Responsibility-Centered Discipline: Keeping Students on the Path of Accountability

[00:01] SPEAKER_01:

Welcome to Principal Center Radio, bringing you the best in professional practice.

[00:06] Announcer:

Here's your host, director of the Principal Center and champion of high performance instructional leadership, Justin Bader. Welcome everyone to Principal Center Radio.

[00:15] SPEAKER_00:

I'm your host, Justin Bader, and I'm honored to be joined today by Dr. Larry Hausner. Larry is an experienced principal with more than 14 years in the position. He is a professor at USC, and he's also the founder of Coaching School Leadership, a firm dedicated to providing coaching services to principals nationwide. And he's the author of The Principal Coaching Model, How to Plan, Design, and Implement a Successful Program.

[00:42] Announcer:

And now, our feature presentation.

[00:44] SPEAKER_00:

So Larry, welcome to Principal Center Radio.

[00:46] SPEAKER_02:

It's great to be here, Justin. Thanks for inviting me today. I appreciate it.

[00:49] SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I was excited to pick up a copy of your book because thinking back to the support that I received as a principal from a number of different coaches. I just wonder how I would have gotten through some of those tough days and some of those tough weeks and some of those tough years without the support of some really tremendous coaches. And I realize now looking back that that's actually quite rare. I was a principal in Seattle Public Schools, had excellent access to skilled coaches, had budget for it, both at the district and the school level. And as I look across the profession, I'm seeing not a lot of people are getting that kind of support, and you are on a mission to do something about that, so I'm excited to talk with you about that today.

[01:29] SPEAKER_02:

Well, I am, and it's a passion of mine, and as a principal for nearly 15 years, I've experienced what you just mentioned. I'm having some terrific support in terms of will come coaches and or mentors from time to time throughout my career, but nothing very consistent. And I worked in a couple of different school districts and I concur wholeheartedly that this is just something you don't see. It's very surprising. So I kind of feel like I'm on the front end of a wave of supporting our principals and being able to, you know, talk about the book and my research and my model for coaching, you know, uh, thankfully I haven't run up against anybody that said, well, this is a terrible idea. Everybody says, this is great.

[02:06]

It's needed. Uh, How do we get this in our school district? And so I know it's needed. It's something that's valued. But the question is, why isn't it out there more often? It is a bit of a head scratcher.

[02:18] SPEAKER_00:

Well, and we can all think of people we know who we would love to talk to, who have lots of experience, who maybe are still around in our community. But I think what's missing for a lot of people is a, how does this actually work? How do we set this up? What should we be doing? And what I appreciate about your approach in the book is that you actually went to the research to answer those questions and said, you know, what does the research say? What does the literature say about effective models for coaching principals?

[02:48]

So take us in, if we could, let's get into that research a little bit. What does the research say about effective models for coaching school administrators?

[02:55] SPEAKER_02:

Well, you know, it really begins with today's principle and the changes in the job itself. So you were principal and I've been principal for nearly 15 years. This job looks nothing like it did a decade ago. The challenges that principals are facing, the decisions that are being asked of principals, you know, it's not your father's principalship anymore. So the research shows that principals are burning out. They're moving on.

[03:20]

Here in California, where I'm located, the average tenure of a principal is about three years. And that's alarming. That's truly frightening to hear that principals are moving on at such a short rate of time. And so the research, A, paints a picture of, you know, it's kind of crisis time for principals. You know, principals are hired and they're just basically dropped into the school and kind of sink or swim model, if you will. And so the research supports a model for coaching and the need for support.

[03:50]

Where it goes from there, really, when I dove into the research was a lot of corporate coaching and mentoring. They've gotten a handle on this about 30, 40 years ago, and here we are in education just finally getting on the bandwagon that we need some coaching as well. And as an experienced principal, myself, kind of knew what worked as far as coaching. I've been coaching principals for years. But I also conducted a nationwide survey of administrators who have either been coached or were coaches and what was successful. So I took the research of the experts, my research.

