[00:01] Announcer:
Welcome to Principal Center Radio, helping you build capacity for instructional leadership. Here's your host, Director of the Principal Center, Dr. Justin Bader. Welcome, everyone, to Principal Center Radio.
[00:13] SPEAKER_01:
I'm your host, Justin Bader, and I'm honored to welcome to the program today Dr. Marci Beagle. Dr. Marci is the founder and director of Behavior and Beyond. By redesigning behavior with realistic strategies, Dr. Marci has been transforming classrooms, families, and students since 1998.
[00:29]
She is a board-certified behavior analyst, holds a doctorate from Columbia University, and appears regularly as a guest expert on TV and in other media. She's the author of two books on behavior, including Love Your Family Again and Love Your Classroom Again, which we're here to talk about today.
[00:45] Announcer:
And now, our feature presentation.
[00:49] SPEAKER_01:
Dr. Marci, welcome to Principal Center Radio.
[00:51] SPEAKER_00:
Thank you. I am so excited to be here.
[00:53] SPEAKER_01:
So Dr. Marcy, you've written a book called Love Your Classroom Again, Realistic Behavior Strategies for Educators. What have you seen happen when teachers are struggling with maybe a particular student's behavior or maybe an entire class's behavior that maybe for a while makes them stop loving their classroom?
[01:12] SPEAKER_00:
When teachers start in the world of education, it's with enthusiasm and energy and joy, and they're excited to make a difference in children's lives. And then sometimes the day-to-day rigor of what needs to be done from lesson planning to grading papers to getting supplies ready can exhaust us, can make it feel less than enthusiastic to get up and do what we need to do every day. And so while many teachers never lose their love for kids, they lose their love for their classroom and for teaching overall. So I wanted to write a book that provided teachers with some of the strategies that they were never taught, that they haven't heard of before, because for some reason, how behavior works is one of the best kept secrets in education.
[02:01] SPEAKER_01:
Yeah, well, let's get right into that. What are some of the misconceptions that we as adults and as educators tend to have about student behavior?
[02:08] SPEAKER_00:
The biggest one that I see is that if we keep telling a child no, that eventually they will know what to do that is right. In so many classrooms, the way we discipline is by saying no and don't and stop and correcting, yet never actually teaching them the appropriate behavior to begin with. And when we take a proactive approach, it allows children to learn what they need to do right because behavior is just a form of communication. So if a child needs attention and doesn't have any other way to do it, they will become disruptive until you teach them how to get that attention in the appropriate form.
[02:46] SPEAKER_01:
I love that perspective of seeing it as something that needs to be taught, right? That we don't expect any of our students in any subject to get negative feedback, you know, be told no or what they said was wrong or what they did was wrong and then figure it out on their own, right? We have to teach everything, whether it's math or science or reading or behavior.
[03:08] SPEAKER_00:
Exactly, right? We would never say to a kid when we ask them, what's two plus two? And they say seven. We would never say, no, try again. Two plus two is three. No, try again.
[03:19]
We wouldn't continuously do that perpetually. I mean, if they're in seventh grade and we expect them to know that and they've known it for many years, maybe. But when they're just learning that skill, we do repetition of two plus two is four. Two plus two is what? Yep, it's four. You got it.
[03:37]
Yet when it comes to behavior, we don't take that approach in the world of education. The kid that calls out gets reprimanded. They get a mark on the board. They get sent to the principal's office as opposed to being taught how to sit and listen.
[03:52] SPEAKER_01:
So let's take it from the student's perspective for a moment. If they're using some sort of behavior, attempting to meet a need, attempting to communicate, and it's not successful, the teacher is not happy with their behavior, the student does not get what they want. What's kind of going on in the student's mind that we need to understand as adults if we're going to reach that student effectively?
