The Art of Talking with Children: The Simple Keys to Nurturing Kindness, Creativity, and Confidence in Kids

[00:01] SPEAKER_01:

Welcome to Principal Center Radio, bringing you the best in professional practice.

[00:06] Announcer:

Here's your host, director of the Principal Center and champion of high-performance instructional leadership, Justin Bader. Welcome, everyone, to Principal Center Radio.

[00:15] SPEAKER_02:

I'm your host, Justin Bader, and I'm honored to be joined today by Rebecca Cota and Rick Jetter.

[00:21] Announcer:

And now, our feature presentation.

[00:23] SPEAKER_02:

Rebecca and Rick, welcome to Principal Center Radio. Thanks, Justin. Thanks for having us, man.

[00:27] SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, we appreciate being here.

[00:28] SPEAKER_02:

So we're here today to talk about your book with a slightly unconventional title, Escaping the School Leader's Dunk Tank, How to Prevail When Others Want to See You Drown. I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about your professional background and maybe where this dunk tank idea comes from. Have you been in the dunk tank? I feel like I've been in the dunk tank at different points. But yeah, give us some background on where that idea comes from in your personal history.

[00:54] SPEAKER_00:

Thanks. Justin. I'll just jump in. My background in general is obviously in education, coming up as a teacher. I taught language arts for several years and then really moved into instructional coaching, leading teachers and kind of being that liaison between teachers and administration. And then my past four years, I took that next leap into the district office as a district specialist, first as an ELA specialist and then moving into technology.

[01:23]

And I think there's like this really big shift when you move from the classroom into any type of leadership role. And we're taught all the positives of leadership and we're taught those mentorship things that we do for other people. But I think that one big missing element is what do you do in those adversarial conditions? And unfortunately, when I moved into the district office, I wasn't really equipped with that skill set. And it was something that was kind of a rude awakening for me and something that I discovered. And, you know, before I knew it, here I was a hardworking, ethical person.

[02:01]

And I was finding myself in the midst of all these emotional driving forces and adversarial tactics kind of thrown against me. And it really took a lot of reflection and connecting with Rick for us to, you know, come up with this idea. Actually, Rick started the idea and, you know, it kind of just went from there?

[02:23] SPEAKER_02:

Former teacher, assistant principal, principal, assistant superintendent, superintendent of schools. Left my career, it was a dunk tank situation, and I started a career of educational consulting and writing, working for a great company, AEP, where I'm their director of K-12 education. And, you know, I kind of look back on how things went down, and there are so many political factors that enter into school districts. Unfortunately, it hurts the kids, too. And From there, Rebecca and I put this book together to really help other school leaders and teacher leaders to try to prevail in their careers. We all know that there's just crazy stuff that happens, crazy political factors, and a lot of people don't talk about them.

[03:07]

It's that elephant in the room, and we decided to expose the elephant and found a great publisher, Dave Burgess, who is a publisher of things that go against the status quo. and wanted to help us send our message out about exposing the elephant of politics. And it's been, you know, Justin, it's been so humbling, the response that we've gotten from this book and people writing to us and emailing us and tweeting us about all the garbage that they're going through. And, you know, we call it a revolution and people are joining it. And we're so happy that we can help other people to prevail because it helps the kids ultimately. And it sounds like we're talking about things that go beyond just the tough issue or the crisis in the school or the challenge that needs to be handled.

[03:53]

We're going beyond just situations that diplomacy alone can handle, right?

[03:59] SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely. I think we just we have so many adversarial factors stacking up against us. in the first place, just from funding, the common core, the use of technology, like the pressures of, you know, standardized assessment. So the pressures really are exponential and far beyond any other profession. And I think that it, you know, it makes or breaks people quite honestly.

[04:25] SPEAKER_02:

Justin, you know, Rebecca and I contend that when adult misbehavior takes place, when there are so many factors in terms of why adults go off the deep end themselves and go after their colleagues. We contend that it affects student achievement. And one cannot be an instructional leader when there are all these landmines in the fields within the educational system. And people really have opened their eyes to what we talk about in our book. And it's just an amazing piece of work. We're very proud of it.

[04:56]

But again, we're so humbled with how we're helping others. Yeah, well, let's get into kind of the anatomy of one of these dunk tank situations. When someone else wants to see you go down, what is the kind of early warning sign that this is not just going to be a run-of-the-mill angry parent or disgruntled staff member, but this is actually going to be a pretty dangerous situation professionally? What are some of our warning signs?