[04:24]

I also have some case studies in the book. I have three that I went out and watched their model of coaching. And at the end of the day, I put together what I believe is the best model in terms of face-to-face coaching. So face to face coaching should be a on a regular basis, meaning I believe it should be at least monthly. My research from my study showed that no matter how often people were coached, Justin, they wanted more of it. Didn't matter how often.

[04:48]

So I put that as a monthly face to face visit on the campus of that particular principal or assistant principal, you know, get in the trenches with them, see and feel the culture of the school. Also, and I think this is really the most important part of the coaching relationship, it needs to be confidential. When I conducted that survey, what I got in terms of what worked and what didn't work had to do around confidentiality, trust, and honesty. Nobody wants somebody coming into their school system and trying to coach them and then feeling that they're going to go run back and tell the supervisor that, hey, Larry's really struggling with this. is community relationships. Well, that's something I want to work on without the fear of it going up the ladder.

[05:29]

So I think it's critically important to be able to have that relationship. I think it's also important not to have a curriculum for coaching. When I go and coach principals, it's not that I'm having them check boxes. So Justin, if you're a principal, I'm coaching, I walk into your office and I ask you, what are you grappling with right now that I can help you today? Have you ever talked to principals about that? There's no shortage of things that are a crisis that are happening right now that they need some help with.

[05:55]

And I think that's most effective when you're helping principals today dealing with those things that are of utmost importance to them.

[06:03] SPEAKER_00:

Well, that introduces what I think is a really key distinction. So you are talking about coaches who are not also the principal's immediate supervisor. Is that correct? There's a separation of those roles.

[06:14] SPEAKER_02:

I believe that's the most effective. Correct.

[06:17] SPEAKER_00:

Because I know when resources and people and time are scarce, you know, sometimes we do try to double up and we say, well, I'm working with this principal as their director anyway. Maybe I can take more of a coaching stance. And certainly thinking back to my supervisors when I was a principal, I appreciated it when they did take a coaching stance. And I think that's a great way to work with the people that you supervise. But at the same time, it's not the same. You know, that confidentiality is not there.

[06:42]

It is their obligation to fire me if I need it. And that's different from the role of a coach, as you said, who can protect that confidentiality and really be in a purely supportive role. So who often is called on or who shouldn't be called on to be a coach? If we've identified this separate role apart from supervision, this essential coaching role, who should be in that role and who shouldn't?

[07:05] SPEAKER_02:

Well, I think that that's an easy question to answer. And it's not just my own experience, but it's the research that I conducted as well. Your coach needs to have been a principal once upon a time. It just doesn't seem to work when somebody is coaching a principal who's never walked in those shoes. It's one of the most unique positions in education today. And surprisingly, Justin, some of those folks out there that we'll call my competition, if you will, that are working with school districts are they have a corporate model.

[07:36]

And while those corporate model folks may know a lot about leadership and vision and managing people, the missing link is actually the job itself of being a school site administrator. There's nothing else like it. And if you take a look nationwide, who are the coaches out there? They're retired folks. And obviously, they've got time to coach. It's not somebody that's a current principal that can really dedicate the time for it.

[08:01]

So I think to answer your question, it needs to be somebody who not only has been in the position, but I would even go a step further in saying somebody who's been in the position recently.

[08:10] SPEAKER_00:

Well, thinking back to some of those most helpful coaching interactions I had, where, as you said, we meet maybe once a month after school, maybe we meet at school. In some cases, I remember meeting off campus, but really talking about what's going on, what the coach could kind of help me with. What are some of the elements of a good coaching cycle or coaching interaction? Because as you said earlier, It's helpful if it is driven by the principal's current challenges, current agenda, and not trying to complete a bunch of boxes in a workbook that the coach brings along. So what does that look like in your model?

[08:45] SPEAKER_02:

Well, I think you just kind of said the words, and I'll put them together, is number one, the principal drives the agenda. I think that that's where you begin. I think that the most successful relationships that I've had as a coach are have been those where I come to a school site and I ask that principal again, what are some things I can help you with today? Or what are some things that are happening in the next week or two that I can help you with? You know, it's often something maybe centering around, you know, human resources. I've got this employee.

