Read Write Code: A Friendly Introduction to the World of Coding, and Why It’s the New Literacy

[00:01] Announcer:

Welcome to Principal Center Radio, helping you build capacity for instructional leadership. Here's your host, Director of the Principal Center, Dr. Justin Bader. Welcome, everyone, to Principal Center Radio.

[00:13] SPEAKER_00:

I'm your host, Justin Bader, and I'm honored to welcome to the program Jeremy Kishin. Jeremy is CEO and co-founder of CodeHS, the leading coding education platform for schools, which is used by millions of students. He is an expert in computer science education and education technology, and he has spent time in hundreds of schools all over the world. Prior to starting CodeHS, he taught computer science at a little school called Stanford and He is joining me today to talk about his new book, Read Write Code, a friendly introduction to the world of coding and why it's the new literacy.

[00:49] Announcer:

And now our feature presentation.

[00:52] SPEAKER_01:

Jeremy, welcome to Principal Center Radio. Yeah, thank you, Justin. Welcome. And I'm excited to be here on the show talking with you.

[00:58] SPEAKER_00:

Well, I'm excited to jump into this because we've been hearing a lot about how coding is a new literacy or the new literacy and certainly something that we want our students to have access to as a skill. Why is it the new literacy? What exactly does that mean?

[01:12] SPEAKER_01:

That's a great question and a great place to start. You know, that's kind of how I start with the book. You know, the book is called Read Write Code and talks about why coding is a new literacy. The idea is, you know, in our technology driven world, more and more. You know, you can't just be on the side and just as a kind of consumer of technology and understanding how you can actually create and understand is just becoming more and more essential. The analogy that I like to use and that I use also in the book is, you know, reading and writing, those are kind of core foundational skills.

[01:47]

You expect students to, you know, graduate, no reading and writing, but it doesn't mean you're going to be a professional reader. professional writer but you're using them every day you know no matter what you do and it's part of just being an educated citizen but you know you go back 500 years and actually reading and writing was a skill that was reserved for a for a small group of people but over time you know literacy opened up you know so many opportunities and you know it's changed completely and i think we're at that kind of printing press moment for for coding for technology that with With the internet, with the computers, right now, a small group of people know how to code and know about the opportunities that presents. And I think we'll look back in the next 10, 20, 50 years, and we'll see that it's really a foundational skill. The idea is you don't need to be a professional programmer to find it useful, but that no matter what industry you're in,

[02:41]

You know, you're using technology, you're interacting with technology, and it's just, you know, it's an essential skill to know. So that's kind of the, you know, the gist of why I think it's such an important skill today.

[02:53] SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, absolutely. I couldn't agree more. And I've always been kind of at the edge of knowing how to code, like I have not really quite known how to do, but like learned HTML as a high school student and can kind of do things that are adjacent to that world without ever really having had the opportunity to actually dig in. What are some of the actual skills? People have heard of HTML, we've heard of being able to code webpages. What are some of the actual kind of deeper understandings that are central to that literacy?

[03:26]

Because I get the sense that this is not just another, you know, kind of job skill or academic subject, but that there's a connection to being able to live as a citizen in a democracy, being able to participate in society that draws on some of those concepts. What would you say some of those are?

[03:46] SPEAKER_01:

know the book it's primarily about coding but you know there's coding there's computational thinking there's computer science they're all connected and they they kind of you know interact in a lot of different ways you know you mentioned is it a job skill is it an academic skill i think coding and computer science is something that really blends a lot of that i think you know it is a great job skill you know jobs are growing a lot in computer science and and related fields it is a very academic skill you know there is so much you know, research to be done around how we're applying computing to all different areas. But I think, you know, your question was more about how is it just an everyday life skill? And I think that's something that maybe not everyone knows how it connects. Part of what I want to do in the book is kind of demystify it and say, actually, hey, you might have like a fear of coding. It just that's for someone else to learn. But you can learn this.

[04:33]

You should learn this. And here's why it applies. I can give you a particular example. So, you know, one chapter in the book is about, you know, cybersecurity. And I think more and more, if you're reading in the news, you're seeing different things are hacked. You know, a school system might get hacked.

