Education: A Manifesto for Change

[00:01] SPEAKER_00:

Welcome to Principal Center Radio, bringing you the best in professional practice.

[00:06] Announcer:

Here's your host, director of the Principal Center and champion of high performance instructional leadership, Justin Bader. Welcome everyone to Principal Center Radio.

[00:15] SPEAKER_02:

I'm your host, Justin Bader, and I'm honored to be joined once again on the program by Richard Gerver. Richard is an internationally renowned educator, public speaker, and change expert. The author of four books, he's a former teacher and principal, and currently advises governments, corporations, and other large organizations on leadership, change, and innovation. And we're here today to talk about his new book, A Manifesto for Change, a personal reflection on the future of education.

[00:43] Announcer:

And now, our feature presentation.

[00:46] SPEAKER_02:

So Richard, welcome back to Principal Center Radio.

[00:48] SPEAKER_01:

Thanks for having me back, Justin. It's a real pleasure to be here.

[00:51] SPEAKER_02:

So take us into the origin story of Education, a Manifesto for Change. What did you see happening in our profession? And what did you glean from some of the conversations you had with very high level societal leaders that prompted you to write this new book?

[01:05] SPEAKER_01:

When I started writing the book, which was in January 2018, it was exactly a decade from the time I left my job as a school principal and frontline education. You know, and as with all great anniversaries, you start to reflect and think. And I was spurred on in that thinking. I did an event in Edinburgh in Scotland just before 2018. And I met a young teacher who came up to me after an event with a well-thumbed copy of my first book. And she said, would you sign it for me?

[01:40]

And of course, I was honored. And then she said, I'm amazed. This is brilliant. I never thought I'd get the chance to meet you because people said you had nothing to do with education anymore. And so around all of that thinking, my reflection on my time as an educator, I became more and more clear that the adventures I had in the 10 years after leaving my job as a principal had resonated very powerfully with me. through my lens as a former teacher and school leader.

[02:11]

Every one of those experiences. And I suppose it's that thing, you know, you never grow out of being an educator. It's always at the heart of your thinking and in your blood. And as I started to recall on some of those experiences, the conversations, the places I'd worked, the number of times I thought to myself, I wish I'd known that when I was a teacher. And that's really where the frame of the book came from. It was a chance for me to sit down and to share with people the experiences I'd had and how that catalyzed my education brain, if you like, my teacher and school leader brain.

[02:46]

And so there were a series of events and stories and thoughts that I just wanted to share with people.

[02:52] SPEAKER_02:

Absolutely. And you've been, as you said, outside the education profession for a while, working in kind of the corporate and consulting and government and NGO world. Is that right?

[03:01] SPEAKER_01:

That's right. Yeah. Across all sorts of spectrum. I worked initially with government in the UK. That was...

[03:09]

under one of our former prime ministers, Tony Blair. And then, you know, it's just grown from there, really. The adventure's taken me. And by the way, I've always been in and around education.

[03:18] SPEAKER_02:

Well, let's talk about kind of the thesis of the manifesto that you've written. Take us into your main argument.

[03:25] SPEAKER_01:

There were a number of things. The first, I think, particularly since the explosion of social media, I've become frustrated by a very small percentage, but very powerful percentage of voices across social media who I've seen over the last decade, I think, kind of reconstitute very old and haggard arguments around education, you know, very similar in many ways to the larger political environment we've been living through in the last few years, where we've become increasingly polarised again. You know, so we've returned to these old conversations about traditional versus progressive and skills versus knowledge. And what I really wanted to do, first of all, was create a book that talked about the power and importance of collaboration, that

[04:16]

we bring all of our mind, our skills, our passion for education together, that we don't allow these very old and divisive arguments back into the debate about what the future of education should look like. We realize that virtually everyone we'll come across, whether they're parents, business leaders, or most importantly, educators, whether we agree fundamentally with some of what they think and do or not, we all are bound by an absolute belief that we want to do best by the children we're privileged enough to raise. care for, work with, or in the future, employ. And I suppose really what I wanted to do was set about writing a book which helped bring those different groups of people together

[05:07]

by sharing the experiences I'd seen across those sectors and, in particular, the commonalities. So, for example, looking at what world-class sports coaches do and how that relates to what world-class teaching looks like, looking at how leaders in organisations empower their staff to continue to innovate, create and make a difference, even under immense pressure. And to also look as objectively as possible at the kind of worlds that our children will be moving into, particular as future employees. And really trying to unpick what those skills and that knowledge looks like so that we as educators can lead a progressive conversation about what that future of schooling should look like.