[09:13]

They're struggling in this department. I've got a meeting with them in the union next Tuesday. I'm not exactly sure what my role is. And so I think that that is a great place to start. I think an effective coaching piece is also role playing. And I saw this firsthand when I was in Tulsa, Oklahoma, looking at their coaching model, where I was so impressed with a coach and a high school principal.

[09:35]

And we were walking classrooms. We came out of the classroom and the coach asked the principal. So what we saw in that classroom, I think you have some conversation points and trying to support this teacher. What would be some of those things that you'd mentioned? And the principal just started to rattle them off. And the coach said, hold on a minute.

[09:54]

Let's role play this. I'll be the teacher. And you're you. You're the principal. And that not only was an accountability piece, I think, for that principal, but it was such tremendous support where she could walk through exactly what that conversation was going to sound like and feel like and could tweak it. And I thought that that was so powerful to see that role playing take place on the spot.

[10:20]

And boy, that, that principle walked away feeling so empowered. Like I know how to have this conversation with this person. It's not just give me three bullet points. It's what does it really sound like and how is this going to work? So again, I feel that that is an effective model. I think that an effective model also is some self-discovery on the principle.

[10:37]

So Part of what I do as a coach is I just don't go in and say, here's what you need to do. Or here's a story from 10 years ago, what happened to me. While sometimes I'm asked those things, it's mostly important. It's mostly effective, I think, and important when a principal and I have a conversation that is centered around the work that, not that I've done, but the work that they're doing. And I try to help lead them and push them and prod them and question them. To have some self-discovery.

[11:09]

I think that is another big part of what we're talking about here in coaching. You know, I'm a former sportscaster, so I love sports analogies. And Justin, I think about the greatest athletes of our time currently and those in the past have all had effective coaches. And it's not like you become Roger Federer and you give up, you know, your tennis coach. You know, the greatest athletes have coaches today. Why?

[11:33]

Because they need somebody to push them, to question them, to challenge them, and of course to guide them.

[11:40] SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and I think that's another big thing that we get wrong as a profession when it a part of induction. We see it as something that new people need. We see it as something that maybe struggling people need, but that's not the case in almost any other industry or profession. Top performers are top performers because they continue to get that coaching at a higher and higher level as they progress. So I appreciate you bringing that up because certainly we can appreciate the need to support people who are visibly struggling, but it's also important to remember that some of our greatest opportunities for improvement come after those struggles have been handled when somebody is doing okay and has the opportunity to move from good to great. I mean, I truly believe in our profession, that's where some of the biggest opportunities are, is where people are doing okay, they're not complaining, they're not struggling, nobody's complaining about them, but they have potential that's untapped.

[12:38]

And it's impossible to put a price tag on that potential because it's invisible, right? We can't measure it because we don't see it. But continuing to develop that potential through coaching, I think is just tremendous and not tying it to just your first year as a principal, your second year as a principal, or if you're on a plan of improvement, but really this is something for everyone that everyone can get better with.

[13:01] SPEAKER_02:

Well, I think you bring up a great point because in my book, I do talk about, you know, school districts should also be taking a look at their principals. Obviously, as the next directors and coordinators, that they are gonna move up in your organization. So to your point, why wouldn't you cultivate the talent that you have in your own system and get the most out of your principals? Because many of them do aspire to climb the ladder within the organization. Why wouldn't you want your own people to do that? So it makes sense to promote, cultivate, and support those folks in the organization already.

[13:37] SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely. And I have to say, just, you know, for superintendents from a financial perspective, I have to guess that it's a lot cheaper that way. If I think back to the people who came in to kind of senior leadership roles from outside the district, you know, almost all of them are gone now, you know. five, 10 years later, almost all of them are gone. If I think about the people who were developed as leaders by that district, you know, a large number of them are still around because that was their intention all along, you know, to stay in the community, to stay in the district. You know, I feel like there's a double benefit to investing in leaders, you know, who are committed to your district and always have been versus just always looking to the outside.

[14:16]

And it's a cost upfront, but I think it's a terrific investment to build leaders and really to create a pipeline through those development efforts.

