ready, they just simply never catch up.
[03:56]
However, if you take the time to find out what the specific hole is in a student's understanding, they can fill that hole and then move on. And so I think the danger that happens is if you hold an entire class in a holding pattern until everybody is ready to move on, you're holding everybody still. filling each of those holes rather than, okay, fill the first kid's hole and then he can move on. Fill the second kid's hole and then he can move on. And that's actually one of the big misconceptions about student-paced mastery learning is people think they're never going to get caught up. They're always going to be, if they start behind, they're always going to be behind.
[04:43]
Really, they don't. If you can fill those little holes, then they move on quite quickly. And at the end of the year, My classes typically had eight to 10 units in a full academic year. And by the end of the year, no one was more than one unit behind. Everybody was at least in the last unit of the course. And I would much rather look at results of a kid who mastered nine units in a course than a kid who got through all 10 but may have been left behind really in unit one, two, or three.
[05:23] SPEAKER_02:
Absolutely. Really well said. So Kelly, as I was reading the book and reading the story of how you came to teach this way as a high school teacher, what was it that got you to the point where you knew that self-paced mastery learning was the way that you just had to teach? What brought you to that point and what did you learn along the way?
[05:44] SPEAKER_00:
It was actually a combination of two things happening. One was in my PhD work, most of my work centered around cognitive and cognitive load and this idea of prior knowledge and how our learning happens. And then also, as I was reading literature and understanding research in those fields, I was thinking about my own classroom. And I knew that kids...
[06:13]
could copy the homework or classwork. They could write on the coattails of their lab partner. They could fail every test and still walk out of my room with a D. Not a grade I personally would be proud of, but they still have a stamp on them in their transcript. They passed chemistry. And I just simply wasn't okay with that anymore.
[06:36]
I wasn't okay with anybody walking out of my classroom saying they had passed chemistry when I knew they really hadn't. And the way to fix that grade-wise is make hundred percent of your grade, your tests, but that's just, that didn't sit well with me either. Um, I needed the performance assessments of the lab and, and I wanted to, um, counter tests with other things. And so the way to do that was to every kid didn't move on until they were ready, but if they were ready before other people, they moved on. Um, so And really, I think one of the biggest transformative pieces for me and for the students was that same was not fair. You know, I really worried that kids were going to say, well, it's not fair.
[07:28]
He gets to move on or he doesn't have to do the whole worksheet and I do. And really, I decided that fair was whatever each kid needed to succeed and to master it and move on. And once I transformed my thinking to that and brought in the research and the literature that I had been reading, it just made sense to me.
[07:51] SPEAKER_02:
You were looking at equity in terms of the results that students were getting, not what you were doing as the teacher.
[07:58] SPEAKER_00:
Absolutely. And if one student needs more time to understand a concept, it's not fair and equitable for me to move on without them. And likewise, the student that gets it, that remembers how to balance equations from middle school, why should they have to spend that class time doing that? Let them move on to something that's more challenging. And so I made my room an equitable room in learning. Everybody was learning and getting what they needed to learn.
[08:24] SPEAKER_02:
So Kelly, mastery learning has been around for a long time. And those of us who remember the earlier incarnations of mastery learning might think of like giant packets of worksheets or just kind of this giant file sorter at the back of the room where students would go to get a worksheet that was kind of tied to their level and was kind of what they needed next. And as I read your book, I'm getting a very different impression of how you managed mastery learning in your classroom, what it looked like and what it meant. How do you help people understand the difference between kind of old school, here's a worksheet, and then go on to the next worksheet, mastery learning, versus the kind of setup that you had in your classroom?
[09:06] SPEAKER_00:
One of the biggest misconceptions of people is when they hear mastery learning, they think of that independent going through a set curriculum rather than the way that it was in my classroom. Kids would walk in, they would assess what they had accomplished the last class period, set goals for the current class period. They form these very fluid groups of who's working on similar things at that time. It absolutely is not an independent process. A group of four or five students at a time would come up to the front and we would do a five, ten minute mini lecture, mini discussion. They were ready for the content at that moment.
[09:46]
So they were engaged and they were thinking about it rather than me delivering that content to a whole classroom, only some of whom are ready and engaged for it. Students would be back at the computers watching a narrated lecture together. They would pause it and ask a question, ask me to come back. They would come up and take their quiz to see if they were ready to move on or not. And if they're not ready to move on, we grade those quizzes together, the student and I, so that they can see my thought process and we can really use those as true formative assessments. And based on that discussion, then I would say...
[10:25]
Okay, the next thing for you, I think, would be to watch that narrated PowerPoint or to, you know, come do this worksheet or, you know, talk with so-and-so because they had the same sort of misconception and they got it worked out. And so it really is a diagnostic individual. Here's your next thing to do based on where you are and what your gaps are. And so it truly is not a lockstep process of fill out this worksheet, take this quiz, move on to the next one. It was very fluid, very interactive, students working together, students coming up to me in groups asking questions or asking for an explanation. So it very much was still a dynamic learning community.
