The Advice Trap: Be Humble, Stay Curious & Change the Way You Lead Forever

[00:01] Announcer:

Welcome to Principal Center Radio, helping you build capacity for instructional leadership. Here's your host, Director of the Principal Center, Dr. Justin Bader. Welcome everyone to Principal Center Radio.

[00:13] SPEAKER_00:

I'm your host, Justin Bader, and I'm honored to be joined today by Michael Bungay-Stanier. best-selling author and Rhodes Scholar who helps people stay curious a bit longer and rush to action and advice giving a little more slowly. His work helps organizations strengthen leadership and culture by giving busy managers and leaders the tools to coach in a way that works. And we're here today to talk about Michael's book, The Advice Trap. Be humble, stay curious, and change the way you lead forever.

[00:43] Announcer:

And now, our feature presentation.

[00:46] SPEAKER_00:

Michael, welcome to Principal Center Radio.

[00:48] SPEAKER_01:

Justin, thank you. You know, I have, my brother was a principal in a primary school in Australia, and two of my grandparents were principals, so people who are teachers and administrators in education, such a great audience, so I'm thrilled to be here.

[01:02] SPEAKER_00:

Well, I'm excited to speak with you, you know, with your vast experience in the corporate world, helping leaders and managers communicate, lead effectively and avoid falling into the advice trap. I think there's a lot there for us as leaders. So just to kick things off, what is the advice trap and why is it so easy for us to fall into it as leaders?

[01:24] SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Well, let me, I'm going to rewind a second and set up some context. So about five years ago, I wrote a book called The Coaching Habit. And that book is the one that kind of caught fire and sold almost a million copies. And really it's got a goal to help make coaching less weird, more practical, more everyday to normal people. Because sometimes coaching and being more coach-like can feel like I got to be a, HR person or a people person.

[01:50]

And in the book, it says, look, here are seven good questions. And with these seven questions, you can go a long way to be a more effective leader, manager, principal, teacher, human being. What I found, Justin, is that there are some people who read the book, got the seven questions, started practicing in it, and it's made a real difference to the way that they show up and the relationships they have and the effectiveness they are in those relationships. And then there are other people who were like, you know what? I mean, there's some people who read the book and went, I hate this book. So they're a lost cause.

[02:20]

I can't do anything about that. But there are people in the middle who are like, I read the book. I like it. I still can't change my behavior. And the advice trap grew out of that quest, which is like, how do you help people change their behavior when they know they want to stay curious a little bit longer, but they find it a challenge. They find it difficult.

[02:40]

And the advice trap kind of frames it up, which is to say, look, there are three reasons why your advice or you having advice giving as your default behavior, which is what most of us have, isn't that great. And the three reasons of this, here are the headlines. Number one, you're probably solving the wrong problem because you can get seduced into thinking that the first challenge that's presented is the real challenge. And in fact, it's often just their best guess or the first thing that comes to mind or whatever it might be. So the first challenge is almost never the real challenge. But secondly, even if you've got the right challenge, you really know that this is the hard nut that needs to be cracked.

[03:19]

Second issue is your advice actually isn't good as you think it is. And for all of you who are listening in who know all about cognitive biases, which is probably all of you, you know that our brains are just wired to make us think we're smarter and better and more accurate than we actually are. I mean, we all think we're above average drivers and we all think we're above average advice givers as well. But Justin, even if...

[03:44]

In an imaginary perfect world, not only do you know what problem you're meant to be solving, but you have a sterling, golden nugget, awesome piece of advice that is just breathtakingly fantastic. The third trap that's part of the advice trap is that it just might not be the right act of leadership because your job, I think, as a principal and an administrator and a superintendent in the world of education is to say, how do I make the people around me better? Not just how do I solve the problems, but how do I grow the capacity and the confidence and the autonomy and the self-sufficiency of those around me so that they are better able to take on more and have more impact in the work that they're doing. And sometimes even if you know the problem and you know the answer, the better thing to do is to ask the question to help them figure this stuff out themselves.