[05:19] SPEAKER_00:

Well, one of the coined phrases that we kind of came up with, which is not a clinical term, so we'll have our disclaimer here, is the idea of proactive paranoia. And it's that idea that when you have that first initial gut reaction where you're like, hmm, that wasn't quite right. Is this in isolation? And then you might have that feeling again and you may see a pattern or you may see somebody that you trust acting differently. That inner voice that is speaking to you is probably that earliest warning sign that's kind of, going off. And so when that does go off, I think that the first step is to just start watching and observing and start looking for some of those emotional driving forces.

[06:04]

Because, you know, that inner voice that we hear, that proactive paranoia really is real. And it's our first line of defense to really take a step back before anything really goes down and start, you know, watching for those landmines and see if that's really what's happening.

[06:21] SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, so starting with kind of an intuitive, hmm, something doesn't feel quite right about this situation. Something feels different. Yeah. And then just paying attention for the recurrence of that feeling. Yeah, it's a leadership withedness, as we could also call it. And, you know, the range of emotions, those driving forces behind why people do what they do can be anything from jealousy to revenge to being guilty by association in the organization if someone is not liked and they're hired.

[06:50]

You know, we've had school leaders across the nation share their stories with us, and those are in the book. And a typical example that we've actually heard more common than not is, let's say that a school leader has to hold someone accountable. And that person being held accountable is linked to board members or relatives in the community, where if they don't like what needs to happen, they get their army together and go after that person who is trying to hold them accountable. Absolutely. So you've heard stories like that from people all around the country?

[07:24] SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely. They're still flooding in. It's pretty crazy. Everybody wants to be heard right now.

[07:30] SPEAKER_02:

Well, and I think we go into this profession with great intentions. And I think the vast majority of the time, the vast majority of people in this profession act with good intentions. But that doesn't mean that these kind of nasty political situations don't occur. And I, too, hear from people all the time who say, you know, I ran afoul of some other person that I work with or whatever. you know, have some interaction with, and it's just been downhill from there. What are some of the kind of proactive steps that we can start to take when we think one of those situations might be on the horizon?

[08:06]

When we think that something might be inbound, what are some kind of defensive measures that we can take proactively when we get that feeling? Two that come to my mind, Justin, would be this notion of creating your own alliance. And people within the organization who are trusted And we're not saying just go out and grab a shield from someone, but the people that you have on your team, right, those like-minded people are very helpful and instrumental with helping move your cause and move the organization's cause to better soil, you know, when things are in the water. The other thing is, you know, just really looking at from a behavioral standpoint, how can we interact with our adversaries in a nonviolent manner? Um, whether it be communication or the, the, the actions that we take on a certain issue, we go into depth about the role of nonviolence and really not looking, we use the term adversary instead of enemy because.

[09:01]

Enemy is a much different state of mind. Enemy is, um, puts you in a position where you may not, uh, forgive that person. You may be, uh, looking to win versus lose in a situation. And we didn't want to call anybody enemies within the organization. We wanted to really paint a picture of what can we do constructively to help school leaders prevail.

[09:25] SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, absolutely. Just piggybacking on that. You know, anytime we can take just one step back and really look at, are there emotional driving forces that are behind somebody's intent? Because ultimately, one of the messages that we really want to resonate in the book, like you had mentioned before, is that Everybody does start out with good intentions and ultimately probably does. But sometimes these emotional driving forces can come into play, whether it's skepticism and validity or even just discrimination or inequality. At the end of the day, if we can identify why the person is using adversarial tactics against us or, you know, people in our department or It helps to depersonalize it.

[10:11]

And then once we can depersonalize it, like Rick said, just kind of walking through those steps of nonviolent communication and Being willing to have those professional courageous conversations, you know, just to make sure that we bring it to surface before it gets any bigger than it really is.

[10:27] SPEAKER_02:

And it seems like one communication piece that might be particularly important when we're dealing with a politically tough situation is just communicating about our intentions. I recall working with a coach and having mentors who would who would say to me, you know, it's not enough to communicate about what you're doing. You have to also communicate about why you're doing what you're doing, because if people are missing that information, they will fill in the gaps with their worst assumptions, assumptions you would never imagine that you've never dream in a million years they could have about you. And you've got to be really explicit and intentional as a leader about explaining your why, explaining your rationale, and just creating that level of transparency so that people don't fill in those gaps with assumptions and with things that they might have heard from someone else.