[11:10]
But the surprising thing is, as controlled chaos as that may look like, there was far more engagement throughout a 90-minute class period in that setting than when everybody is listening to the same lecture, everybody is doing the same thing. But because kids aren't ready for it at that point or because kids already are beyond it, they're not engaged. So even though it may look a little less clean, a little more messy than a traditional classroom, there's actually far more real true engagement on the part of the students.
[11:45] SPEAKER_02:
Well, and it seems like there's such ownership of the learning. When you talk about students coming in to every class period and reflecting on what they had accomplished the previous day and setting goals for today, I mean, that is a completely foreign concept in the vast majority of classrooms, that students would have that level of ownership over what they were supposed to master, over hitting those standards, over you know, learning what they were supposed to learn. I mean, traditionally, that's something that teachers kind of own. You know, I'm going to make you learn these things. But you're saying the way you set it up in your classroom, students would actually set their own goals to progress toward the kind of course goals that were outlined.
[12:28] SPEAKER_00:
Absolutely. And a book that I actually recommend every teacher or parent to read is Drive by Daniel Pink. And he talks about how much autonomy is a driving force for motivation. And I saw that. Teachers will often say to me when I talk about this with them, oh, but what about those kids that just get there and do nothing? They did nothing when I was leading them through the course, so of course they're going to do nothing if I leave it to them.
[12:54]
And actually, they don't. The fact that they have autonomy, that they have choice, that they have control over when I get to move on and if I learn this, I get to move on. I don't have to sit here and do something that's boring to me over and over again. That autonomy is amazing as a motivator for students, and I think that's a big piece of why students don't continue to fall behind when I teach in this way. They do catch up because all of a sudden they're given this ability to have control over their destiny, and it's empowering for them.
[13:33] SPEAKER_02:
So Kelly, you've shared an inspiring vision of what a science classroom, or really any classroom, can look like when it's set up to promote student-paced mastery. For school leaders who are listening to this, where do you recommend that they start? What's one action that principals can take to start moving their school in this direction?
[13:55] SPEAKER_00:
reaching out to people who are teaching in this way. Whether it's reading my book that gives lots of practical aspects as well as the research and the history and the foundation. Whether it's inviting somebody to come in and talk, allowing your teachers to go visit a classroom that's being done in this way. I've really found that when teachers are able to sit down and talk with me and ask their questions and figure out how it is I managed this, that that drops the biggest barrier to doing this, which is fear and uncomfortableness of totally transforming your classroom to a way that likely you've never experienced as a student, let alone as a teacher. And so giving teachers that access to whether it's my book or whether it's talking to somebody who's done it or visiting a classroom, that's going to be the biggest easement to that discomfort barrier.
[14:54] SPEAKER_02:
So Kelly, I appreciate the way that you have framed that for us, that we need to look at examples of where this is working because teaching for mastery is obviously not small potatoes. It's not a small change for the average classroom, but it's powerful and it's doable. And I want to really thank you for sharing that model with us, sharing your experience with us, not only in the book, but today in this interview. And if people want to find more about your work and what you do and connect with you, where can they go online?
[15:23] SPEAKER_00:
It's kellymorganscience.com. And through there, you can find Twitter and everything else through there.
[15:32] SPEAKER_02:
Fabulous. We will have a link to your website and the book on our website on the page for this episode. And Kelly, I just have to say thank you again. This has been terrific speaking with you.
[15:44] SPEAKER_01:
And now, Justin Bader on high-performance instructional leadership.
[15:48] SPEAKER_02:
So as instructional leaders, what can we do to ensure that all of our teams and departments have robust instructional models in place? In our interview today, Kelly shared her framework, her model for student-paced mastery learning, and there are lots of other great models out there in every subject area. I'd encourage you to check out Kelly's book, but more importantly, high-performance instructional leaders, check with your teams and departments and learn more about the specific models and paradigms that are guiding their work. Too often, I think as instructional leaders, we look only at the curriculum teachers are using. And with some curriculum, the instructional model is deeply embedded. It's built in the design of the materials and the lessons.
[16:28]
But with other curricula, the materials are just materials and the philosophy is either implied or it's left up to the individual teacher. And this is one of the most crucial points at which teams and departments need to be united. They need to be on the same page because their instructional model determines what happens when they collaborate. If you get teams of teachers together and they're coming from different paradigms, they're working within different frameworks, that collaboration is not going to be nearly as productive as if you get them all on the same page. So if you can only get people on the same page about one thing, focus on the philosophy, the framework. the approach that they're taking.
[17:06]
And when you get people rowing in the same direction, at that level, a lot of the day to day curricular decisions really take care of themselves. To learn how you can transform your productivity and multiply your impact. Join me for my 12 month online program, the high performance instructional leadership network. I'm Justin Bader, and I'll see you next time.
[17:32] Announcer:
Thanks for listening to Principal Center Radio. For more great episodes, subscribe on our website at principalcenter.com slash radio.
