[00:01] SPEAKER_01:
Welcome to Principal Center Radio, bringing you the best in professional practice.
[00:06] Announcer:
Here's your host, director of the Principal Center and champion of high performance instructional leadership, Justin Bader. Welcome everyone to Principal Center Radio.
[00:15] SPEAKER_02:
I'm your host, Justin Bader, and I'm honored to be joined today by PJ Capozzi. PJ is a speaker, author, superintendent, and former high school principal in Illinois, and he's the author of numerous articles and three books, including Making Evaluation Meaningful, Transforming the Conversation to Transform Schools.
[00:35] Announcer:
And now, our feature presentation.
[00:38] SPEAKER_02:
Dr. Capozzi, welcome to Principal Center Radio.
[00:40] SPEAKER_00:
Thank you very much, Justin. Been a fan of your work for some time.
[00:42] SPEAKER_02:
Well, thanks. And I know there's a great deal of research done on teacher evaluation. There are a lot of books on teacher evaluation. So I wanted to ask, what challenges or problems did you see in our profession that prompted you to write this book about making evaluation meaningful?
[00:57] SPEAKER_00:
From my mindset, I look at everything in processes and systems. And the processes, systems, and frameworks set up for evaluation are are all pretty solid and pretty fundamentally sound. The issue is that when you add the human element to it, I just did not see evaluation being meaningful in terms of leading to teacher growth, which ultimately would lead to a better product for students. And so that was my assumption. And so as I continued to kind of travel around and speak and work with different districts, that was kind of a question that I'd always work in, whether I was talking about evaluation or not. When I get a subgroup of teachers, I'd say, you know, what's the last time you've had an evaluation that's really helped you grow?
[01:34]
And then I'd say the same thing to principals and say, how much time are you spending on evaluation? And they, you know, 100 hours, 200 hours a year. Do you really think you're making a difference on your school? Are you improving your school through the evaluation process? The answer is always no. And so there's this disconnect between a pretty organized system and process with generally popularized frameworks, either from Marzano or Danielson, which I support and endorse both of them.
[01:57]
And then the actual product not leading to teacher growth. And so my attempt at writing this book is to help the human element of it for practitioners to read, grow within their practice so that they can not only change their paradigm into how they look at evaluation, but change some practical tips and techniques so that they can improve and better serve the teachers. that they're working with.
[02:17] SPEAKER_02:
And what would you say to people who say, well, it's okay if evaluation doesn't really help teachers grow because evaluation is really about identifying and removing people who are not performing the way they need to. What's your view of evaluation as far as that growth aspect? What are your hopes for the process for teachers who don't need to be fired but just need to grow?
[02:36] SPEAKER_00:
So I would say that when we look at the data and say that when we look at the majority of states that 95 plus percent of teachers are rated proficient or above. And so when we look at that, our reality is the fact that we are not using evaluation as a firing strategy or tool. And I'm not endorsing that at all, but that's just fundamentally not how it's being used. And so if we are not using it that way, then what else could it be about other than a big, cumbersome hoop to jump through that, again, is stressful to teachers, time intensive for principals and damning to the climate of a building? So if that's our reality, then we have to change it, right? So systems are perfectly designed to produce the results they're getting.
[03:12]
And so if the results our evaluation system are getting is that we're not eliminating very many teachers, if at all, and we are not growing teachers, then all we are doing is going through a big exercise that is, again, very resource intensive in terms of time, energy, stress, and all of that equals manpower, diminished resources. So even from an economic resource perspective, It's not working for schools. So how do we fundamentally reevaluate how we examine the process from a very human element to change it so that we can ultimately better serve those people who we are serving? So my perspective is as principals, we're serving our teachers and teachers, we're serving our kids. So from that service mindset, we've got to do a better job.
[03:54] SPEAKER_02:
Well, let's talk more about that culture aspect because it's easy to ignore the cultural impact of evaluations because there's something that we've always had to do. So we don't think of them as a culture-shaping tool or act. We just think of them as a routine. What do you see as some of the impacts that evaluation has on the culture of the school?
