[00:01] SPEAKER_00:
Welcome to Principal Center Radio, bringing you the best in professional practice.
[00:06] Announcer:
Here's your host, director of the Principal Center and champion of high-performance instructional leadership, Justin Bader. Justin Bader Welcome, everyone, to Principal Center Radio.
[00:15] SPEAKER_01:
I'm your host, Justin Bader, and I'm honored to be joined today by Dr. Lynn Sherritt and Dr. Beata Planch. The author of four books, Dr. Sherritt is an international consultant and former superintendent of curriculum and instruction, and she works with doctoral candidates at the University of Toronto. And Dr. Planch is an education consultant, coach, and researcher, as well as a former superintendent who works with the graduate education program at the University of Western Ontario.
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And we're here today to talk about their new book, Leading Collaborative Learning, Empowering Excellence.
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And now, our feature presentation.
[00:50] SPEAKER_01:
Welcome to Principal Center Radio.
[00:51] SPEAKER_02:
Thanks a lot, Justin. We're really pleased to be with you today. And we're focusing on our work over many years together in a very large school district just north of Toronto, Canada. And we firmly believe that foundational to all improvement is at the system level, the school level, and in classrooms is collaboration. So we've spent several years developing our theories and putting them into practice, field testing them and researching them in order to write our book.
[01:29] SPEAKER_01:
And collaboration is one of those ideas that we know is at the heart of success in complex environments. You know, the work is so complex now that it's not a kind of solo practitioner world anymore. We know we have to collaborate. We know our organizations have to be places where collaboration is a reality. As is often the case when a big idea really permeates the profession, often the reality on the ground doesn't match our vision of what collaboration can be and should be. So in terms of a definition or some kind of boundaries around the idea of collaborative learning, what's your central construct and definition of collaborative learning?
[02:07] SPEAKER_02:
Thanks, Justin. You know, I think it was important for us to reframe what we mean by collaboration because it's much more than just working together. It's actually a form of co-laboring to us where we're responsible and accountable for our own learning, but also responsible for supporting the learning of our collaborators. We really believe in fostering an interdependence in the way we're working together so we can negotiate meaning and relevance together. And that sense of collaborative learning really being very focused is something that permeates throughout the book. I think that purposeful and accountable collaboration must begin with a clear goal in mind.
[02:50]
And we know that we make a difference to increasing students' achievement when we have a clear purpose that's focused on everyone's learning.
[03:03] SPEAKER_01:
And I know professionally you've done a lot with curriculum and with data. And I wonder if you could identify kind of a starting point for us in that collaborative work, because I think often we know that as school leaders we're supposed to try to facilitate collaboration. So often the first thing that happens is a meeting, you know, a scheduled meeting time where teachers are supposed to get together and collaborate, but we don't necessarily have a data-driven starting point or a theory-driven starting point for that collaboration. I think often that's where we feel like we're just kind of drifting. So where does it start for you?
[03:36] SPEAKER_02:
Well, for us, it starts by making sure that we distinguish between meetings and those opportunities to collaborate. Because if we're going to collaborate and be focused on student improvement in terms of their achievement, we have to begin by analyzing the evidence of student learning. What's the impact of our teaching and our organization on student learning? And so for us, this whole process is really an assessment-driven process. you know, sort of gathering and analyzing assessment for learning information. It may be school data, it may be system data, it may be classroom data, it may be grade level data that we want to analyze.
[04:17]
But we begin always with student evidence and we keep that focus on student evidence because that's really what drives our growing sense of interdependence you know we're actually learning together in terms of how to respond to student needs and then that assessment leads us to being able to make some informed decisions in terms of teaching and also you know whatever actions we want to plan. Planning for action, if it's been driven through assessment of student work and student learning, becomes much more purposeful. And sort of to add to that cycle, then we look at whatever actions we planned, we have to leave open the door for continuous refinement. So we call that assessment in action, that we don't just decide that we're going to be stuck with an action.
[05:08]
If we see it's not going well, we want to refine it right away. and then later on have a chance to reflect on it. What is the impact of that action on student learning? What's the impact of the actions we've decided to do or take or learn about on our own learning? So our theory of action around collaborative work is driven by assessment at every stage of the game. And we have developed in the book a four-stage process which Beata just defined for us.