[04:13] SPEAKER_00:
Yes. So what you said is really interesting because the student is getting what they want. A behavior only sticks around if it works. Now we as the adults, we assume it's not working because the child is getting disciplined, they're getting in trouble, they're being sent out of the classroom. But if that behavior increases or even just continues, it means that the consequence, the result of the behavior is something they actually like. So they might like being kicked out of math class, which might tell us that math is really hard and they're trying to get out of that class.
[04:48]
Or they might like that you yell at them perpetually because if they don't call out, then you don't even talk to them at all. And they'd rather the negative attention than no attention. So our perspective as adults needs to shift from it's not working to, oh, what is it that they are enjoying in this consequence? For the kid, all they know is that they need something and they found a way to get it. That's not a conscious, manipulative, you know, this is a bad kid. It is an unconscious experience that they've learned.
[05:22]
This is really hard and overwhelming and I don't like it. So if I hit my neighbor, they kick me out of the class and then I don't need to deal with math.
[05:30] SPEAKER_01:
One thing I really appreciate about the book is that it's organized into specific scenarios that will sound familiar to any teacher or any administrator, specific behaviors that we need to find some way to kind of get beyond. And One of the challenges that I think is universal for teachers is that we want to have more time to give more attention to each individual student, especially the students that need our help the most. But there's only one teacher in the room. There's only so much time in the day. And if a student is asking for an extreme amount of individual attention or calling attention to themselves, we don't always feel that we can give that attention without taking something away from the rest of the class in a way that's unfair. So I wonder if we could get into a couple of specific scenarios where maybe we have a student who's blurting out or whining or somehow demanding far more attention than we feel we can devote to that one particular student throughout the day.
[06:28]
What are some strategies for a scenario like that?
[06:31] SPEAKER_00:
So one of the biggest strategies I have is to recognize how much attention are you actively giving that child with the negative behavior, right? That child that is calling out all the time, how much of your class time are you actually stopping, correcting, redirecting, addressing that problem behavior? Because that means that you have just as much of that time to go proactively into it, which is something that we often forget Teachers don't want to mess up the flow of their classroom or create a problem when it's not there. So taking the time to proactively set up that child for success feels impossible. But when you pause first and look at what you are currently doing and how much energy and attention you're spending, you have at least that much time to put into the correction.
[07:25]
So that kiddo who is always calling out, when you start a lesson, ask them first, before they call out, ask them to participate. Before they call out, tell them that they're doing a great job sitting and listening. Before they call out, give them a job in the classroom so that they can be the helper who passes out the papers so they get to say hi to every single kid in the class as they hand out the paper because the disruption is already there and I would much rather it be in the teacher's control around the timing of the disruption than in the child's control. Same exact scenario would work for a kiddo who's whining, right? If they're just kind of mumbling under their breath about how hard this is or that they don't like what's happening, super disruptive. And what often happens for teachers is then they'll say things throughout the entire school day, stop talking.
[08:21]
I told you to stop talking. You need to focus on your work. Now is not the time for those kinds of comments. And if they took just as many instances of proactively saying, hey, I know you're going to sit nice and quietly. I know you're going to focus on your work. You're doing an amazing job being quiet.
[08:37]
That student is going to get the same amount of attention while learning how to behave appropriately in their classroom. It requires a little more forethought initially from the teacher, but on the back end of it, they get back all of that time that was being disruptive.
[08:55] SPEAKER_01:
Well, I love that shift in perspective from, you know, I don't have the time to give this student that much attention, to flip that around and say, whether I like it or not, I'm already devoting this much time and attention to this particular student, and we're getting the negatives of no. behavior. It's affecting everyone else. So if I accept reality that the student currently is consuming that much time, and I decide to flip that around and be proactive about it, perhaps we can start to whittle that down. But I can't necessarily fight the student on how much time and attention they demand right now, but with the behavior being where it is.
[09:33] SPEAKER_00:
Exactly. And the magic of it being teacher controlled is when it's a disruptive behavior, when the they're disrupting the classroom and the teacher has to give it to keep the rest of the class on track, we have no control. We as the adults can't adjust the amount of attention that's being given. But if you flip it so that you are giving that positive attention, right? I love your framework of accepting reality because with behavior change, there's a lot of that. Let's look at what's really happening.
