[00:01] Announcer:
Welcome to Principal Center Radio, helping you build capacity for instructional leadership. Here's your host, Director of the Principal Center, Dr. Justin Bader. Welcome, everyone, to Principal Center Radio.
[00:13] SPEAKER_01:
I'm your host, Justin Bader, and I'm honored to welcome back to the program my friend and colleague, Matt Renwick. Matt is an author and literacy instructional leadership expert who serves as principal of Mineral Point Elementary in Wisconsin. And he writes at Read by Example on Substack and Twitter. Matt is the author of three books. And we're here today to talk about his latest book, Leading Like a Coach, Five Strategies for Supporting Teaching and Learning.
[00:41] Announcer:
And now, our feature presentation.
[00:43] SPEAKER_01:
Matt, welcome back to Principal Center Radio.
[00:45] SPEAKER_00:
Thanks, Dustin. I'm happy to be here.
[00:47] SPEAKER_01:
Well, I'm very excited to talk about this new book because I feel like it blends your two greatest professional passions and areas of expertise, instructional leadership and literacy. What did this book grow out of? Tell us a little bit about the origin story of this book in your work as an instructional leader and what you've been doing in your school. How did this book come together?
[01:11] SPEAKER_00:
yeah i like that origin story my my son is into comics and drawing and reading those would appreciate that um the origin story for this happened about a decade ago i was a newly minted head principal i had taught for several years and then i was an assistant principal and i now had my own school so to speak my first year i was doing a lot of evaluations And it just wasn't seeing any real impact in my classrooms that I was observing in, really kind of moving the needle, as they say, on instruction. It was kind of something we went through. And I know you've had that same experience, Justin, you know, as a principal as well as, you know, we just want to have some kind of influence. We want to make a difference. That's why we get into this work. And so I actually wrote a blog, said, can a principal also be a coach?
[02:02]
It was in 2000, literally 2012. And it's, you know, 2022. And I got a good response to that, you know, because other people were wondering the same thing. Like, there has to be more to this. We want to expand the role, so to speak. And that's what I've been working on the last 10 years is I've taken...
[02:19]
instructional coaching training, both like connected coaching, you know, coaching online and also instructional coaching training kind of founded on cognitive coaching. And and this is the result is is applying those principles and practices within a leadership role and just really seeing some great results and It just feels like the job is more rewarding. And so I wanted to share these ideas with other leaders who also want to get into collaborations, make a difference, but aren't sure how. And I think this can help.
[02:53] SPEAKER_01:
Absolutely. And it's been really a pleasure to work with you and learn from you over the past couple of years as we've worked with some of the same groups of leaders. And Matt, one thing I really appreciate about your work is the emphasis on trust and building relationships. And I think that's something that's easy for us to ignore in situations when we have positional power, when we have a mandate to do evaluations. It's part of the job. It's required.
[03:19]
We're supposed to observe teachers. We're required to evaluate them. And it's easy to overlook that importance of trust. And we should say leading like a coach. Coach is an acronym. And the first C stands for create confidence through trust.
[03:35]
What role does trust play? And talk to us a little bit about how you build trust with teachers as you get into classrooms and talk with them about their practice.
[03:43] SPEAKER_00:
Trust is the foundation for all of this work. If you bypass those, that aspect of leadership, all of these other efforts are going to be um minimized or even not have zero impact i listed it first for that reason and i think until we have trust it's not going to lead us to having you know thoughtful conversations for example and in your book it's a lot of great questions a lot of great approaches to communicate with teachers about what they're trying to do and then helping us understand. But those conversations are underpinned by that trust. So how do I do it? One thing that I did right away in my principalship was to ask, in my current one when I came there, was to ask them, what's bothering you?
[04:38]
What issues have been kind of unresolved? And I just listened and my colleague, Luke Francois, who was the superintendent at the time, says, have a suitcase up and then teachers can put their concerns into that suitcase. And then I visibly close it up and said, OK, these are mine now. You don't have to worry about them. And I'm going to work on them. And so, you know, listening, just being kind of compassionate towards their concerns has been one that's been really helpful.
[05:08]
And then letting teachers know, hey, you you had a concern about this and here's how I dealt with it. And here's how things are better. So, so that's just one little example of how I built trust and it's ongoing. I'm always working on it. It's never going to go away and being very intentional about it. So coming into classrooms and just leaving little notes of just saying, Hey, I really appreciated this part of the lesson.