[04:36] SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely. I want to make sure we circle back to each of those points, but just one immediate application for me thinking about the work that we do as school leaders in attempting to help teachers improve, you know, giving teachers feedback. Often we can think of something that would have made the lesson better if the teacher had made a different decision. We might have expertise in that area and be able to identify something that could have been done differently. The only problem is the lesson is over, right? It's not going to happen again for a year.

[05:05]

with a different group of students. And if we're trying to decide whether to give a postmortem on the lesson or actually say something to help the teacher improve, often it's easier to give a postmortem because it showcases our expertise, but it doesn't necessarily help the teacher improve. Do you see that in the business world as well?

[05:24] SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely. you've nailed something that's actually quite subtle and nuanced, which is why am I giving this advice? And sometimes it's like, this proves the value I am adding to this conversation. Nobody can fault me if this doesn't get sorted out because I've done my bit. Look how valuable I am. Look how important I am.

[05:45]

And there is a way that you can help that learning happen. But I'm not sure how you do it. If I'm sitting there with a teacher for a debrief after a lesson, I'm like, look, that was great. There are some things I thought you did really well. There's one or two things that I might have done differently. But let me ask you, what do you think went really well in that lesson?

[06:05]

And they're like, this, this, and this. And you're like, exactly. I loved all of that. And you're like, and if there was one or two things where you're like, this is where I want to do differently next year. This is how I want to focus differently in my next lesson in terms of principles. What would that be?

[06:17]

Well, maybe this. And you're like, yeah, I saw that. And then maybe this. And you're like, yeah, perhaps. And then you go, well, I've got one other thing that might be helpful. This.

[06:26]

And now you've set it up where they figure it out. They talk about the challenge. half the time you don't even need to give them your feedback because they already know it. All you giving feedback does is create resistance to the feedback. Whereas if you create the space for them to hear themselves and be more able to receive what you have to give them, then you're much more likely to hear have the outcome that you both want, which is for this teacher to get better.

[06:53] SPEAKER_00:

So well said. And I think you've highlighted the importance, something that I think we often overlook, because these processes and roles are so preordained for us. They're so pre-described. I play the role of giving the feedback. The teacher plays the role of receiving the feedback and promising to do better in that area. After reflecting on us, there's this kind of script that we follow.

[07:13]

I think the missing piece in a lot of these conversations is just the awareness of the incentives that we each have. As an administrator, I want to say something that makes me look smart and that seems helpful. As a teacher, you want to defend your own practice and look competent, but also look like you're open to feedback and open to growth.

[07:31] SPEAKER_01:

So you're right. Sometimes the challenge is that we have these preordained roles, which is like, okay, let the dance commence. You know, here we go. The music started. I'm going to start my feedback giving. They're going to start their feedback receiving, and we're going to pretend that this is a useful interaction.

[07:46]

And of course, sometimes it really is useful. But sometimes you're like, hey, why don't we change the rules? And I find just talking about the rules by which we're operating a really helpful way to understand how this is going to work. So look, Justin, I might come to you and go, hey, look, thanks for letting me listen on your lesson. And I want to give you feedback. Now, look, I know in the past when this has been done, you might have had somebody like me just launch into the feedback.

[08:12]

I've got one or two things I definitely want to share with you. But before you hear from me, look, there's just a ton of research that says it's much more useful just to have a moment to reflect on your own. So let me ask you, what worked well? What would you do differently? And now you just tell them what's going to happen so you don't freak them out when you start doing things differently. You know, that question, that statement around incentives is so helpful to understand, which is what are we all defending here?

[08:41]

And we're defending the status quo and we're defending our ego and we're defending the power relationship. All of those are true. One of the things that is most brilliant about coaching, at least for me, this is why I get super excited about it being a more universal skill, is that it is a way of disrupting power. I know that sounds kind of grandiose, but the power relationship between an administrator and a teacher is administrator comes in, they've got more training, more years of experience, more gray hairs, shinier shoes, I don't know, they've got status. And the teacher is like, and I'm here to learn, I'm here to sit at your feet. And so there is a implicit power structure, which is the administrator is smarter and wiser and knows best here.