[04:13] SPEAKER_00:
I dive right into this at the start of the book. As a principal— My philosophy of leadership when I was hired as a 27-year-old high school principal was that I could outwork or outread anyone. And so I was just going to implement things and I was going to do things the right way and we're going to do research-based practices. And so within my first handful of years as a high school principal, we had 20% turnover in staff largely using the evaluation tool as a weapon. So I am not proud of that. It took me years to rebuild the culture of my building.
[04:38]
And so that's really the perspective that I come at this from is that When evaluation is used wrong, even if you are weeding out the weaker teachers, if it's used as a weapon and it's used as a framework that simply explains and quantifies someone's value to the organization, then ultimately the culture of the building is going to suffer. And true school improvement can't happen with a really toxic culture. And so the way that I implemented it as a principal is I caused a toxic culture. So it took me literally years to rebuild it. And so that's the framework that I operate and wrote this book under, was that even those people that are really comfortable with the tool and really even can provide sound feedback in terms of improving curriculum, instruction, and pedagogy, if you're doing so in a way that's damaging your culture, you're really cutting off your nose to spite your face. And so there has to be a blend of having the chops to provide true C&I support, advice, feedback, to really develop someone's pedagogy, but to doing so in a way that promotes a healthy school culture that's about continuous improvement cycles,
[05:36]
as opposed to an assessment of value to the organization.
[05:39] SPEAKER_02:
Well, I'm interested in how you got into those details of curriculum and instruction as a high school principal, because I think a lot of the time our attitude at the secondary level, or our attitude for those of us who went from secondary to elementary, whenever we have an expertise gap, we haven't personally taught all of the subjects that we're evaluating. And I know we probably have some listeners who have taught all of the subjects that they evaluate if you've moved around to different grade levels, but I don't know very many people who have. And I think the reality is that often we're evaluating people who are doing work that we have never personally done. So how did you get into those details and feel like you could really move people forward in those detailed conversations about curriculum and instruction, even if they were kind of outside your personal experience?
[06:22] SPEAKER_00:
I'm extraordinarily glad you asked this question, because when I work individually with evaluators, that is almost always the feedback I get as I'm pressing them to provide more constructive feedback. The answer for me is that We have to have the confidence as evaluators that we can consistently add value. And so I use that term a lot when I'm working with evaluators. Are we adding value? So we don't have to be an expert in everything. So if I'm walking into a French classroom right now to do an evaluation and say it's French 4, where the majority of instruction is delivered in a language that is completely non-germane to me, there's different techniques that I have to use.
[06:53]
So for me, the way that I always coach my evaluators is that we don't have to be perfect and we don't have to be all-knowing, but we have to be able to be strong enough in a handful of areas that we can add value. And so that's the paradigm that I always walked in with. And then I think that one of the things that we miss with evaluation because we're so caught up in following a format or protocol is that every time we're in a classroom, we should be learning. So by the time that I left the classroom as an evaluator, as a principal, and now I do it, I'm in tons of classrooms with a consultant hat on. I was such a better evaluator simply because I was in those classrooms. And so the thing for me is that confidence is lacking for evaluators all the time because we're never going to be omniscient and know every aspect of pedagogy and CNI.
[07:36]
But the issue is that if we continue to develop and we are the lead learner in the building, we stay unfinished, that we're always going to be able to add some value. And so that's always the way I try to pop up people's confidence. And when we talk about this is that become an expert in one area at first, continue to develop your repertoire as you go through, but always consistently add value to the individuals you're supporting. And then you're going to add in value to the organization. Additionally, as a side note, if there's an instructional emphasis thrust theme, whatever the vernacular of your building is, then you best be fully equipped to lead that. So the first person you need to lead is yourself.