[05:29]
And here's where I saw it impacting kids. Just, I think teachers just want to be noticed and recognized. And I, that's, Those are ideas I pulled from your work, too. And I felt fortunate coming across your book a few years ago to really kind of add a missing puzzle piece to my work. So those are a few aspects of trust that I think have been helpful.
[05:50] SPEAKER_01:
Yeah. Talk to us more about the handwritten notes, because you include several examples of the actual scans of the handwritten notes and the comments that you've made to teachers. Why do you like the handwritten format? And what have teachers said about that?
[06:06] SPEAKER_00:
It's funny you mentioned that, Justin. I was just finishing up a round of observations. These are more formal, right? These are the traditional approaches. And we've been doing a rapid cycle feedback where I've come in several times, kind of like what Kim Marshall, I think, advocates for, instead of one big long one, several mini ones. And it was good.
[06:25]
It was a good experience. And I was just looking. I asked the teacher. I said, what do you like? about walks compared to this, you know, of coming in and I'm more on a computer and she's like, um, you know, these, these handwritten notes where I affirm what they're doing well. And I ask questions and it's very strengths oriented, not evaluative.
[06:47]
And she says, I have a folder and I put all your notes in my folder when I'm having a crummy day. And these last couple of years we've had several, um, I will go through those notes and I will read them and, um, just remember that I am a good teacher. And I just, I think that's, you know, I think that's the best reason is just to, you know, kind of coming back to building confidence through trust is continuing to build that confidence to remind them of all the good things they're doing. Often teachers will, it's old hat to them. You know, I've been doing it for 10 years and, you know, what's so special about that? And I feel like it's my role to come in and notice those things.
[07:25]
And so they keep doing them. But also to ask questions of like, you know, you did this here. So what are your thoughts about that same practice over there? So, for example, I was observing in another teacher's classroom math. But I noticed they had like a self-assessment tool for their writing block on the board. It was like the kids had to decide where they were at in the writing process.
[07:46]
I'm still writing or I am. I'm needing a peer revision. And I just say, hey, you know what? what are your thoughts are on using that same self-assessment practice, which is powerful, you know, in math and kind of helping teachers also connect the dots of their practice and helping them to generalize these really effective approaches. So there's a couple of reasons that, you know, I do the walks and, and then it's handwritten. I try to avoid technology other than scanning the notes into Evernote.
[08:16]
So we have it saved, but I like the tangibleness, I guess, of giving them the note. And it's almost like a gift, but it's kind of my cue too, to verbalize what I appreciated. Sometimes principals will leave classrooms and the teacher's like, okay, what are they thinking? You know, and then they're up at night, you know, worried about, you know, some kind of a poor evaluation. So I always try to leave too with some comments and let them know, you know, what I saw and what I appreciated.
[08:44] SPEAKER_01:
I love that because it's an immediate kind of reassurance that you're not secretly plotting against them. You're leaving them with something they can look at right away. It's something that they can physically hold on to. And of course, you can always take a picture of it with your phone or scan it or whatever you need to do. It's not like you have to go to the copier or do anything with technology. Very simple and straightforward.
[09:07]
And really what strikes me is that it's personally meaningful. People feel... scene, they appreciate the gesture of of a handwritten note, you know, even if it's not in beautiful calligraphy. I know my my handwriting will not win any awards, but but it means something to people.
[09:25]
It does.
[09:26] SPEAKER_00:
Yeah. Yeah. I would say especially these last two years, we've had such an influx of new approaches and tools and we've had to adapt and everyone's that's what I've heard a lot is I feel like a new teacher all over again. I've almost doubled down, I don't know if that's the appropriate word, but I've really reinforced just getting in there and noticing and naming and being present. I think sometimes people wonder, what is he doing or what is she doing in her office? So I think just being present and just, I'm here with you.
[09:58]
It's just, you're not alone. That's been really important. Even when we were totally virtual, I said, hey, let me know when you've got a Zoom going on or hey, show me your... Google Classroom or Seesaw and love to talk to you about it.
[10:11]
So we've made it work.
[10:14] SPEAKER_01:
Well, and it's interesting to think about, you know, things that teachers may have been doing for years and years and years, and yet another adult may never have seen them doing that. You know, we're alone with our students so much as educators that, you know, we say it's a collaborative profession. We work together. We, you know, we're all under the same roof, but it might be years later before another adult sees a teacher in action. I think so many teachers say, I don't even get my formal observations. No adults literally ever see what I'm doing.