[05:36]
Yes, it begins with data, but certainly results in impact on students' learning when it's purposeful and it's followed through as a cycle. And then when our question of practice has been solved, we move on to another cycle.
[05:53] SPEAKER_01:
So if I'm understanding correctly, you're beginning a cycle with a particular problem of practice in mind and a data source?
[05:59] SPEAKER_02:
Right. So we start with data and then decide what is it that we need to know more about, given this is our data.
[06:05] SPEAKER_01:
And then in terms of kind of the grain size of the data that you're working with, you know, often we already have standardized test data on an annual basis. Increasingly, we're seeing that schools have some sort of computer-based test, whether it's a map assessment, some sort of reading assessment. We have these existing data sources, but what do you find tend to be the best starting points in terms of data for generating those concerns or those questions that lead to that cycle of inquiry?
[06:32] SPEAKER_02:
Well, in our context, assessment data is broader than test data. We need to also think about the perceptions about learning that students bring to any task. What do we see in their learning that tells us that they have some confidence? Or do we need to work as well on some of the social-emotional aspects of learning? So yes, assessment test data, you know, in Ontario we would have provincial data. Those are important, but the day-to-day work that teachers do or principals do with their teachers in schools and those conversations we have with students as well as our observations gives us a much richer sense of how a student or group of students is performing.
[07:14]
For us, it's much more than the test.
[07:16] SPEAKER_01:
I'm excited to hear you say that because I think as frontline educators, we've been taught not to trust our own professional judgment about our students as we've had more tests rolled out to us. We've had more kind of black box tests come into our schools where we don't even really get to see the questions. We don't really get to see what went into the scoring. It's just kind of something that's done to collect data rather than something that's really done to inform professional judgment and give us more information about our students. But I think you're absolutely right. The way that we work with students on a day-to-day basis gives us such a rich basis for professional judgment that actually does tell us things that can be a lot more valuable than what's on kind of a standardized test.
[07:52]
So I think that's a fabulous recognition there, you know, that as we put our heads together, as we start to work together, it is our overall knowledge of our students that can serve as the basis for that collaboration. I wonder if you could talk to us more about what that process looks like for teachers who are sitting down together and they've looked at some data, they've reviewed their students' work, they've talked about what they're seeing in class in terms of student need. What are some collaborative processes that can lead to productive conversations, that can lead to productive decision-making and changes in practice?
[08:23] SPEAKER_02:
Justin, I just wanted to start with data and that conversation that we've just had in that to me, data at the system level or at the state level has a place in terms of showing trends and patterns over time. So we don't want to make any disparaging comments about that data. However, When we're talking about collaborative inquiry, we feel that the strongest assessments are those that our teacher made and the strongest data we can collect to make informed decisions on would be student work, for example. So I just wanted to clarify that. And some of the things that we talk about in the book are very practical ways of using
[09:16]
as a foundation for learning, learning with leaders, learning with teacher leaders, learning with teachers, and of course, importantly, learning with students. So we talk about the collaborative assessment of student work as a powerful driver that needs to be shaped by operating norms and protocols, which we've included in our book. We talk about the case management approach, which is two-pronged. data walls that lead to case management meetings. So that means putting faces on the data for everyone to see when they're co-constructed by teachers and leaders.
[09:56] SPEAKER_01:
You should write a book about that. I think that would be helpful. Tell us what that means. What does it mean to put faces on the data?
[10:03] SPEAKER_02:
Well, that means that we use student work. For example, we use knowledge of our students to co-construct a wall. So a place where we can go and have rich conversations about practice and rich conversations about those students on the wall, ensuring that not one face dies. slips between the cracks. And when we have a student that we're really concerned about, and that student may be struggling, that student may be stuck, or that student may need extending, we bring each face individually to a case management meeting. That's a meeting within the school day.
[10:43]
And it's a meeting where the student attends only by a piece of student work being there. And everyone around the table then talks about instruction for this student so it's not a meeting that is about behavior or students who are identified with special needs that's a different process this is a meeting for teachers to attend and get support around being able to instruct each face so we talk also in the book about the four c's co-planning, co-teaching, co-debriefing, and co-reflecting as a very collaborative process. We talk about collaborative inquiry at every level, system, school, and classroom. And then we talk about learning walks and talks, answering the question, how do you know all students are learning?