[08:09]
So if you're an elementary principal and you are exploring the tenets of guided math as a new philosophy, that's not something you can tacitly lead. That's something that you have to completely involve yourself in. And then once you have confidence in that, then you can lead, provide constructive feedback so teachers can grow. So I think that it's You have to have confidence that you can consistently add value, pick things to be experts in based on the demands and needs of your building, and then make sure that you yourself are the lead learner and stay unfinished.
[08:37] SPEAKER_02:
Did you say stay unfinished?
[08:39] SPEAKER_00:
Yeah, that's a term I picked up from one of my professors in doc school is that the greatest leaders stay unfinished. And so unfinished is just such a kind of a weird word to say that it sticks out to people. So I use it quite a bit just because the vernacular is so probably improper. But it tends to have some clinginess to it when used. And so that's kind of the way that I always look at it is that no matter where you're at, you've never really arrived. And so that there's constant development to take.
[09:02]
There's always a next thing. And one of the things I tell the principals in my district is that if you ever feel like I'm not pushing you hard enough, then that's my fault. Because whatever we do is never going to be good enough. Because at the end of the day, we're in the service of providing information. an environment and atmosphere for kids to be the best that they can be. And we're never going to be perfect at that.
[09:22]
So there's always going to be a next step. There's always going to be something that we need to do to get better at to better meet the needs from a whole group of kids to a subset of kids to an individual child.
[09:31] SPEAKER_02:
Well, and that's a shift that I think we've had to make as a profession, you know, when we made the shift from satisfactory, unsatisfactory into these multi-tiered evaluation systems. But also in terms of expertise, you know, I'm thinking about modeling when we're adopting a new curriculum. And I was an elementary principal. So Thinking about a new curriculum that we were adopting, I didn't really know the old curriculum that well, and I could attend the training with teachers on the new curriculum, and I'm thinking specifically about writing, but I never felt like I was the best at it. And I don't know that I felt that I was really good enough. I wanted my teachers to get to a certain place where, because of their experience, because of their training, they would be better with that curriculum than I could be having just gone through the training and not having that day-to-day experience.
[10:17]
But I love the visual that you're giving there of being kind of unfinished and continuing to grow, continuing kind of like a plant that grows from the top, continuing to add on those cells to move closer to where we want to be. And I think that, if I'm honest about it, I think that fear of not being kind of satisfactory in my own mind, kept me from modeling at times when I very well could have taken what I had learned in a training and worked with teachers either in their classrooms or in professional development to do that modeling and in the process model not just the instructional strategy or the teaching technique, but that practice of being unfinished. So I think that's a great concept.
[11:01] SPEAKER_00:
Yeah, I think that's a really salient point. And I think that one of the things that as you were talking that I kept thinking about is the power of vulnerability. I think it's something that as leaders in schools, we often believe that we need to be, again, perfect in what we do. And I think that when we show vulnerability and show that approaching a veteran teacher and saying, I see what you're doing in terms of questioning, do you know kind of why you do what you do? Because I need to be able to teach it and I need you, can you help me learn The why and the how of what you do because all I can right now is point out the what. So I know what you do well.
[11:32]
Can you help me in that? Having a conversation like that and allowing yourself to be vulnerable in terms of building culture of continuous improvement and growth and also kind of building goodwill, typically asking for help we see as this big obstacle that we fear asking for help at all levels, particularly as principals. Asking your teachers for help, asking other principals for help, it's just something in education we need to get over. It's one of the things we need to practice what we preach, again, in terms of modeling. So we always tell people, you know, don't suffer in silence. Ask for help.
[11:59]
We're here to support you. But then oftentimes as building leaders and district leaders, we're the last person to ask for help. So I think that, again, in terms of building culture and modeling, that's a huge step forward that we can take.
[12:09] SPEAKER_02:
And let's talk about a related issue, which is helping teachers reflect. So we've been in this paradigm for years and years of satisfactory, unsatisfactory. And the process itself still encourages us to focus on the rating. What's the bottom line? What's the score that the teacher is going to walk away with? What are some approaches that you use to help teachers actually be reflective in the evaluation process and really focus on their growth, focus on where they are and where they want to go?