[10:45]
So just being in classrooms, noticing what teachers are doing, being able to comment and affirm and talk about it a little bit means so much. And I wanted to ask about a particular term that you use in the book, collaborative independence. Talk to us a little bit about collaborative independence and what that means.
[11:07] SPEAKER_00:
I lifted that from a book by Peter Johnston and several teachers in Wisconsin. Actually, that's where I'm from. And I've also heard it like independent and interdependent. What it basically means is we have that confidence, that independence, but we're not in isolation. We are supported by a community. to be independent in the classroom.
[11:35]
It's almost a paradox, right? Trying to think of a good example of what that might look like. I think just one is me coming into classrooms, I'm approaching it from a partnership standpoint, not from I'm here to, as I've said before, I'm not here to criticize you or necessarily we have these positions of power, as you said before. And what I'm trying to do, I guess, is to blur those lines a little bit. The walks are really important because they lead to the conversation. So when I give the teacher the notes, that is kind of the entry point into a collaborative conversation.
[12:17]
And, you know, that example I listed before of, you know, the teacher was teaching math and then we were talking about how might you bring in you know, some self-assessment tools from writing. And it's like, it's like evaluations and levels and scoring evidence and rubrics. They all kind of fade away, you know, because we are just having a conversation. We're just talking about practice and that's, and that's a lot of fun for me. And it's, you know, I think the teachers appreciate it too. And, you know, their example too, I listed before where I, I asked the teacher, you know, what did you, how do you compare walks with, you know, these many observations?
[12:56]
And we were talking and I finally said, oh, I've got to score you now. She's like, oh, yeah, you do. And it was kind of a little bit of a letdown because I don't know how you quantify some of these practices. I don't. I just we've got a calibration meeting again for, you know, we have to do it every six months to to for the integrity, I guess, of the evaluation system and I don't know if it's a three or a four. I mean, it was good, you know, and it's, it's, we focused on some things she wants to work on and she improved.
[13:31]
And I almost just feel like sometimes we create things in education that can take us a few steps back. You know, we've got really good things going on. Even the rubrics aren't, I don't have problems with rubrics. It's the, you know, it's, you know, once teachers are effective, really just about growth and i i don't have anyone in my building who's on a plan of improvement um so i don't know i i can see the rubrics i guess and i'm bird walking here a little bit but i can see the rubrics being helpful for a teacher who is on a plan of improvement i think we want to be very specific about where they need to improve but buildings get to a point as a culture where you've got some good things going and you really just want to just keep talking so uh yeah in a roundabout way um you know it takes years i have found as a principal but that collaborative independence comes about through getting into classrooms and then i know you know you are great at um conveying ideas and practice for practices for conversation around the practice
[14:38] SPEAKER_01:
One interesting kind of difference between our books and the approaches that we describe in them, my approach to classroom walkthroughs is kind of intentionally generic and often proceeds without any kind of purposeful focus to be kind of an open-ended learning experience. You talk in your book, the letter O stands for organize around a priority. Talk to us a little bit about that. How do you choose a priority? What do you do once you've chosen that priority and so on?
[15:08] SPEAKER_00:
We look at data, student data, and what is the need for the kids. We just did a data retreat a couple months ago where we're seeing literacy continues to be an area of focus, especially around background knowledge. And we think maybe some skill development, at least some consistency curriculum-wise. And so we're heading toward that. And I would say our books are pretty closely aligned in that you advocate heavily for a framework, right? And that's really what a priority is.
[15:37]
eventually breaks down into, it's not just focus on literacy, it's focus on these practices that are likely to lead to strong literacy outcomes for kids. So discussion is one element of our framework. Self-directed learners, authenticity, you know, that's our framework. And so that gives me a lens to focus on without being too rigid in the classroom so that I'm not just coming in without anything. that's one reason I have found talking with principals is one reason they don't want to go in is when you get down to it is they don't, they don't know what to do. Um, so that framework can give you some point of focus.
[16:20]
And in the last couple of years, again, I don't want to date ourselves here, but with the pandemic, it's been really tough for professional development, right? Um, So that's one thing I struggled with a little bit with my walks is trying to prioritize what am I going to look for other than making sure the teachers show up every day and aren't burned out. And, you know, hopefully we're getting kind of right, right in the ship here a little bit. But that professional development, that priority gives the leader a A way to hone in on improvement. So we might have a professional development session, you know, two weeks ago. And now I'm coming into classrooms.