[11:37]
So there are several very practical processes we have in the book that highlight the need for the foundational pieces of collaboration. And if I could just add to Lynn's point, Justin, there's a place for large-scale data, but we're really talking in the book about the co-learning conditions that are there for professionals and the co-learning conditions that are there for students. And so some of the processes that Lynn has just outlined really develop that culture of co-learning in a school and where leadership can be a shared process as well.
[12:17] SPEAKER_01:
And just as an aside before we return to the book that we're talking about today, Lynn, you do have a book called Putting Faces on the Data, co-authored with Michael Fullan that, of course, you knew I was referring to. I want to make sure our listeners were aware of that as well. But yeah, let's talk more about the leadership angle, because what a lot of principals find out the hard way doesn't work is to simply view the leadership responsibility as to create time and to create a mandate. And I think often what we encounter is the reality that the capacity to do this work collaboratively requires more than that. So I wonder if you could tell us what you found to be the key contributions of leaders and some of the actions that we can take as school-based leaders to create those conditions for co-learning.
[12:58] SPEAKER_02:
Well, certainly time is always going to be a resource in short supply, but I think the vital leadership supports at all levels, especially for staff, is to, within that culture of co-learning, make sure that it's a non-judgmental culture because you can't encourage risk-taking without it. And so we separate evaluation teacher performance processes from co-learning processes. We also believe, though, that there are some leadership skills to be developed in both formal and informal leaders in the school in terms of understanding how to facilitate collaborative processes. And we include some of those supports as well. So facilitations training is something that we need to also think about for promising new leaders that are coming up through the ranks, because I think it's a skill set that really serves everyone well.
[13:53]
You know, I think there are questions that individual leaders need to ask themselves if they're trying to develop a culture for collaboration and collaborative learning. There's no doubt that leaders need to be able to articulate a clear vision. They have to have a sense of a path forward because they are modeling their co-learning skills themselves. They need to be able to facilitate a team approach and to also model an inquiry approach and to also say, I'm not perfect at this game. I'm a co-learner with you. And certainly breaking down those goals within an inquiry, you know, can be really well facilitated with a leader who has that overall sense of vision and purpose.
[14:36]
So just into that, I just want to allude to our research participants. We had over 450 participants in our research model. And here are some things that they mentioned that leaders need to embrace. Number one, build strong relationships. Number two, articulate clearly why the collaboration is important and purposeful. Number three, model a positive growth mindset.
[15:10]
Number four, maintain student learning as the driver for the collaboration. Number five, ensure that participation and collaboration endeavors is inclusive of everyone and not an elitist process. And finally, the last one is to partner with staff that is co-construct clear learning goals for the collaboration. And we'd also like to see success criteria. So there's conversation about why are we doing this and how do we know we'll be successful? And of course, for us that.
[15:43]
is about increasing all students' achievement.
[15:46] SPEAKER_01:
So Dr. Sherritt and Dr. Planch, as we think about going beyond the individual school level, I mean, in most districts we find pockets of excellence where those collaborative conditions, those collaborative processes are in place, have been in place for a long time. But what we tend to struggle with is making that the reality in all schools. And we know that that can become over time a major equity issue where we have these schools that have a lot of capacity built and other schools where it seems to really be a struggle to get people to work together. And I wonder if you could talk to us about the system level leadership, knowing your rich background as system level leaders and as researchers.
[16:19]
What have you seen that system level leaders can do to build that capacity, not only in their leadership teams, but among teachers to make sure that this level of collaboration can actually happen at scale?