[10:04]
You accept the reality and you flip it and you start giving it to that child. Every time that student needs it, you then will be able to increase the time in between because then they're going to be used to just receiving it. They won't have to demand it anymore and it will be on your schedule. So maybe initially they need you to acknowledge them every five minutes, which feels impossible as a teacher, but you're already doing it. So every five minutes you're going in, you're telling them something, you're giving them a high five, you're letting them know, And then they stop demanding it. So it's all because you're giving it.
[10:39]
Then you can start going to every six minutes you give it. And then every seven minutes. You have to go slow so that their system doesn't recognize and then start demanding the attention. But if you go slow, you can start to spread it out so that over time they will need less attention. But we can't teach them that piece until we are in control of when they're getting that attention.
[11:04] SPEAKER_01:
Let's jump, if we could, to the opposite problem, where we're just getting nothing from a student, where there's maybe no eye contact. I know you have a chapter on that in the book, a blank stare, no response. And especially since we began doing a lot of instruction remotely, virtual instruction, classes, perhaps online classes where a teacher logs in and is giving a lecture or teaching a lesson, perhaps on Zoom. And I've heard from many, many teachers who are frustrated that all of the students have their cameras off and nobody is participating in the chat. And theoretically, we have a couple dozen students logged in, but we get nothing. Or perhaps it's asynchronous and there's just no work being turned in.
[11:50]
To take a, you know, we've talked a lot about that in our work from a, from kind of a teaching perspective, but from a behavior perspective specifically, help us understand what's going on there and what can educators do when they're just kind of getting nothing from their students?
[12:06] SPEAKER_00:
Yeah. So it could be a few different things and in real time in the classroom is very different than virtually. So I'm going to talk about the classroom first and then virtually is certainly something that That is a different scenario, but behaviorally challenging as well. So in the classroom, that kid who just doesn't answer kind of stares back at you blankly or doesn't even look at you. There is one of two things happening. One is that child may have learned that if I wait long enough, you will give up and go to somebody else.
[12:40]
So I don't even have to try. It's kind of the inner monologue of, I don't know, this is too hard. Oftentimes that kid feels like they're dumb anyway, so they're not going to know the answer. So they just wait till you push off to somebody else or get a friend to help them. So my recommendation to teachers around that is either continue to wait and kind of push them into that place where they have to at least try. I'm a big fan of telling kids they have to try.
[13:09]
It's a guess. It doesn't have to be right, but they have to give me something because that teaches them to start thinking for themselves and And what kids will learn is that they start having the right answer. They were just scared to say it because they're used to being wrong. And so you can pick your scenarios very intentionally of when you call on that child to make sure that you can actually wait for them to give that answer and build up their confidence that no matter what they say, right or wrong, they're going to be supported by you. The other scenario around that is for kiddos who are perfectionists. who are scared of making an error, who just are a little bit paralyzed when they aren't 100% certain.
[13:50]
Same intervention, right? Making sure that you're telling them to try right or wrong. It's about the experience of giving an answer and then creating times and spaces where you can wait for them, where it can be an answer or having them write down their answer if they don't want to say it out loud, right? So those are the two general scenarios around that. Now, when we're doing things online, it's a very different experience because you have to set up the clarity of whether it is required for your kids to have their camera on or not. And the social dynamic around being on video on screen where you can see yourself and all of your classmates the entire time has also led to a new form of social anxiety.
[14:38]
So some of those kids aren't having their camera on. because they're doing something else that they shouldn't be doing in their home. Some of them don't have their camera on because they're not liking the experience. It doesn't feel good to them to actually see it and they can pay attention better if they're not nervous about watching themselves and their peers. And then the third group is those kids whose cameras aren't working and can't get that visual in as well. And so recognizing that those different scenarios are happening across your classroom and you don't necessarily know who's doing what is part of what you need to have compassion as, as a teacher, as an administrator, that those variables are things that we don't really know.