[12:36]
How do you pull that out and keep the focus on reflection?
[12:40] SPEAKER_00:
So one of the analogies I use all the time is that if you can't swim and I throw you into the deep end of the pool, when you get out of the pool, if you survive, then you're not going to be able to tell me exactly what techniques you use to survive. So when we put people under this extraordinary pressure of where evaluation is just an assessment of your value to the organization, it's very hard to cause reflection through that. So for me, again, it's a culture issue. So if the culture is positive, there's different things we can do. The best reflection that I see consistently, right? So like, obviously you're gonna have outliers and individuals that do different things, but in terms of creating systems is video.
[13:14]
And so a lot of the software systems that are now used to support teacher evaluation and one that I think does a great job is probably the industry leaders inside advanced. They allow teachers to video themselves share that video with not only their evaluator but also their peers so that they can kind of do kind of a 360 self-analysis. I don't think there's anything more powerful to cause reflection than video. When I've coached teachers that have gone through the national board certification process, that's almost universally the feedback they get is that, my goodness, is it painful to watch yourself on video, but I learned so much about things. Everything from verbal tics to body language when somebody asks a certain question that they may not find meaningful. all of those things.
[13:54]
So for me, if there's anything systematically we need to do kind of educationally as the global profession is that we have to get over the fear of video. And obviously we see what's happening in terms of content delivery and how people are consuming content in terms of PR and media. Video is becoming ubiquitous into what we do. So at some point we need to take that leap. And there's no better coaching conversation than I've ever seen, even with an average teacher evaluator to sit alongside the teacher, watch the video and collaboratively discuss what they see. There's no better coaching for improvement that I've seen other than that stimulus.
[14:28] SPEAKER_02:
Absolutely. We've had a webinar series going on this year called Impact Now with Dr. Tanya Gorey. And just to hear how she used video in her school to bring about dramatic transformation in such a short period of time. You know, it's like, especially for teachers who are already good, I often found that finding something to help them realize could be better. It was much easier for them to do that themselves on video than it was for me to go in and be the one who was saying, you know, kind of nitpicking around the edges.
[14:58]
And I find that, you know, just as with students, teachers are harder on themselves when it comes to identifying those areas for growth. So I totally agree. I think video is just one of the most powerful tools that we ever could have asked for. And there's never been a better time to start using video.
[15:14] SPEAKER_00:
Yeah, the tools have become so much cheaper and ubiquitous in terms of what we're using. The other thing which I see what happens with video is that as an evaluator, I typically go in and I see the next most logical change somebody can make, almost from like an opportunity cost perspective. So if you are going to spend time on this this is your most bang for the buck that you're going to do to improve. With video, people can kind of see the whole picture bigger to say, I need to rethink my whole strategy on engagement, where it's not just that next most logical change, where it can be this big adaptive transformational change, which occurs at a much greater pace because of the visual effect from my experience.
[15:47] SPEAKER_02:
Well, thinking about that process of helping teachers be reflective, what are some questions and approaches that you've come up with to help teachers reflect, to get them thinking about their practice and what their next steps are? Talk to me about the questions that you use.
[16:03] SPEAKER_00:
So for me, the questions are twofold. So I look at the questions from first as a principal, what am I going to do to drive the evaluation process? Because I think sometimes we just get into the process and we forget exactly why we are doing it. And so A few years ago, I started working with districts. What I have found, surprisingly or not surprisingly, is that a lot of times principals do their evaluations, they turn it into the HR office or to their superintendent, and then the evaluation never gets read again. So there's no accountability metric for the principal on the thing which they're providing accountability for everyone else.