[11:11] SPEAKER_00:

I kind of agree with you more. And really, it just comes down to that underlying idea of trust. You know, it does take mutual trust really to have an effective you know, partnership with anybody that you work with.

[11:23] SPEAKER_02:

I couldn't help but think a little bit of Dwight Schrute from The Office when we were talking about alliances a minute ago. And, you know, I think anyone who's worked in, you know, especially in a central office role where there are lots of adults around who can kind of talk anytime and not kids around to keep you quite as on your toes. In schools often we're with kids so much that we don't really have the same relationships with other adults. But I think every workplace has those kind of informal alliances, people that you trust, people that you don't trust, kind of factions, and you can kind of predict how it's going to break down if there is kind of a split into camps. What are some things that we can do, especially thinking about central office leaders, what are some things that we can do to get ahead of issues that we know are going to be tough and that we know are going to force people into those camps?

[12:14]

How can we kind of put ourselves on the side of kids or on the side of just doing whatever's best if we know that factions are going to form. Well, it's funny that you mentioned that, Justin, because we had a director of personnel contact us very recently, and they're having a difficult time with some dunk tank situations in our district. And basically, they... sought after us to have us come in and help them.

[12:44]

And our number one piece of advice was this has to be a situation where everyone from the top down is on board. So we recommended board retreats where we would train them in the tenants of the dunk tank, everyone at central office and school building leaders. And the funny part is teachers have been purchasing this book and parents to get a glimpse of what's happening and apply it to their own lives as well. So we feel that everyone in the organization should really make a conscious effort to address these issues, whether they're in the dunk tank or someday might end up in the dunk tank, as we use metaphorically. We want people to be prepared. And sometimes even when we think things are going well, right, we're going through our careers, we're going through the system of education.

[13:34]

And we might look at this book on the shelf and say the dunk tank. Oh, I'm not in that. I don't need that. But really what it's done is it's prepared people to think in the future of what could happen, or even just to rely on some best practices of communication and in your own actions. to somewhat put everybody in the organization on the same page. Well, and as you've talked with people who've been through these dunk tank situations and looked at your own path as an educator, what are some of the things that we tend to do that get us on the wrong path or that kind of lay landmines that we'll be circling back around to later on?

[14:10]

What are some of the missteps that we make along the way that we can look out for?

[14:14] SPEAKER_00:

I think it's kind of like what you had mentioned earlier. Sometimes if we don't know somebody's intention, I think you're right. Automatically, we just fill in those blanks just as human nature and start assuming why people are doing the things that they're doing. And then that's when those adversarial tactics start coming into play. That's when you see people whispering in a cubicle. And that's where those rumors start to grow and to fester.

[14:42]

And it is by trying to fill in those blanks. And so those tactics do slow down the organization. Then we start working in isolation. So really it is all about that open communication and preventing it from ever getting that way. And that is through being very aware that this is something that educators really are facing and probably more so than any other profession out there.

[15:11] SPEAKER_02:

So I agree with Rebecca 100%. And so many times we want to be right. People want to be right. They're the experts. They have the degrees. They feel like, you know what, I'm here to be the school leader or the educator and I'm right.

[15:24]

And when we look at issues in terms of right or wrong, we shoot ourselves in the foot, right? I mean, we really sometimes don't do a good job of advocating for ourselves within an issue and we become victims because of how we treat an issue. So, you know, we talk a little bit about that in the book as well. So what are some steps that we can take within an organization, thinking about the relationships that we have with other people or maybe the relationships that are not really there? What are some ways that we can proactively build those relationships so that when the tough times come, when the dunk tank situations come, we're able to weather them?

[16:01] SPEAKER_00:

You know, there are so many different layers of building positive relationships because we have multiple ally groups. I mean, We have probably our most difficult one, which is our vertical relationships. Those are the people that we work and interact with every day, our supervisors, our bosses, and then those people that support us as well. But they're the ones that see us and our behavior every single day. But then we also have ally groups like our horizontal group. So as a STEM coach, my fellow STEM coaches in the district, I have a different relationship with them and I would want to network in a different way.

[16:39]

And even beyond that, like we're doing here today, our external professional relationships, those online professional networks that we have that just really help us thrive and grow and feed ourselves and learning constantly. And then we have our community relationships, those relationships with our parents, with our organizations, our volunteers and our businesses. And then, you know, kind of at the end of the day, what kind of holds us together when we hit adversity are those close personal relationships, those people that we can confide in, that are family, friends, closest center of trust to really help us get through the tough times. So, you know, we've got such a vast selection of groups that we can focus on for really helping us move forward, doing good with any dunk tank situation that might come up.