[14:24] SPEAKER_02:

Well, you talk about the cost. Do you know the average cost to replace a principal is $25,000? That's enormous. And when I first heard that, I thought, I don't think that's true. And the more I talk to assistant supes of HR and superintendents, some have even told me that's a low figure. So why not try to cultivate the people within your organization and you can save yourself, as you said, a lot of resource, a lot of time, money, and effort, for sure.

[14:49] SPEAKER_00:

On the other end of the pipeline, there's also a retention function. You talk in the book about burnout and how principal burnout It's kind of at an all time high. It's a very different, you know, it's not your father's principalship kind of world. And we definitely see the stressors of the job playing a role in taking a toll on people. What do you see as the relationship between coaching and retention, you know, in the context of burnout and the stress of the job?

[15:14] SPEAKER_02:

Absolutely. I don't think you could put a dollar figure on it. You certainly can't put anything more than I think that you just have to focus on. You're talking about stressors. And Justin, I've done a lot of presentations in the last year with my book. And I had an opportunity to go up to Idaho this last summer at their administrators conference.

[15:35]

And you would you believe and this is a sad tale to hear that they have suffered through three principal suicides in the last 18 months. And if that doesn't rock your world. that these principals need support, then nothing will. You know, that was something that I addressed while I was up there and that's a real hard thing to talk about, but I think it goes to show not just retention of, you know, we want to keep you in the job, but clearly something is happening in the profession today where the stressors are taking a toll that we've never seen before. And I think that's why coaching not only helps principals through the job, but it also helps them stay in the job as you talk about retention. You know, I once had a superintendent, and I mentioned the book, simply state being a principal is leading on an island.

[16:22]

There's no other position on the campus but the principalship. So you might be the principal on your campus, and you've got a great high school team of assistant principals or vice principals. That's really important to have, but nobody is the principal but you. And you're alone. And you really can't go to your APs and they don't know really what the job you have. You can't go to your office manager, secretary and say, you know, empathize with me here.

[16:47]

And that's the problem. I think that school districts put so much trust in their principals. And that's a good thing. But at the same time, the lack of support for them is, yes, they're burning out. They're moving on. And.

[16:59]

Sadly, it's taking some other tolls as well, which is just heartbreaking, heartbreaking to even put our hands around.

[17:06] SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, not to mention family stress, divorce, all those things. And I'm not sad to see people say, I need to move into a different position. I feel like there are times when people do need to give themselves permission to say, you know what, this job is not for me right now. I'm not in a season of my life where this is a good fit. I want to do X, Y, Z instead. I want to move into...

[17:27]

a classroom role or an instructional coaching role or an AP role after being a principal. And I think people feel a lot of hesitation to do that, but I think it's important because it's incredibly common in our profession for people to get into jobs that are not especially doable. and to feel like they're in over their heads and there's not a lot that they can do to get out of that. And that feeling is not necessarily correct. I think with support, people can make the job doable. And certainly there are boundaries that we have to put in place.

[18:00]

But I think that role of a coach can help you figure out which of those you're dealing with and which course of action to take. And not just say to yourself, this situation is what it is and I have to make it work, you know, because the reality for a certain percentage of us in a, you know, in a certain percentage of schools and positions is we're not going to be able to do that. And I talk to people all the time who just say, you know what, I got this job and I was thrilled to get it. And now I've been in it for two years and I'm looking back and thinking, okay, Maybe this is not the one for me. Maybe I need to find something else. And as districts, I think we have to also look at what our principals are saying when they leave, you know, and saying, you know, are principals saying I'm going to leave because my family is moving across the country or because I want more money?

[18:49]

Or are they saying things like I really feel like this is an undoable job and I'm not supported? You know, and those are very hard things to hear as a leader. You know, if you're a district leader and that's what your people are saying, that is hard feedback to take. But I think it's something that we've got to start seeking out to figure out, OK, where do we need to pay more attention to the retention side and the support side? And where do we need to make sure that we're, you know, not dropping people? You know, if we have that induction support, that coaching support for their first two years and then we're dropping it, are we losing people in years three and four because they actually needed that support and they're burning out without it?

[19:26]

So thank you for mentioning all of those factors.