[16:35]
So what some districts have hired me in to do is basically I read all their evaluations and then I synthesize that information into here are the things that you need to know as the superintendent, as the principal, so that you can coach to improve. And so that's really where I've developed these driving questions after going through literally thousands of evaluations and saying, these are the things that make good evaluations good. These are the things that make average evaluations average. And if we focus on these questions, we can really drive things forward and also provide some ability for self analysis. And so some of those questions deal with themes, deal with evidence of framework mastery and everything down. And so the book kind of categorizes it into 10 big questions that drive successful evaluation from the principal perspective.
[17:13]
From the principal perspective, then in terms of serving teachers, The biggest thing that I encourage everyone to remember is that it goes back to my favorite TED Talk of all time, the Simon Sinek, the Golden Circle. And so when we are focusing on what questions with teachers, we're going to get the answers that are textbook, right? So what am I going to see? What is occurring in the lesson? What happened here? And so all of a sudden, we're just going to get on a fact base.
[17:36]
But if we get into how did you do it and to why did you do it, that's when we can actually kind of get into the hearts, minds, souls of teachers and actually cause change. And so that's the biggest thing in terms of principals working directly with teachers is to look at every question you're going to ask during a pre-conference, reflective conference. And I would say that the vast majority of people and the ones I've observed, the 80 to 90 percent of the questions are what questions. And so how can you flip that same what question into a how question and a why question? Because ultimately, if we just ask the what questions, we always treat the symptoms. And so if we say, you know, what are the objectives for the day and they change?
[18:11]
tell me the objectives. And then I say, well, I didn't see those objectives present. Then all of a sudden, generally the feedback is always going to be make sure the objectives are listed on the board in this format. That's almost universally what I see. But if I say to someone, do you know why it's important? And they say, well, it's important because you, you know, Mr.
[18:29]
Principal, you told me that I need to have the objectives on the board. I would say that that sounds like a hyperbolic scenario there. It's not. Trust me, it's not. So when we work, when I work with teachers and say, well, why are we doing this? And it's because Well, because, you know, from high above, we were given this dictate.
[18:45]
And so it's our job as principals to teach. And so if we are saying this is important or if Marzano says it's important or if Danielson says it's important or whatever hybrid that you've created as a district says this is important, we need to also be able to articulate why this is important and why it better serves kids. Because once we hit that note and say this is better because it's going to serve kids better, teachers are much more likely to do something with fidelity than teachers. It's just a mandate from above, and hopefully when I put the objectives on the board that there's a walkthrough so I get positive credit for it.
[19:17] SPEAKER_02:
Yeah, I totally agree. And I think we have so many of these conversations that are what-oriented. What are you going to do today? How did you think it went? How did the students respond? And they stay at that factual level that doesn't really move anybody forward.
[19:31]
And I think we want to know why. We want to know how our teachers are thinking. We want to know how they're making decisions. We want to know what was going through their head and what their rationale was as they made various instructional decisions. And one of the things that I found pretty interesting is that if we want to know why, sometimes we don't get a why answer when we ask a why question. We get kind of a justification.
[19:53]
You know, why did you do that? Well, because you said to or because I'm supposed to. And I found that often we can get the best why answers by asking how questions. Like, how did you think that was supposed to work? Like, how did you see this playing out in your plan? Or how did you think students responded when you did X?
[20:12]
And I find that that cause and effect thinking that comes out of that to really fuel some rich discussions about teaching and learning.
[20:18] SPEAKER_00:
Yeah, I think that's a great point. I think just inherently asking how as opposed to why is somewhat less abrasive, even if you frame the question the same way. One of the things that I ask our principals to reflect on all the time is the level of questioning we ask in a teacher interview. You know, you go through a teacher interview, you're asking all the questions about planning. What are you going to do in this scenario? What are you going to do in that scenario?