[09:27]

Teacher's there to learn. And when you ask a question, when you're being more coach-like, I don't think you even need to call yourself a coach, just be curious a little bit longer, part of what you do is you shift power because you say to the teacher, sure, I could tell you what I think, but I think what I'm making primary, what I'm centering here in the conversation is what you think, what your own awareness is, and that not only gives them autonomy and rank, which is kind of part of what helps people engage on a kind of neurological level. But you're also actually cunningly making sure that your advice is actually more valuable. Because if you say to them, hey, Justin, tell me what you did well. Now tell me one or two things that you'd like to do differently in that lesson.

[10:20]

And they go, well, here are the two things. And you're like in your mind going, oh, yeah, those are the first two things I would have mentioned. Brilliant. Now you don't need to mention them. You just get to go immediately to your third point, which is like, yeah, I totally agree with those first two. And if I was going to add one other final thing, it would be this.

[10:38]

So your advice lands more cleanly. It gets heard more likely. And it's often the advice or the guidance or the feedback that is most valuable because it's a thing they couldn't figure out for themselves.

[10:51] SPEAKER_00:

So it's almost like you can reprioritize your feedback because you're giving the chance to the other person to identify their own insights first.

[11:01] SPEAKER_01:

Right. So they feel more empowered. You work less hard. The bit of work you do has more impact because it's more targeted and more specific and less redundant. There's not a single way that we don't win. other than discomfort of breaking a familiar pattern, which is no small thing, but that's what you're being asked to do.

[11:23] SPEAKER_00:

Let's talk about that aspect of it, because I think that's something that we need to not underestimate in, as you said, changing our own behavior. We're facing something that you call the advice monster. What is that impulse within us, and why is it so hard to fight?

[11:37] SPEAKER_01:

Well, I use it as a metaphor just to recognize that feeling we all get when somebody starts talking. And after about five seconds, you just suddenly notice that you stop listening because you're like, I'm just waiting for you to shut up so I can leap in and just give you the answer. And that's for me when the advice monster has taken control. The advice monster has the wheels in their hands. And I think there are actually three different advice monsters or maybe three different personas of the same advice monster. There's tell it, there's save it, and there's control it.

[12:09]

And it's really helpful for you to understand which of the advice monsters kind of is most drives you. Tell it has convinced you that the way you add value is to have all the answers, have all the answers to all the things all the time. If you don't, have all those answers to all the things all the time, you are failing as an administrator and as a principal, and you're letting everybody around you down. Now, of course, I'm saying it in a way where you recognize how ridiculous it is to think that you could possibly have all the answers to all the things. That's ridiculous. It's impossible.

[12:43]

Then there's save it. Save it has convinced you that the way you add value is you make sure that nobody ever struggles or stumbles or fails or finds it difficult or kind of bumps up against something. Your job is to rescue everybody all the time. That can make us feel really good in the short term. Look at me. Look how noble I am.

[13:02]

Look how self-sacrificing I am in terms of making sure everybody's okay. But of course, it's exhausting and frustrating for you. And you can't save everybody. Not only that, you don't want to save everybody because it's in their mistakes and in their struggles that the learning happens. You don't want people to drown, but you want people to learn. And that's when you bump into the edge of your own competence.

[13:25]

And then the third advice monster is control it. And control it's convinced you that the way you win is you stay in control at all times. You manage the process from start through the middle to the finish. You don't let any kind of pesky external influences come in. You don't give up control. You don't empower other people, but you keep your fingers, your hands on the wheel the whole way through.

[13:48]

And of course, it's impossible to keep control over everything. It's an exhausting experience that will just break you. But also, it disallows the serendipity of the future and it disallows empowerment and engagement of all the other brilliant people that you're working with. So with all of these three advice monsters, Justin, there's a way of saying, look, there is a short term ego driven win that you might get from the advice monster acting out. That's kind of why you give advice because you get that short term win. But what you're seeing in the advice monsters is the price being paid by you and by others, by you perpetuating and continuing on this behavior.