[17:30] SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, that, I mean, that's great stuff that Rebecca talked about, you know, in conjunction with that in chapter four of our book, we talk about these different aligned relatednesses, right? There's positive, there's neutral and there's negative. And we talk about how people band together based on their common interests. Um, you know, we contend that sometimes it's okay just to be neutral, that if we enjoy one another, there's no positive or negative outcome. We're just, you know, living right in a school district with one another and and trying to move forward so um we go through those three different types of relatedness and the stories that we compiled were really just interesting you know people certainly band together to gang up on others but you know we feel that the the alliances those positive interactions and even if we're neutral within an organization those are still very healthy relationships

[18:22]

Well, and I appreciate that focus on the positive because so much of this we think about when it's becoming negative, but the backdrop is those positive relationships that we develop over the years. And I can't tell you how many times my skin was saved by a good network of positive assumptions and positive relationships. I wonder if we could speak for a moment about the situation that many, many educators find themselves in where something has already gone down. There has been a controversy, there has been a political issue, and a job has been lost or a change has been made that was not positive. And I get a lot of emails from people because I do interview coaching and things like that. I get emails from a lot of people who have gone through something like that where they just didn't get along with their supervisor or something happened.

[19:15]

How do you come back from that? A lot of people ask me, will I ever get a job again if I can't get a good reference from this person? And I don't think this person is going to give me a good reference because they just fired me. What do we do in that situation? I can share a brief story that is in our book. there was a school district leader who lost her job due to some dunk tank situations, some political things that she just couldn't maneuver.

[19:42]

And she wound up working at a deli counter in one of the local food stores of her town. And she couldn't find a job in her field of education any longer and worked at this deli counter, right, until she met someone there who recognized some of the writings that she did whether it be a blog or some articles that were published by her. And this person recognized her name. And lo and behold, that person at the deli counter, that school leader, went on into a field of publishing and working for a major publisher in the United States and is absolutely happy today. And we consider that prevailing, right? So even if we don't find firm footing back in a school district or as a school district superintendent or a school leader, There are other things out there and we really go through a process of having people tap into their talents and looking at the bigger picture of how we can still support education.

[20:40] SPEAKER_00:

You know, just piggybacking off of what Rick just said, it's definitely okay to move on. And I think that's the biggest thing that we have to come to terms with as educational professionals, because our heart is in it and it is in it for the kids and the right reasons. So when adversarial conditions get in the way, You know, we do kind of go on our brainstem and become emotional. So one way to, you know, kind of separate the emotions is to become an expert in your area, just to continually feed yourself in your content area or in your next kind of maybe dream or move within your career path so that when you are ready to step into those interviews, you are well-prepared. And then another piece of that being worried about your current coworkers that may be causing some of those adversarial conditions is also having a strong digital footprint.

[21:35]

So making sure that we're on blogs, that we're writing, that we're, you know, participating in online forums. And so that if anybody does go to Google us in our next step in life with our career, that it is something that is good that comes up because over time, No matter the situation that you're currently in, if you do absorb yourself as an expert, you know, ensure that your digital footprint's looking good, you can prevail. Especially when you have your positive aligned allies and, you know, you are... relying on those personal relationships to kind of get you through those tough times.

[22:13] SPEAKER_02:

Absolutely. And, you know, I think we always say in our profession, stay out of the newspaper, or if you're in the newspaper, make sure it's for something good. But the, you know, the reality is that, you know, I have many, many colleagues who have had things get in the newspaper for some kind of dumb reason. They didn't do anything wrong at all. But, you know, if you search their name, you're going to find some stupid news story about some controversy that occurred in their school that somebody's saying something negative about them. And Rebecca, I love what you said there about your digital footprint and making sure that when people Google you, that they are finding your writing, they're finding your professional activity, not some goofy controversy.

[22:51]

And if there's nothing about you online, anything that goes into print online is going to show up when people search for you, especially if you have a rather distinctive name. So yeah, thinking about that kind of comeback. The other thing that really stands out to me is just how strong a skill set principals have in the general marketplace. I have been contacted by people who say, okay, I'm looking for You know, my next thing, my last thing was a principalship. I'm really not sure I want my next thing to be a principalship. And I think it's just important to recognize that that's fine.