[20:39]
we get so much better information from those than we do our pre-conference questions. Our pre-conference questions to me, we focus so much on the lesson we're going to see as opposed to the global preparation process. So I've just asked them, I said, just for a sample, will you invert those for me? Just take the questions you would ask in an interview and as a district, you know, we have a base questionnaire that we ask for first interviews and throw that into the pre-conference, see what happens. And it's just amazing that teachers want to talk about what they want to do. Like it's not, necessarily so invasive.
[21:07]
Sometimes teachers are really proud that they've got a modified UBD that they use for their planning. And there may be a principal for five years that never knew that because they've never asked the question or explored it. So it's also an opportunity not just to find holes, but also to celebrate some great things that are taking place otherwise that we might not ever know about.
[21:25] SPEAKER_02:
All right. So my final question, if you could wave a magic wand, PJ, and just transform the profession in one specific way, what would you have everyone do? Or what would you change in our profession if you could just wave a magic wand when it comes to making evaluation meaningful?
[21:41] SPEAKER_00:
Well, I'm obsessed with evaluation. I think the global change I would say is that I would subject specific certifications in classes at the high school. I would do away with those. So that's a much broader question that might be a different book at a different time we can discuss. In terms of evaluation, if there was some other metric or mechanism we could use that was the assessment for job sustainability, I think if we could separate those two in some aspect, I think would be huge. And the way I always use it is that everyone in the building, the principal is usually the last person in the building that knows that a teacher needs to go.
[22:15]
And so the saying we always use is we fire people for two reasons, if they're incompetent or insubordinate. because it puts the pressure back on us to prove that we've provided support. So that would be one. The other thing which I think is more tangible is the idea that I'm exploring is I don't know if given the demands of a principal today, if a principal as evaluator actually works. So why don't we think differently? So if I'm going around all these districts and everyone's telling me we have the same types of problems with evaluation, why don't we kind of blow it up?
[22:44]
Why aren't we using master teachers? Why aren't we doing something different. If we have someone that we know is a great evaluator, why don't they evaluate three buildings of stuff? And that's their only responsibility is to be an evaluator. So to me, I think that we might need to blow up the whole system to get it right. because I don't know if principals, A, have enough time, B, are willing to put the time in to truly be great at this when they have to be great at so many other things as well.
[23:06] SPEAKER_02:
So the book is Making Evaluation Meaningful, Transforming the Conversation to Transform Schools. And PJ, if people want to learn more about your work or get in touch with you or see your other books, where's the best place for them to connect with you online?
[23:19] SPEAKER_00:
The most all-inclusive place would be my website, www.pjcaposey.com. I'm also on Instagram and Twitter at MCUSDSoup, soup with an E. PJ, thanks so much for joining me on Principal Center Radio.
[23:33] SPEAKER_02:
It's been great to chat with you.
[23:34] SPEAKER_00:
Sincerely appreciate it, Justin. Thank you.
[23:37] SPEAKER_01:
And now, Justin Bader on high-performance instructional leadership.
[23:41] SPEAKER_02:
So, high-performance instructional leaders. What did you take away from my conversation with PJ Capozzi about making teacher evaluation meaningful, making that process helpful for teachers beyond the hiring and firing aspect of evaluation? One of the things that I really want to emphasize is the power of video. Many of us grew up in an era where video was very cumbersome. We were teachers at a time when it involved actual tapes. And the reality now is that video is so powerful and so easy that I think we're almost crazy not to use it.
[24:17]
And I want to share with you a series that we're doing for our pro members. If you go to principalcenter.com slash impact now, you can learn more about our year-long webinar series with Dr. Tanya Goree, who is a principal in Texas who has just had incredible results, just brought about dramatic turnarounds in two different schools using video as the focal point for teacher growth and evaluation. So it really is a tremendous model for coaching teachers and helping them grow. So again, you can find out more about that at principalcenter.com slash impact now, all one word, or you can join our pro membership and get access to everything that we offer, including the full series at principalcenter.com slash join.
[25:01] Announcer:
Thanks for listening to Principal Center Radio. For more great episodes, subscribe on our website at principalcenter.com slash radio.