[06:03] SPEAKER_02:

Absolutely. And seeing what skills are necessary in the workforce, what... companies are looking for is a big part of it. But I also appreciate your point about the need to have those conversations collaboratively, right?

[06:16]

That this is not something where we just need to have our own pendulum swings in the education profession and kind of ride those out. But we've seen a lot of pendulum swings, haven't we?

[06:26] SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And, you know, that's partly the problem, I think, that to a large extent, one of the things on reflection, the further away I get from the intense pressure of of frontline education is just how reactive the system has been for decades. You know, often driven by whether it's political agenda, policy shifts that are happening every two, three, four, five years, depending on an electoral cycle at local, state, national, global level. that we're constantly seeing these shifts, whereas most teachers in most classrooms, most school leaders want continuity and consistency and the opportunity to evolve at a graduated level an education system that's fit for the future for our kids. And again, you know, what I wanted to do was take that step back.

[07:21]

I've been incredibly fortunate that I've been out of that front line to have the opportunity to reflect, to think slightly bigger and hopefully to start to help to catalyse some more proactive questions about how we can launch into the future of education rather than constantly feeling like we're playing catch up to somebody else's agenda, which I think has led to not only massive levels of stress in the profession, but real skepticism, disillusion, you know, a de-professionalizing. And I think, again, for me, one of the things I've learned more than anything else in the last decade is just how brilliantly talented most of our educators are. not just in the classroom and in the education space, but having seen leaders in other sectors, what I've come to realize is the very best of us would make the greatest human leaders in any industry or organization.

[08:20]

And so again, what I really wanted to do was to help teachers re-engage and celebrate their enormous skills level and potential in hopefully stopping the momentum of the pendulum a little bit so we can focus on something more centralist, something that has a greater longevity, and actually, most importantly, something that schools and school leaders can feel in control of.

[08:47] SPEAKER_02:

Locating that authority with teachers who have that professional judgment, who have that expertise, who have that long track record of experience is such a big stabilizing force because, as you mentioned, political leaders who need to make their mark and district leaders and board members who need to make their mark often are the ones who are kicking off these pendulum swings. And it really does create this sense of chaos, especially for people who are kind of newer to the profession and don't know what to resist and what to go along with.

[09:16] SPEAKER_01:

I totally agree with you. And I think what's really important, again, you know, in all the years I've worked in education outside, is actually we need to trust our own eloquence and we need to trust our own instincts again as a profession. Because what I've seen are the schools and school systems which are the most stable and the most effective. And I mean that in terms of offering the best opportunities for our young people. are schools and systems where the profession has the confidence to eloquently put forward a constructive view for what education is, can be, and could be in the future. And again, I think it's one of the really important lessons I've learned over the last decade.

[10:01]

When I look at really exciting and dynamic organizations, they stick to a core vision and set of values and work hard to ensure that their people, their employees, have the confidence to know that they have the skill, knowledge, and ability to deliver on that primary vision. And I think sometimes that's the great challenge for us as educators and educational leaders is to have a very clear vision vision that we communicate with passion and continuity and consistency and that then we have done so in a way that truly empowers our teachers to drive the agenda for themselves and most importantly for their kids and I think that really is at the heart of this you know we can't

[10:53]

wave a magic wand and expect policy makers to suddenly change the way they operate although god it would be great if we could what we can do though is stand up for ourselves more in a constructive and positive way you know what we mustn't allow ourselves to get sucked into is complaining about the state of what we're being asked to do. Because nobody can get behind, if you like, a criticism. People can only get behind a really persuasive, constructive vision. And that's what I urge my colleagues to do, hopefully as they read through this book and then generate ideas and actions from it, is to believe in themselves more again. You know, I'm just a former elementary school teacher and school principal with a big mouth.

[11:45]

And what I've realized in the last decade is that the places I've been, the things I've done and the organizations I've worked with are not because I'm special or unique, but because I am a former teacher and I just trusted my skill and knowledge.

[12:01] SPEAKER_02:

And I think a funny thing happens when we put that vision out there, right? When we know what we're here to do, we have a plan for how to achieve that. We have specific improvements that we're working toward. When we communicate, I'm glad you mentioned the importance of communicating that vision to the public and not just keeping it to ourselves. But when we do that and put that vision out there, I've seen a funny thing happen. I'm curious if you've seen this too, that people tend to trust us and leave us alone.