[16:59]
Let's say that session's on discussion, right? And facilitating good conversations with kids around what they're reading and writing. Now I'm coming in. and I'm focusing on discussion, you know, and then we're having a conversation and that's, that's when learning really accelerates for teachers is that follow up. And we know that coaching can, can really help with that.
[17:21] SPEAKER_01:
I love your, again, dual emphasis on literacy and instructional leadership and your, your focus there. I know you have an intro in the book or a forward written by Reggie Routman, the, the noted literacy expert. And that's definitely worth mentioning. everyone checking out to see what she says about the book. But I wanted to zoom into one example that you share about classroom libraries and you recount a conversation with a teacher about how her classroom library was organized and you refer explicitly to some of the commitments that you made as a school about like how we would approach classroom libraries. And you actually collected some data on people's feelings toward those commitments.
[18:04]
Tell us a little bit about that situation and the conversation with the teacher.
[18:08] SPEAKER_00:
Part of our initial literacy initiative was the Reading Writing Connection. And so we pulled in Regie's work, Regie Rotman's work. She has some wonderful video series on her website, regierotman.org on watching teachers teach and then just having conversation and examining their beliefs and And so we examined our beliefs about literacy. And one of them was that was not there was, you know, getting the kids involved in creating and organizing the classroom library. And I was not seeing in every classroom that happening.
[18:42]
You know, teachers had them kind of Pinterest perfect, I guess is the way I would call it. Looks great, you know, but there really isn't that kids kind of thumbprint on fingerprint on the on the process. And kids don't know where all the books are and, you know, they can't own it. So we just listed five statements as a leadership team. And we one of them was where we're going to include kids in the process of organizing the library classroom libraries. And so then we did a one to five consensus activity.
[19:18]
Five is like, I will champion this cause. I believe in this 100%. One is I don't want anything to do with it, you know, and then there's everything in between. And the one aspect of classroom libraries of the five commitments, the one that was the lowest, but we still reached consensus on was kids involved in it. So, okay. Fast forward a year and I'm in a classroom and again, it's, they've kind of gone back to that.
[19:43]
And so I just, instead of getting on them about it or, looking at like, oh, this is, they're being insubordinate. I just asked a question like, what's been challenging for you about classroom libraries? I just got curious instead of, I guess, getting on my high horse about it. And she just was really honest. She said, you know what? The kids had a tough time with it and it's a lot of time to do it.
[20:07]
And I just, I don't know if it's worth it. And I said, you know, I appreciate that. I think that's fair. I guess I would have that concern too. And seeing it from her perspective, versus I need to get my agenda accomplished. And then I just said, well, what could you do to help kids be more involved in it?
[20:28]
And she's like, well, we could do part of it, I guess. We could do this part of the classroom library. I said, okay. And she's like, well, now I feel bad because I should have done this at the beginning of the year, and the kid's going to want to do it. And I said, why don't you just ask them? I mean, just how would they want to do it?
[20:47]
So then I came back probably a month later to follow up and it had gone much better. That could have gone south, right? It could have been a battle of wills and I can be on the side of, these are our collective commitments and we're not trying to develop, again, that collaborative independence, that understanding of why teachers are choosing to do what they're doing. It takes longer. It's a little more messy, but it's respectful and it's kind of getting to the root of their beliefs and why they're doing or not doing something. And that's where change takes place.
[21:25]
It's not in the commitments are great, but it's the underlying beliefs of of wanting to do it and committing to it that makes the difference.
[21:35] SPEAKER_01:
And it strikes me that there's always a reason, right? Whenever we have feedback for a teacher, we think, oh, you should have done it this way. You should have done something else. It's not as if they didn't think of that. There's a reason. And it sounds like in this case, The teacher wanted the library to be good enough, right?
[21:51]
They wanted it to be a certain way. They maybe had a little bit of trouble relinquishing that aspect of control because they wanted it to be good. It wasn't because they didn't care about the collective commitment. It wasn't that they weren't listening during the professional development. There were reasons. And one thing that really strikes me about your approach is that you're willing to engage with those reasons, right?
[22:12]
And not just dismiss them.
[22:13] SPEAKER_00:
Yeah. And it's the tools, I think, again, the coaching tools, paraphrasing and posing questions and pausing just to give them time to think and not always feeling like we have to have a response. And I recall one teacher just saying, I don't want to do it. And I just, okay, I just wasn't sure what to say. And I just walked out of the room. And I think that kind of unsettled this teacher a little bit, you know, because they didn't respond.