[14:28] SPEAKER_00:

It strikes me, Michael, that one of our challenges in organizational leadership positions is that we have permission to do this, right? We have permission to make ourselves look smart. We have the authority to do that, to make other people do what we say. But you say right in the subtitle of the book that we need to be humble and stay curious. What role does that curiosity and that humility play in actually getting the kind of growth that we want to see and the kind of changes in our own behavior?

[14:56] SPEAKER_01:

It's a really astute question. I mean, I think curiosity is a bit of a leadership superpower. It's a bit underestimated. And I think when you're curious, embodies three additional leadership attributes in you. Kind of curiosity drives to humility. which is a bit of a greater sense of who you are and what's going on in the world and your strengths and your weaknesses as a leader and as a human.

[15:23]

Empathy, which is a better understanding of who's on the other side of the table from you, what they're really going through. When you're in advice-giving mode, you're not actually being that empathetic. You're kind of going, it's about me. And also mindfulness, meaning that in the broader sense of I've got a better reading of reality. So you just become smarter by staying curious because you get a better sense of you, of them, and of us, of the world around that. And that allows you to understand nuance, invite others in, and get a better reading on reality.

[15:55]

So you're more likely to make smarter decisions from there. But you're absolutely right, is that what you're fighting is authority, which is your own authority. Because people are like, they're the principal. My job is to keep training him or her to give me the answers because honestly, it just makes my life easier. So you get into this collusion where you're like, look, it's easier for you if I tell you the answers and it's easier for me if I tell you the answers in the short term. But in the long term, we all lose because you don't become empowered and encouraged to become all you can be, to use that phrase.

[16:34]

And in the same way, you're spending your life fixing other people rather than focused on the work that really matters to you.

[16:40] SPEAKER_00:

Very well said. I think sometimes we get frustrated that people don't listen to us. They don't take our advice. But at the same time, I don't want a staff full of people who need my advice all the time. Because as you said at the beginning, it's probably not all that good. It's probably not as good as I think it is.

[16:56] SPEAKER_01:

Exactly. What's that William film director or film mogul from the 30s who goes, I don't want yes men around me, even if it costs them their job. And it's the same sort of paradox, which is like, look, I don't want you to take my advice. But honestly, in this moment, just take my advice, damn it. And that's the tension. That is the deepest barrier in some ways to leading with curiosity and being more coach-like is When you empower somebody, it means giving up some of your power and your control and your authority.

[17:29]

And you win. There's a bigger game that you win from that, but you can see why there'd be resistance in the short term.

[17:35] SPEAKER_00:

Because you end up having to do less of that kind of fixing and problem solving for people because you have people who have built that capacity in themselves.

[17:44] SPEAKER_01:

If everybody who's listened to this thinks back and go, think of the person who had your back, trusted you, and gave you responsibility that felt entirely appropriate and plus 10% more than you're there. And you think of them and you go, that's the moment I grew. That's when I felt like I had to leap in who I was as a person and as a teacher and as an administrator. And what if you could be that person or those around you now?

[18:14] SPEAKER_00:

So the book is The Advice Trap. Be humble, stay curious, and change the way you lead forever. Michael, if people want to learn more about your work, learn about your previous books, or get in touch with you online, where's the best place for them to go and find you?

[18:27] SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, thanks for asking. So mbs.works is my website. And there's a nice freebie there. There's something called The Year of Living Brilliantly. And it's a year of brilliant teachers offering a two to six minute video, one teacher, one video per week.

[18:42]

And if people want to jump in and grab hold of that, we'd love to have you there. There's a really lovely, thriving community. And yeah, books, you know, all the places you normally find a book.

[18:51] SPEAKER_00:

Well, Michael, thank you so much for joining me on Principal Center Radio. It's been a pleasure. Justin, my turn. Thank you for having me.

[18:56] Announcer:

Thanks for listening to Principal Center Radio. For more great episodes, subscribe on our website at principalcenter.com slash radio.