[12:27]

Whereas if we don't put that out there, people say, well, here's what you need to do. You need to change this and that and the other thing, and everyone else has a plan for us. And they'll still have a plan for us if we do communicate, but largely they will defer to our judgment, our expertise, and our position as frontline educators if we are proactive about communicating that vision and letting the community know what we're up to and why.

[12:51] SPEAKER_01:

That's absolutely right. And I think that's underlined by two things that I've experienced. The first is the number of people I've met in the business and corporate sector when I'm working there, who are people who are, of course, parents or grandparents, who are deeply concerned with the policy direction of education. who instinctively trust teachers more than they do policymakers is huge. I would suggest that it's probably 99% of the people I meet outside of education instinctively trust educators far more than they do policymakers or the media who commentate on education. And interestingly enough, that's backed up in the U.K.,

[13:39]

Every year for the last 15 years, Ipsos MORI, the huge polling organisation, have carried out what they call the Veracity Index. And what it does is it looks at the most trusted and least trusted professions in the UK. So that's everything from, you know, bankers and journalists and politicians through to doctors, nurses, educators, people who work in the fire service, the military, etc., etc., across pretty much every spectrum of a society's existence. And what's really interesting is in the last 10 surveys, teachers have come second only to the medical profession every single year in that trust index.

[14:28]

And of course, interestingly, it won't surprise any of your listeners to know that the two groups languishing at the bottom over that same 10 years are journalists and politicians. So what is really important for us to remember as a profession is just how much people want to trust us and want us to take a lead of developing the narrative for the future of education. And like you say, you know, there will be people listening to this who are outstanding school leaders who will hopefully be nodding along because a large percentage of their success will be down to the fact that they've had the courage of their convictions and created a really powerful narrative for the whole of their community to understand why they're offering the education they are in the way they're offering it. And of course, what we find when that happens is our school communities get fair and square behind us.

[15:23]

And that's where the momentum comes from for making a real meaningful difference to our kids.

[15:28] SPEAKER_02:

And I'll add for anyone who's concerned about their local levy, that's what passes levies too, right? That's what gets the local community to support us and stand behind us and allow us to really pursue that vision. So what do you see as some of the most promising elements of those visions that educators are putting out there? What do you see as coming down the road in our profession?

[15:51] SPEAKER_01:

I think the first thing that's really important for us is to remember that despite, because one of the big debates and discussions, as it has been really for a decade or so now, is the impact of artificial intelligence, digital technologies in schools and education. And one of the things that's really interested me that I comment on a little bit in the book is having spent a lot of time in some of these new tech high-flying businesses, whether it be Microsoft or Google or Apple, is just how powerfully they are committed to the development of people first. One of the things that I think is really interesting, and they're at the, if you like, the epicenter of the digital explosion, the digital revolutions. And what they've all come to realize is that human development is the most important thing about the future for their organization.

[16:47]

So, for example, Google a few years ago carried out two pivotal pieces of research into their own success, Project Aristotle and Project Oxygen, both of which were exploring technology. what made the most successful teams at Google successful and what made the most successful leaders at Google successful. And by far and away, the most important feature of that success in that organization was the ability to create psychological safety for staff and colleagues so that they were in environments where learning was paramount, where people felt confident enough to take risks, to make mistakes, to collaborate, to be involved in projects where they weren't with colleagues who would judge them so that they would create the best they possibly could as learners, workers, and colleagues.

[17:43]

And I think for me, that really is the most important thing we need to remember moving forward in education. that despite all of the challenges that are going to face us, whether they be economic, organizational, technological, that that culture of creating psychological safety where we and our colleagues feel confident enough to collaborate, to take risks, to admit mistakes, misgivings and uncertainties, to share the really great stuff we're doing, always has been and will always be the most important characteristic within the education sector and success for our kids. So one of the things I really urge our colleagues to think about is not to feel daunted by what's to come and what they don't yet know, but to remember that really great education and great educators have behaved in the same way for pretty much the last 50 or so years.

[18:42]

And so for me, it's about reconnecting with those very human traits.