[22:40]
And But came back a couple of months later and they were doing it on their terms. And they just said, you know, I thought about it and here's what I'm going to do. And then they did it as well as anyone in the building. So I think that's another lesson I learned is to Our timeline might not be the same as the school's timeline. You know, we make these very elaborate professional development plans and school goals. And we said, by May, we're going to accomplish this.
[23:12]
And I think just as we expect our teachers to be responsive to our kids, I think we have to be responsive to our teachers and within reason, right? I mean, if they're just, if there's flat out refusal and there's no change, then that that's a different story, but that's another book, right? That's, you know, that's more noncompliance. And, and then we're, you know, like I said, we're on a plan of improvement at that point, but,
[23:38] SPEAKER_01:
Yeah. And you had the, you know, the forethought in the moment to not see everything that way, right? To not see, oh, you didn't do it the way I said, therefore it's noncompliance. You know, you listened, you kind of got into the real reasons why the teacher had not made that change and, you know, what she was kind of struggling to let go of in terms of control. And I mean, I think that's how you change practice, right? Is you actually get at the you know, the real issue, not just fall back on positional power and say, hey, we said we're going to do this and I'm telling you as your boss, you got to do it.
[24:09]
You know, that probably would have, quote unquote, worked. But then you'd be in a different place with the teacher.
[24:16] SPEAKER_00:
And it would have worked as long as I keep coming in the classroom. You know, let's say I leave in two years or something and then, oh, that's gone. You know, I can Because I never really believed in it. And the other thing too, I think to that is sometimes I've been just 100% wrong on my assumptions. Like I'll think I'm not, we're not doing something. And I was just in a classroom and the library was looking pretty traditional.
[24:39]
Like you'd see in a public library, all the spines out, nothing really displayed. And my assumption was, oh, they didn't involve the students in the classroom library. But I withheld my judgment. I just, again, noticed what they were doing well and then asked the question. And it was just simply, how's the classroom library going for you this year? And, you know, no judgment, just I'm curious.
[25:01]
And it's like, oh, great. I asked the kids how they wanted the library. And usually in elementary classroom libraries, you see tubs. You see the kids writing on it. And this is the historical fiction tub. This is the my weird school tub, you know.
[25:15]
it's always fun to see how they do it and this teacher's like nope they didn't want any tubs they wanted them all in rows because there's a lot of series books in this grade level so they wanted the book series because they can see the numbers in the spines and i never thought of that and i just said oh that makes a lot of sense you know thank you for sharing that with me and once again a conversation that could have really gone south if i had not approached it with curiosity instead of certainty that I'm right or my conception of what a classroom library should look like was different than what the kids, you know, had produced.
[25:54] SPEAKER_01:
Yeah. And you're getting right into that tension there between the different factors that the teacher had to balance, you know, because it was one of your commitments. One of your five commitments was to have students involved in how the library was organized. And the students decided to make it look different than what you thought they were supposed to or what one of the other kind of commitments suggested. And that, you know, the teacher has to deal with that tension. And, you know, typically teachers have to make us happy as instructional leaders with their decisions.
[26:22]
And that's a lot easier to do if we're listening, if we're, you know, if we're open to that conversation. Talk to us just briefly, if you could, about that survey. So you gave teachers a Google survey around those five commitments. What came out of that survey as far as student involvement in the classroom libraries? And what did you do with that?
[26:44] SPEAKER_00:
Yeah, the other elements of the class, there were five commitments we developed as a leadership team. So it wasn't just me coming in, you know, like, you know, the Ten Commandments or something, and just, you know, written in stone. It's just like, here's some language we can work with. And we kind of molded it together, and we still adapted it, but they were just things like, we want diversity in our classroom libraries. We want, I'm just trying to think back to...
[27:12]
to some of the statements, but they're just very practical and they just make sense. And then the one, the lone one was, you know, we will co-organize the classroom libraries with the kids. So it was a scale of one to five. It was a, again, it was five. I'm totally committed and one it's, I don't want anything to do with it. And then the teachers responded.
[27:35]
What was important, and I didn't mention before, though, was I would show the results to the teachers, and then we would just have a conversation as a whole group, as a staff. And so I put them in groups and actually vertical teams. um it kind of makes it up to get perspectives you know this is what a first grade teacher thinks about classroom libraries and this is what a fifth grade teacher thinks about classroom libraries so again that collaborative independence of building perspective on how it can look but giving teachers time to talk about what we're doing clarifies any misconceptions it's also is kind of a group accountability approach Um, if everyone kind of, everyone sees, yeah, we're doing this and it's not just, um, happening through email, you know, um, you know, just a short communication, but we're really committed to it.