[16:28] SPEAKER_02:
I think we can draw on our experiences both at the provincial or state level and at a very large district school board level and a district with over 130,000 students. And I think we find that the results that we've achieved here don't happen by good luck. They happen because it's been a collaboratively planned, comprehensive approach to improvement. And for us, that's having a clear vision, carefully articulated, having resources that have been purchased and supported, funded at the district and provincial levels, and having knowledgeable others, I would say is number three, who are folks who will work alongside leaders and teachers in classroom who not only are knowledgeable,
[17:24]
about teaching and learning, but also have strong interpersonal skills. And as Beata said, understand the facilitation needed so that it's focused on students' improvement. One year's growth for one year at school. Piatta, what would you add? I would add, you know, our experience has been that we were really well served at the sort of provincial and the equivalent would be the state level with the resource supports to be able to allow principals to co-learn across schools and for principals and teachers to be able to co-learn as well. And there is no substitute for hard work when it comes to moving a system forward.
[18:07]
It doesn't happen overnight, but it is an accumulative effect. And so sustaining the effort, persisting, staying with the vision for a fairly lengthy period of time so that that collaboration is seen as being very purposeful and valuable, that's made a tremendous difference in our context. It's been an investment in time and resources, that combination of, as Lynn said, a knowledgeable other whose content knowledge in a particular area, as well as the facilitation skills that leaders need to bring the two things together. I do think that there are barriers that have to be worked through in terms of, you know, those conversations that we have with all stakeholders. Keeping the purpose on the front burner is absolutely crucial. And it isn't as much about resources that are, you know, sort of packaged.
[19:01]
It's about having those environments which help people to unpack learning expectations, building some success criteria together. informed practice, assessment of that practice, and assessment of the impact on student learning. That's quite a cycle that one has to go through, and certainly it takes time, but it also is very empowering when you feel you are actually a part of that journey at a systems school and classroom level.
[19:35] SPEAKER_00:
And now, Justin Bader on high-performance instructional leadership.
[19:39] SPEAKER_01:
So high-performance instructional leaders, what did you take away from my conversation with Dr. Planch and Dr. Sherritt? One thing I was impressed by is their emphasis on vision. I mean, often we get the idea that vision is just something we have to be clear about up front, and then we need to be clear on the process that we're going to go through, and that's all we need. And one of the key messages that I took away from our conversation was, was that that vision really has to be sustained.
[20:05]
It will die without purposeful, sustained leadership effort to keep that vision alive and to keep that vision at the forefront. I was also impressed by the depth of their description of what collaborative learning looks like and what the work that we need to do as professionals involves. And I think we want to make things simple for people. We want to give people clear guidance on process and on expectations. But the more we get into the work, the more we realize it is challenging and it does require continuous professional learning. It does require that we put our heads together and that we stay sharp and that, again, we sustain that vision.
[20:42]
And one thing I wanna encourage you to do, if you are a mid-level system leader, if you're an assistant superintendent, if you are a director, or if you're a principal, I want to encourage you to advocate for that sustained effort and sustained vision around collaboration or around your key instructional priorities, because the reality is in many districts, especially I think the larger your district is, the more likely it is that there is going to be leadership turnover at the top. And often when that occurs, the vision changes, the priorities change. But when you find something that's making a difference in the culture of your school, that's making a difference in the performance of your organization, you have got to advocate for that so that the ship does not rapidly zigzag in different directions every time there's a leadership change. So if you are in that assistant superintendent role, in that director role, in that principal role, advocate for the conditions for learning that your teachers need and that your students need.
[21:39]
Speaking of bringing students to the table, whether it's through their work or through their voice represented in some way and perhaps personally, one book that I was reminded of as we talked is Dr. Russell Qualia's work on student voice and aspirations. So if you want to make sure that your students are present in the decisions that you're making as a leadership team or as a system survey your students bring them to meetings ask them their opinions and make sure that they are represented that they are at the table as you're making critical decisions and one final recommendation there's no substitute for getting into classrooms and seeing what your students are experiencing on a day-to-day basis So I want to challenge you to get into classrooms every day. If you are a district or system level leader, I want to challenge you to get into classrooms at least a couple of times a week, go out to a school, grab an administrator and get into classrooms and see what your students are learning, what their experience of learning is, and use that to inform the decisions that you make as a leader.
[22:37]
If I can support you in that, I want to invite you to check out our free program, the 21 Day Instructional Leadership Challenge at instructionalleadershipchallenge.com.
[22:46] Announcer:
Thanks for listening to Principal Center Radio. For more great episodes, subscribe on our website at principalcenter.com slash radio.