[23:26]

There is a ton that's out there that, you know, that people would love to have those skills, both in the public sector, the private sector, the nonprofit world, you know, as well as in, you know, in neighboring school districts that would be happy to give you a fresh start just with a little bit of background knowledge. So many, many people have been there, been down that road, have been in the dunk tank. I will say I've been in a dunk tank literally. We had one my very first year as a principal. The PTA said, okay, we got a new guy. We can talk him into anything.

[23:58]

So they said, we're going to get a dunk tank and we want you to be in it. And I said... Well, I said other duties as assigned, so I guess I will get in the dunk tank. The PTA president was kind enough to loan me a wetsuit because this is Seattle and it was cold.

[24:12]

But I will tell you, I would rather stay out of the dunk tank, but we can survive it as well. Been through the metaphorical dunk tank as well and really appreciate the collection of input and stories and tools that you've assembled for people. You know what? I just wanted to say we had a similar situation. A principal contacted us and, you know, am I going to be able to land on my feet? And, you know, will I be okay?

[24:39]

And we had to get past this barrier in our minds, right? And a barrier in this gentleman's mind was he felt like he needed to go back being a principal after being dumped so he could finish out his career and not lose his state retirement. And my response to him was, well, so you mean you want to maybe be miserable for the rest of your career before retirement? And he thought about that and he said, you know what? That kind of makes a little sense. I said, you know what?

[25:09]

We live each day not knowing if we're even going to be here that day. And you've got to go through life figuring out where your talents lie, where your passions lie, and doing things for the right reason. Absolutely.

[25:22] SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I just wanted to add too, I know it's a cliche, I may seem a little bit hokey, but I would say one of our strongest beliefs with the book as well is that we really believe that everything happens for a reason. I know Rick, myself, you know, we've been dunked, we've been in the dunk tank, but had we not, we wouldn't have grown from it. We wouldn't, you know, be in this position to help other people. So as rough as it sounds, if it does happen and when it does happen, it really does happen for a reason. And so, If we really stay focused on one, doing what's right and being forward thinking and really arming ourselves with this proactive paranoia and this idea of setting ourselves up for success, knowing that it's going to happen, I think it'll just keep us in line with knowing that everything does happen for a reason.

[26:16]

In the end, it will be okay.

[26:18] SPEAKER_02:

So the book is Escaping the School Leader's Dunk Tank, How to Prevail When Others Want to See You Drown. And you can learn more about the book at leadershipdunktank.com. Rebecca and Rick, if people want to find more about you and your work or get in touch with you online, where can they do that?

[26:35] SPEAKER_00:

Oh, that'd be fabulous. Yeah, you can get a hold of me on rebeccacota.com. And it also hyperlinks out to leadershipdunktank.com as well.

[26:44] SPEAKER_02:

Yep, and I'm at rickjetter.com, and that'll certainly lead you to the waters of the dunk tank. We hope people will even just go there to grab a free reflection guide e-book that was put together by us and published by Dave Burgess Consulting. Whether you're in a group or individual, it's really a cool tool, and we've had a ton of subscribers over the past three days. It's just the website's blowing up, and we hope you can join us. Well, Rebecca and Rick, thank you so much for joining me on Principal Center Radio.

[27:13]

Thank you.

[27:14] SPEAKER_01:

Justin, thanks so much. And now, Justin Bader on high-performance instructional leadership.

[27:20] SPEAKER_02:

So high-performance instructional leaders, what do you think about the school leaders dunk tank concept? This is something that I think we've all felt like we're in a little bit, at least at some point in our careers. And you may have been thoroughly dunked. You may have been dunked over and over again. And one thing I want to encourage you to do in addition to checking out Rick and Rebecca's book is to give yourself permission to deal with the emotional side of this. This is a profession where we are taught to kind of suppress our emotions, to not really be affected by our emotions and to just kind of stay steady.

[27:55]

But there are times, you know, when you have been dunked. That is a time when you need to collect your thoughts, when you need to give yourself a little bit of permission to heal, to deal with the impact that other people's actions have had on you. So if you've been through that kind of situation, you know what I mean. It's draining. It's impossible to make good decisions and do your best work when you've kind of been punched in the gut like that. So give yourself permission.

[28:22]

to mourn what's been lost you know if you have left a position or been forced to leave a position it's okay to mourn that loss if you had a good thing going if you loved the school the community that you were in and you're not there anymore it's okay to mourn that and to grieve that and go through that process as a part of moving on and as a part of figuring out your next step So again, the book is Escaping the School Leader's Dunk Tank, and you can find more information on Rebecca and Rick's work at leadershipdunktank.com.

[28:53] Announcer:

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