[28:33]
Um, it means more, um, once we had those commitments, a thing that I did was I started going into classrooms. again my instructional walks were focused on classroom libraries it was beginning of the year so i was actually taking pictures of of what it looked like and what it sounded like even video and then at the next staff meeting i showed teachers some of those pictures of how the different classrooms were approaching this so within those commitments but teachers were doing it in different ways like my daughter was in third grade at the time and They had tons of books and they were all on the floor. It looked like a tornado had gone through. But they were just having a blast. And it took them two days to organize everything. But man, I mean, the kids knew where every book was at.
[29:23]
Later in the year, they... They could help each other find books. It was truly a community. And so I would revisit that throughout the year, too, in my newsletter or in staff meetings, recognizing some of those aspects.
[29:37]
They just keep it on the forefront and bringing it back, I guess, to the bigger reason why we're doing that. We're not giving up control of the classroom library because not just because it's an effective practice, but because we're building readers. And I think we get lost and forget about these bigger goals is can a kid navigate any kind of library in their future? Can they go to Barnes and Noble and find the books they want? And can they...
[30:11]
get out of maybe a rut they're reading Dog Man or Captain Underpants, which are great, you know, beginning readers, but sometimes kids can get stuck in ruts. And so do they have strategies and tools that they've learned from their peers and how to find that next book that may be more complex text to progress in their own reading life?
[30:31] SPEAKER_01:
So I know we're probably not gonna have time to talk about all five elements of the coach acronym, but they're create confidence through trust, organize around a priority, affirm promising practices, which you and I have talked about quite a bit in the past. I love that one. Communicate feedback and help teachers become leaders and learners. And I wanted to ask, not about those individual elements, but about the idea of being a coach. You have a little bit of an athletic director and coaching background. What do you see as some of the similarities and differences between coaching in the athletics world and our work as instructional leaders and that type of coaching?
[31:07] SPEAKER_00:
I thought I was going to be, when I came into education, I thought I was going to teach middle school mathematics and be a basketball and baseball coach. And that was kind of my goal. And then I got into some of the complexities of education and really captured my interest. I'd say the similarities are, I think what coaching and sports does very well is the authenticity of the experience. They're always going to some kind of an event or a performance. And It's a celebration and, you know, very high expectations.
[31:47]
And we don't always see that in education. We don't always see the performance that we can support through coaching. You know, we don't make that very tangible. I think if you're a school like, you know, I think like your wife does with project-based learning and, you know, developing that kind of curriculum, you'll see more of that.
[32:08]
But that's where I think we can learn from sports is just that feedback on skills that's going towards something important to kids, that's relevant to kids. I would say where the comparisons don't always align is, and no offense to sports, and I was an athlete and I was, you know, I love sports, but I would argue that teaching and leading in schools is more complex and more difficult because it's just, it is so complex. Every reader, for example, is different. It's not like there's this mountain top you climb to be a reader. Everyone's reading lives will look a little different, you know, as they progress through school and in life. So it's responding to each kid's needs and interests and, I guess, aptitudes, you know, current capacities.
[33:00]
that really we need teachers really benefit from coaching support in a different way and in a way that's respectful and valid and redeeming. It's not just, you know,
[33:18]
It's not just skill oriented. I think you can get into some of that, you know, if the teachers are trusting you and agreeable to it, you can look at like, what level of questions are they asking? You know, is it open or closed? And how many questions were open versus closed? You can get into some of that skill stuff, but that comes much later when you've got that trust established. Or that's just kind of implied with, you know, sports coaching.
[33:40]
It's a little more technical.
[33:42] SPEAKER_01:
Well, Matt, very excited to see the book become available. Check it out, Leading Like a Coach, Five Strategies for Supporting Teaching and Learning. And Matt, if people want to learn more about your work, follow you, where can they get access to more of your writing and follow you online?
[33:59] SPEAKER_00:
I'm on Twitter at readbyexample. And then my newsletter is readbyexample.substack.com. And those will be the two best places to reach out to me. The book's available on Amazon and through Corwin.
[34:14] SPEAKER_01:
So yeah, check it out. Let me know what you think. Well, Matt, thanks so much for joining me again on Principal Center Radio. It's been a pleasure as always. Thanks, Justin.
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