[04:49]

The health system might get hacked. People are talking about the security of the election and that we're talking about. But I would argue that most people maybe don't have the foundation there to understand what that means and what are the considerations around privacy and data tracking and all of that. And then, you know, you mentioned that point about being just a kind of educated citizen in a democracy. I think given that so many of these issues that we talk about interact with technology, that a lot of the legislation that comes out might, you know, actually makes no sense and has this, you know, makes me think, wow, if the people who are actually making the laws really understood the basics of computer science, we'd be doing things that would be a lot smarter. And so I think it is an everyday skill.

[05:30]

You know, you think about even just say data tracking, you know, what are the different considerations with how your data is tracked by, say, you know, say Google or just on Google Maps. And what does that mean? And should people care? And I don't know if people have those kind of building blocks to evaluate that. And I think it's something that we, you know, everyone really should have those building blocks. It'll just, it really will elevate the discourse.

[05:55]

But that's, again, whether you're talking about it as how does it impact everyday life? How does it impact, you know, job skills? How do you impact academic skills? I think you can find so many connections.

[06:04] SPEAKER_00:

Oh, so many. And we're recording this during one of those recurring periods in history where there's a lot of interest in cryptocurrency and a lot of probably amateur investors getting into cryptocurrency, many of whom will probably lose their shirts because of maybe the lack of literacy. What do you talk about in the book with regards to cryptocurrency and how do you see that as being relevant for the future?

[06:25] SPEAKER_01:

Right. Yeah, what I try to do in the book is I try and kind of position it more as like a map. Like I think there might be a sense of if you don't know about coding, you might not know what you don't know and you don't know where to start and you don't know how it connects. So with cryptocurrency, I just try to explain, you know, hey, what are the basic? What are the pieces? Why is it interesting?

[06:43]

Why are people talking about it? What's kind of the history around it? I talk a bit about some of the kind of most popular ones, Bitcoin and Ethereum. You know, I talk about like What is a, you know, what's a blockchain? What are some of the different applications? And then connect it to like, you know, different topics that are actually kind of powering some of these systems.

[07:03]

So how are people understanding, you know, public, private key cryptography and, you know, how secure messages are sent and just kind of, you know, it's a high level survey, but trying to take topics that can sound really intimidating and demystify them a little bit. So trying to just give like a little bit of overview, kind of the various parts of, you of cryptocurrency yeah it's not really saying like oh you should go and get this i mean it is it is saying hey here's why you know this is an interesting application you know computing and one worth learning about you know in terms of cutting edge technologies but it's definitely in the news it's definitely of interest yeah and i like that metaphor of a map just to kind of understand where where does this fit what kind of thing is this because you're hearing about it and it does plug into this kind of larger body of knowledge about information technology absolutely Yeah, and I think that's also, you know, given that, you know, principals are listening here, I do think that analogy helps, you know, principals think about why should they care, you know, because I think if you are a principal and you're talking about bringing computer science to your school, you know, maybe not every principal right now is an expert on teaching computer science in schools.

[08:09]

That's okay. That's kind of the current state of things. But I think if you're wondering, hey, where, you know, what are these kind of modern skills? What is the direction that things are going? You know, how do I, you know, offer, you know, computer science classes or, you know, a lot of parents want schools to offer computer science classes. How does that all fit in?

[08:29]

I think that just the idea of the book is kind of giving you, again, a lay of the land and seeing what's out there, seeing how that connects. And then I just think it provides a little bit of missing context because maybe you're maybe you have one course or you're trying to teach an intro computer science course in high school. I think that's a great thing to do and a great place to start. And maybe you're teaching, you know, one programming language. but to understand, okay, here's a programming language. How does this fit in among other programming languages?

[08:55]

What are kind of the other related topics? What are some of the advanced topics? You know, how does that apply to me? How does it apply to teachers? How does it apply to students? I think the context is just really important.