[18:47] SPEAKER_02:

Well, I'm glad you mentioned that long-term perspective, because every time I hear about a really great idea for standards-based instruction and talk about the assessment that's being embedded in some new approach, and I think, hey, this actually sounds a lot like Madeline Hunter in the 1980s and things that people were doing before Madeline Hunter, just because... That's our professional knowledge that we've been building on for decades. And one of the exciting things to me about our profession compared to, say, the technology sector is that we actually hold on to people. We have people, I don't know if this was your experience as a principal, but I had a number of teachers that I worked with who had been at the school for over 20 years.

[19:27]

and were not burnouts, were not waiting to retire, watching the clock people, but who were just amazing and who got better. They weren't that person who taught one year 25 times, they got better every single year and they wouldn't tolerate colleagues who weren't that way. They would fight to have that kind of professional culture where everyone is getting better.

[19:51] SPEAKER_01:

I think that's absolutely true. By the way, we need to remember just how skilled and wise those really experienced educators are. And we need to be very careful within modern culture because I think it is something, not within education, but you've almost intimated it in that wider cultural environment where we seem to think that people who have been in a job for a very long time somehow must automatically be stale or ready to move on or need to be shunted aside for the latest idea, the latest trick. Some of the greatest educators I've had the privilege of working with, and particularly when I was a principal like you, had been in the game for a very long time, 20, even 30 years. And their wisdom and their knowledge and their ability to stay calm under the incessant changes and policy stuff we've talked about was so powerful and their sheer love for their kids.

[20:45]

And by the way, I heard a phrase the other day, which I've got to share with you, because I think this really resonates to this point. And actually, it comes from an American filmmaker who I was working with last week called Rick Stevenson. who reminded me of an African proverb, and it's this, that every time an old person dies, a library burns down. And I just love that quote, because I think we need to remember that that knowledge and experience in some of our deeply experienced staff is something we need to capture value and hold on to.

[21:21] SPEAKER_02:

Absolutely. That kind of organizational memory that's not just the policies and procedures, but is the lived knowledge. And I think so much gets lost in schools. I hear about a lot of efforts to improve schools that have higher turnover. And they seem like patching a leak in a sinking ship when people are leaving. Every improvement effort can be undermined very, very quickly by turnover.

[21:51]

And one of the things that I'm, I think, most grateful for and attribute most of the success of my school too is just being able to hang on to terrific people over the long term. And obviously people are going to come and go, but if we can keep that to a minimum and build on what we have, we can achieve so much more than if we're turning over a third of our staff every year or half of our staff every two years because we just have to start from scratch. So I wanted to kind of shift gears a little bit and maybe get your opinion on accountability, because so much of what we have been talking about is related to professional judgment, professional respect, professional autonomy, and just the wisdom that frontline educators bring to the profession. But the accountability movement, which I think we're all kind of starting to get a little bit more realistic about, we kind of understand the limits of that,

[22:45]

But of course, many of those pieces are still in place, and we're still a very accountability-driven profession. What did you see happening as you have been outside the profession looking in for a while, as well as reflecting on your experience within the profession?

[22:58] SPEAKER_01:

I mean, there are two sides, two types of organization that I've worked with, both inside education and outside education. over the last decades. And I define them this way, that traditional organizations, which is still the vast majority, by the way, outside of education, operate under what I call a culture of assumed incompetence. In other words, they're organizations where the assumption is people have to be managed to do the best work they can do. So if you like, the default setting is people are intrinsically only capable of doing the best if they're managed to do it. which is a very traditional kind of Taylorist model, you know, built on the constant focus on efficiency being the main driver for success.

[23:46]

And I think there are distinct problems with that because, of course, it's human nature that if everything you do is managed, so, you know, you have managed targets, you have managed professional development, you have hyper-managed accountability, It is human nature to act and work towards those targets to ensure that you are achieving what you need to in order to be held to account. And of course, one of the great problems with that is it leads to a kind of culture of complete consensus where everybody has to rise at exactly the same rate at the same time in the same way, which, of course, is something As experienced educators, we would never expect of our students because of the differentiated levels of the kids in our care. But what it does is it inhibits the opportunity to innovate and to truly push the boundaries beyond expectation.

[24:41]

And it's why so many traditional businesses and industries have been so hampered in the last 20 years since the digital revolution has come along, since globalization has come along and changed the game. meaning that really only the most dynamic survive. And then so the counter of that is what I've seen in some of those really hyper dynamic organizations is something I call the assumption of excellence. So the flip there is that those organizations hire people they believe are brilliant and they get out of their way. So they don't manage them all in the same way. They only manage people who fail to deliver on outstanding, which actually creates a much more open-ended culture for people to go off, to be innovative, to be collaborative, to be entrepreneurial, if you like, and achieve over and above expectation.