[15:22]
And so finding a way to be as engaging as possible, to encourage your kids to show up for us as the adults to have our cameras on so they can see us and see us being brave and talk about it. I know that there are lots of teachers who don't like being on camera, but are doing it for their kids. And if we give voice to that, it might show them that it's okay for them to do it. It also is a really powerful reminder to partner with parents as much as you can, because they are the eyes in your quote unquote virtual classroom. So the more you can connect with them around getting some of that behavior shifted and ensuring that the students are actually engaged with the content that they should be learning. And then the final piece of that is letting go of what you can't control.
[16:08]
As much as teachers are responsible and feel committed to making sure their kids are learning, when it's virtual, you have to have the support of the adults who are around them in their real life and in real time. And so there's only so much you're going to be able to do and push. And so you have to know that you're putting good educational content out there and hoping that they're hooking onto it and learning with you and then letting go of what you can't control.
[16:36] SPEAKER_01:
I think that's hard for us as educators because we've been told for our entire lives and we've internalized the value that there is a lot that we can control. And we should not blame outside factors for the results we're getting with students. We should take as much responsibility as possible and do whatever it takes to get our students to where we need them to be. And especially when we are working remotely. remotely, especially when we do not have students in the classroom with us in person, there is a lot that we don't control. So how can we deal with that?
[17:09]
How can we both take that responsibility and recognize the very real limitations on what we do control and what we're able to make happen in a remote context?
[17:20] SPEAKER_00:
Yes. I love this question because it brings in all of the dualities that teachers are living in, that schools are living in, that the world of education is living in. And it very much is that duality. It is your responsibility to educate the child and you don't have control over what's happening. And so recognizing if you're doing distance learning, if you're teaching kids virtually right now, that it is different when they are in your classrooms. Because when they are in your classroom, you can see what they're doing.
[17:53]
You can control the learning environment. You have more immediate impact on what's happening. So it goes back to that space of accepting the reality. Look at what are the pieces that you do actually have control over that you can actually impact. Do all of the pieces that you can to the best of your ability and recognize that this is different. then that world in which we were taught, you have to make sure that this is all on you to get these children to learn.
[18:24]
Because if your children are in a space where their home environment is not conducive to learning, you can't control that. You can only control the quality of the educational element that you're putting in. So make a list of what are the action steps? What are the things that you can do to ensure the success of your students? How can you encourage them? How can you be clear with your expectations from them?
[18:50]
How can you make learning accessible for them? And then follow those action steps and let the rest of it go. But the answer to some of those really big feelings that teachers are struggling with of not being able to do enough is to recognize how much you are already doing. So for me, I like to write it down and look at it and go, wow, that's a lot of things. And celebrate myself even when it feels like nobody else is. Because teachers and schools right now are doing a huge, huge job.
[19:24]
And without that recognition, they're going to be even more burnt out than they already are.
[19:30] SPEAKER_01:
Well, I'm tempted to ask where there are some opportunities to see a strategy that will work for a student that we might also need to either use on ourselves or use with our colleagues who may have some of the same kind of problematic behaviors. Help us think in terms of collegial relationships a little bit when we maybe see some of the same behaviors. I think every principal has experienced faculty members who whine in staff meetings or who don't pay attention or don't follow through. Is it different with adults? Do these same strategies work?
[20:09] SPEAKER_00:
The same exact strategies work. It is one of the reasons why I love behavior so much. is the core principles, the foundation of how it works, is the same across all humans. So whether it's a teacher to a child, a teacher to a colleague, a principal to a teacher, a significant other to a significant other, it's not relationship dependent. It's not based on the type of relationship. It's just based on the behavioral relationship.