[19:29] SPEAKER_02:

Well, I think to answer that question about where do you start, the research in my book, and it's no surprise, that the stressors are greater in those high poverty schools and communities. And often that's where we put the newest principal in the most challenging environment without support. And that is an absolute shame. And it's a detriment to the school community, to the students, to the staff, to that actual principal as well. And it kind of leads me to also – I talked earlier about my models face-to-face, but I also have what I call e-coaching. That's virtual coaching because there are so many principles in remote areas that you can't drive to and get to them on a consistent basis.

[20:10]

And I think that that's a very – Powerful way of meeting the needs of principals who are, again, in remote locations. And even here in California, we're a diverse state. We've got people all over the place from deserts to the mountains to places that are near and far. And we need to be able to get to those folks as well because they're really feeling like they're isolated in more ways than one.

[20:34] SPEAKER_00:

I remember in one of my dissertation study interviews, I was doing Skype interviews first and then some onsite interviews. So at the end of the initial interview, I'd ask on Skype, so, you know, would it be okay if I came out to your school? And, you know, we spoke more in person. And I remember one person said, well, I guess if you want to, we're pretty far out here. And certainly for researchers, that's one set of challenges. But for support, I think you're absolutely right that that is critical, that if there is nobody nearby, the internet is a wonderful thing.

[21:03]

And you and I were both very fortunate to have lots of people locally. I probably could have called on a dozen college professors and 50 retired principals within a 10-mile radius in Seattle. But if you're in a rural area or in an international setting, absolutely being able to reach out to someone on a regular basis and have that coaching relationship is really key. And I think it's also something different than having a colleague to call on. We all build our network of colleagues who can pick up the phone and answer a quick question. How do I deal with this?

[21:34]

How do I deal with that? But the coaching relationship is really a distinct and uniquely valuable one because of that focus on how the client is doing. You know, there's a relief that comes from being the client and not just a buddy that's bugging your peer at the next high school down the road. You know, that really gives that sense of safety to open up and say, OK, here's what I'm really dealing with. Here's what I really need help with.

[22:00] SPEAKER_02:

Well, it's nice to have those relationships, right, where you can pick up the phone. But let's face it, they're principals, too. They're busy. They probably can't get back to you as quickly as you like. And that's part of my model, too, Justin, is that while I do have coaching sessions, I'm always available to my coachees via text, email, phone calls. They need that support.

[22:19]

It's you know, it's great to have that monthly conversation, but it's more than just, OK, I'll see you in January. It's what if something happens next week and I really need you? And my buddy across town, you know, he's dealing with his own crises on his campus. And that's why, you know, I like the role of being able to be there for them. And it's customizable, you know, this approach to coaching. It's differentiated, it's specific to this particular principle and their needs.

[22:43]

And so they really do appreciate having that 24-7, we'll call it support, where they know that I'm there for them when they need me.

[22:50] SPEAKER_00:

So again, the book is The Principle Coaching Model, How to Plan, Design, and Implement a Successful Program. And I would highly recommend checking that out for anyone who is looking at bringing in principals in the local area to coach, bringing in experienced people, maybe retired principals who can coach current principals, not just new principals, but anyone who is currently in the principalship and could benefit from that support. And Larry, if people are interested in finding you online, getting in touch with you about e-coaching, where's the best place for them to reach you?

[23:23] SPEAKER_02:

You know what? They can check out my website, coachingschoolleadership.com. And there's a contact page there and they can connect with me there. I'm also on Twitter so they can send me a message there. But yeah, go on my website, Coaching School Leadership.

[23:37]

I've got a lot of information there. I'm a coach too. So, you know, sometimes, you know, have these conversations and people are like, hey, what about you? I'm like, let's talk about how I can support too or help you create a model in your own community. So I think that that's a good way to get a hold of me.

[23:51] SPEAKER_00:

Well, Larry, thanks so much for your time and thanks for joining me on Principal Center Radio.

[23:54] SPEAKER_02:

Thank you, Justin. It's been a pleasure.

[23:56] Announcer:

Thanks for listening to Principal Center Radio. For more great episodes, subscribe on our website at principalcenter.com slash radio.