[09:06] SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, absolutely. Especially for, you know, for schools that are looking to expand their offerings, just kind of understanding the space and then being able to, you know, to be literate enough in order to, you know, I think as instructional leaders, often we're responsible for things that we're not experts in. Like that's just the nature of the job. You know, I'm not an expert in band and chemistry and, you know, 10th grade English, you know, all the different things that we're responsible for, but we do have to be conversant.

[09:33] SPEAKER_01:

I think you have to be conversant because I think part of what you want to do is you are setting your priorities. And the question for a lot of administrators right now and ones that we're talking to is, you know, is computer science education going to be one of your priorities? And I think the districts that are really pushing the envelope and the schools that are really pushing the envelope are going, hey, we should be teaching these skills. These are, you know, problem solving skills, critical thinking skills, applicable skills, college skills, job skills, you know, creative skills. And yeah, I think you don't just want to like pass up and go, okay, hey, here's a teacher who's just going to do it. You know, if you can engage with it a little bit more, you know, it helps.

[10:12]

I think it helps to find the direction that you want to go. And we're just, again, at Codex, we're just seeing more and more school and district administrators wanting to prioritize computer science and hearing it from, you know, a lot of parents in their communities too, probably.

[10:24] SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, absolutely. Now, I think one of the biggest challenges for schools has been around staffing. I might want to offer a rich array of computer science courses, but to be honest, I don't think I can find someone who would be able to cover all these classes, to be able to have the skills. Often the salaries are challenging because a Stanford educated computer scientist probably is going to expect to make five to 10 times what we're able to pay on our salary schedule. Talk to me a little bit about how you work with schools to make more robust computer science offerings possible.

[11:02] SPEAKER_01:

Right. No, I think that's a great question. And I think professional development really is central to a lot of what we do and to a lot of the longer-term planning when we help partner with schools. Part of the idea, though, with what we're doing with CodeHS and with the book is that so much of coding computer science, it seems so foreign. And Principal may think, OK, I don't have anyone who can do this. I'm not even going to try.

[11:25]

But I think kind of pulling back the cover and go, actually, yeah, there actually are really easy ways to get started. You can do this. Here's what's appropriate if you're trying to do that in middle school or high school. And we help, you know, a lot, a lot of teachers who are getting started, you know, for the first time in teaching computer science. And previously they were teaching math. You know, maybe they were teaching math or science or, you know, English or social studies, and they get into computer science and a year, two, three years later, you know, they're loving teaching computer science.

[11:54]

And again, there's different things you're going to achieve in your first year teaching, second, third, fifth, tenth, you know, but we're working with teachers who they're going from the first year to they've been doing it for, you know, decades. And I think what I would say to, you know, principals who are hesitant around computer science for that reason, one, it's a totally valid reason, but I think if you are, you know, finding teachers who are excited to do this, then, you know, with professional development opportunities that we offer, you know, or others, there are really good ways to get teachers started. And it's not like you're just, they're starting from zero. And so with, you know, with what we try to do, you know, we have, you know, over 60 courses on our site. They're all mapped to different standards, you know, whether that's by state or whether that's, you know, a particular course that they're trying to teach and, you know, having different types of PD. And we're doing a lot of virtual this year, but, you know, courses, PD courses.

[12:48]

know in person when that's possible really supporting the teachers and and going hey this is this is possible you can do this and basically a professional development strategy for teachers who haven't been computer science teachers in the past we've done it successfully you know thousands and thousands of times and i think we shouldn't let the fear of something new prevent us from trying to offer that if that's the direction that the principal of the school wants to go. I think, again, finding excited teachers, pairing them up with good professional development responsibilities. And I think for the most engaged administrators, for themselves, too, trying to learn about it. And I think that will provide better coaching opportunities. And I think that's actually still at a very early level. I don't think you've seen that many administrators who are engaging with that type of professional development.

[13:39]

And I think that will help also build, you know, computer science programs. But that's just the beginning. There's so much to it. But I think it's actually you can do it and we've done it and people have been really successful. And, you know, they're stepping stones. You know, they're stepping stones.