[20:41]
If you are an administrator and you know that one of your teachers is constantly whining and interrupting in the meeting, think about the tools that I gave for that and say, oh yeah, I am constantly reminding them that we can talk about that later and we can have a conversation about that, but this is not the right time. And every time they interrupt, you're giving them attention. So how can you set them up for them to know that they're going to have your attention, that they are important, that their work is valued? without it being disruptive to the flow of a meeting, to the flow of a conversation that you need to have going in a bigger group. Same rules.
[21:19] SPEAKER_01:
Yeah, I'm thinking about staff members who just need to talk in order to think. They cannot sit still and listen and think. They really need to talk through something. And when I realized that in faculty meetings, if I built in time for people to talk at their tables, that can all happen simultaneously. All the people who need to talk in order to think and process and be able to make a decision get to do that. But if we stay whole group the entire time, all of those people are going to have to talk One on one, you know, one at a time, back to back, and we're never going to get done with the discussion.
[21:52]
So yeah, just again, accepting reality that that is how it is, how people are, and we can adapt. We can solve that problem.
[22:00] SPEAKER_00:
Right. And what that makes me think of is in classrooms, we don't do lecture style teaching all day long, or at least hopefully we don't. We do some informing, and then there's some small group activity where they get to apply it or talk it through and problem solve. Same thing in the staff meetings. I don't want to say that we want to treat our staff like we treat our kids, but behaviorally, it's the same thing because it's human behavior that follows these principles.
[22:30] SPEAKER_01:
Well, Dr. Marcy, one more thing I wanted to ask about was the idea of our own behavior, maybe some of our behaviors around taking care of ourselves in a stressful time. And I think this has probably been the most stressful year ever for educators. So what are some of your recommendations on that front?
[22:50] SPEAKER_00:
Yes. So one of the reasons I love education is that We are such selfless humans, right? Teachers and administrators in school give so much to their kids and it is so important that they're making sure to take time and carve out that time to take care of themselves. So small things like making sure you actually eat breakfast, lunch, and dinner can really make a huge difference in your capacity to make it through the day. Make sure you're drinking water. make sure you get time outside.
[23:21]
We make sure our kids go outside and play. We talk to them about that. Yet it is so easy to spend all day inside, whether you are teaching in a school building because you just have so many things to do or teaching virtually where you don't take that break and go for the walk at lunchtime. Making sure that you are doing that is what makes your job sustainable. And for so many adults, there is guilt around that of, but I should be doing more for my kids. And when you put yourself in that place of should, it is making them a priority over yourself.
[23:54]
And the only way that you can continue to show up and serve your kids is to recognize how important it is that you take care of yourself and that you walk your talk. So when your students see that you're having good, healthy food for lunch, it inspires them to have good, healthy food for lunch. When your students hear that you went to bed early, it inspires them to actually go to bed early. when they hear that you took time to take a bath at night to relax because you were stressed, it inspires them to take care of themselves. So not only do we have to teach our kids all of the academic things that are important, but we also get to inspire them by how we live our lives. And by doing things that inspire your kids will also help maintain your capacity to be an amazing teacher.
[24:44]
So please make sure that you are taking care of yourself, especially as stress levels are high when uncertainty is high. Take care of you.
[24:53] SPEAKER_01:
So the book is Love Your Classroom Again, Realistic Behavior Strategies for Educators. And Dr. Marci, if people want to learn more about your work or your books or get in touch with you, where's the best place for them to find you online?
[25:06] SPEAKER_00:
The best place to find me is on my website, which is drmarcie.com, D-R-M-A-R-C-I-E.com. You can find all of my resources, all of my information there, and I would love to have them join my community.
[25:20] SPEAKER_01:
Fabulous. Thank you so much for joining us on Principal Center Radio.
[25:23] SPEAKER_00:
Thank you so much for having me. This has been amazing.
[25:26] Announcer:
Thanks for listening to Principal Center Radio. For more great episodes, subscribe on our website at principalcenter.com slash radio.