[13:56] SPEAKER_00:

Well, and I think part of the paradigm that has to be a little bit different that we have to understand as administrators is that we're not necessarily going to hire someone who majored in this in college, right? Typically like social studies teacher majored in history and English teacher majored in English in college. And it's just not, that's just not the way the computer science profession is structured, right? That there are lots of ways to learn, lots of ways to enter that profession.

[14:17] SPEAKER_01:

Right, so I think to your point, I think there will be a lot of computer science teachers who did study it, and they're also teaching it. But then I think you'll also have a lot of teachers who didn't. But that's going to vary. And that having more entry points for teachers, especially since, again, it still is so new. And, you know, probably over half the schools right now still don't have any courses. And just to say, you know, can we offer one course at a school as a starting point?

[14:44]

But I think over, you know, five, 10 years, you know, people expect and want to take multiple years of computer science courses. And, you know, some schools or districts have built out, you know, K through 12 pathways. I think you're going to see, you know, if you see how the standards are going with computer science, more and more states are adopting that. computer science standards over time or computer science requirements to have them be offered. So I think, you know, maybe there's like a 50-50 chance you're not in one of those states, but, you know, it's good to get ahead of the curve. And I think these are, they're actually just really fun, engaging classes and Yeah, it's the direction things are going.

[15:21] SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely. And we certainly see the parent demand. We certainly see the student interest. And yeah, I think just being able to offer the course is the missing piece for a lot of schools. Talk to me a little bit about the technology that students need in order to really... None of us want to envision students learning coding from a textbook.

[15:43]

We want this to be hands-on. What kind of hardware do people need access to in order to be able to do this kind of thing?

[15:49] SPEAKER_01:

Right now it's, you know, it's easier than ever to get started. You know, you do need computers, you do need an internet connection, but that's about it. You know, it can work on any type of computer, computer lab, desktop, laptop, Chromebook, you know, as long as they're, they're connected, you know, we have, you know, students and teachers all over the country, all over the world. using CodeHS, that's how you can get started. I mean, I would say, you know, again, obviously things are a little bit different this year with so much virtual learning and we support all that. But then for teachers, when you're doing it as blended learning, you know, you're on the computer, you're off the computer, you have students collaborating or pair programming and working together and you know kind of diagramming and solving different problems or puzzles or kind of building up concepts it's not learning coding doesn't always need to be all on the computer you know but you do you know you just need a chromebook and an internet connection to get to get started and and really that's it it's it's this is different than a decade ago where before we started and before the kind of

[16:48]

next generation of like kind of ed tech apps, it was way harder. And you need to figure out how to like manage devices, download programs like locally to computers, to manage environments for running programs. And, you know, on CodeHS, you can go, you know, click, create a new project and run a Java, Python, whatever program at five seconds, you know, share it to your students, five seconds, create your own new assignment in 10 seconds, just lowers the friction a lot.

[17:15] SPEAKER_00:

And I see there are lots of different languages, JavaScript, Python, Java, HTML, C++, SQL, lots of different technologies that people can learn.

[17:23] SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, there's that and many more. I think in schools we see JavaScript and Python are definitely popular. One of the AP courses uses Java. So yeah, those are good places to start. They're also professional level languages, but you can teach them in a nicely scaffolded way. That's what we try and do with our curriculum.

[17:44] SPEAKER_00:

So the book is Read, Write, Code, a friendly introduction to the world of coding and why it's the new literacy. And Jeremy, if people want to learn more about CodeHS or more about your work, where are some of the best places for them to go online?

[17:57] SPEAKER_01:

You can find CodeHS online at CodeHS.com. You can find anything about the book at ReadWriteCodeBook.com or myself under JeremyKeishen.com or jkeish anywhere on the internet. So yeah, check it out and feel free to let me know what you think.

[18:14] SPEAKER_00:

Well, Jeremy, thank you so much for joining me on Principal Center Radio. Awesome. Thank you so much, Justin.

[18:19] Announcer:

Thanks for listening to Principal Center Radio. For more great episodes, subscribe on our website at PrincipalCenter.com slash radio.