[25:34]

But they will manage those people who fail to deliver. But the difference is that's not a consensus approach where everyone is raised to the same point at the same speed in the same way. It means that people can progress over and above. Now, what that does is create very dynamic cultures. However, you can't move from a culture of assumed incompetence to a culture of assumed excellence overnight because actually. Cultures of assumed excellence are really scary places to be.

[26:05]

And this is quite controversial. Because if you're used to working in an organization where you are managed to do your best work, you can always blame somebody higher in the hierarchy if you fail to deliver. You can always say, well, it was the management's fault. It was the policy's fault. It was somebody else. Whereas if you operate in a culture of assumed excellence, the spotlight is squarely on you.

[26:28]

So what that means within education is we have to make sure that our schools are environments where teachers have the self-confidence to raise their heads above the parapet and take responsibility and accountability for themselves. But if we do that, we can create what I think is a really powerful and very simple dialogue for the way we hold each other and ourselves to account, which is, you know, three questions that I've always asked, both as a principal and beyond that. within the education setting, which are evidence to me that you really know your children, their context, their background, and their needs. Then tell me how you've met those challenges by telling me about the learning design you've created. And then the third question is, now prove to me it's working and what you're doing to make it better.

[27:19]

Now, if we can get round to a point where those three questions become the cultural norm. We can actually evidence and prove that we can create our own systems of accountability that are far more predicated on that assumption of excellence, which gives us far greater space and freedom and bandwidth to do the things that we know are right for our kids in our contexts.

[27:43] SPEAKER_02:

You're speaking my language here, Richard, because I'm very much of the belief that what we're lacking in our profession is not accountability goals, not mandates, not plans, not data, not measurements of results, but what we're really lacking is evidence of practice. We just simply... don't communicate what we're doing in a way that makes practice transparent to everyone within the organization and allows us to communicate with people outside the organization. And I'd love to talk about your thoughts on this for district leaders.

[28:15]

I think as district leaders, too often we've managed through data without really knowing what was producing the data that we were collecting and then mandating changes, hopefully to get better results, But if you don't have evidence of practice, who knows what that's going to do? Who knows what results that's going to and what changes that's going to kick off?

[28:35] SPEAKER_01:

That's so, so vital in speaking to district leaders, because you have to understand the unique contexts of each of your education environments, because they're all going to be very different. They're all going to have very different challenges, which means the students are all going to be operating under very different needs. You can't deliver one curriculum that's suitable for all because of the variety and variation of those contexts. And therefore, you can't really create one catch-all assessment strategy. That's why I think those...

[29:08]

those personalization questions, which I would use at district level, which is you go into a school or a community of schools and you say, right, tell me about your students, their unique contexts, their strengths, their weaknesses, and about their needs. Then show me how you're delivering on your research and your understanding of the needs of those students. And finally, you evidence for me, you prove to me how you're meeting those needs becomes a very constructive, and powerful way of looking at it. You know, when you look at the world's most successful organizations and education jurisdictions, there is absolute clarity that one size does not fit all. A number of years ago, an interview I carried out with Eric Schmidt, who was the then executive chairman of Google, was really interesting.

[29:59]

He said to me, you know, Richard, when I look at the greatest challenges I've faced at Google over the last few years, it's actually been our success. because we stopped believing in our own ability to create unique things based on our vision. And as many of your listeners will know, Google's founding vision was to organize the world's information, make it accessible for everybody, and by so doing, diminish evil. And he said, you know, that was brilliant in the first few years, because ideas were bouncing around, like mapping the world in images so people could visit anywhere on the planet from their computer. to all the other innovations they've carried out. And he said the greatest challenges and disasters have come in our short history, where we've stopped believing in our own vision and acting on our own vision and values and starting to react and try and copy what other people are doing.

[30:50]

And he said the reasons when we did that, most of the time it resulted in disaster, was because we weren't working to our strengths, our context, our people and our visions. And he said, that's been my greatest challenge as the leader of Google, to keep us focused on what we know we do best based on who we are in our own context. And I think that should speak very loudly and importantly to district leaders in education. there is no such thing as one size fits all. I mean, look, in education terms globally, we have all become unnecessarily obsessed with Finland, for example, right? And we've all gone marching off to Helsinki to try and work out how they do what they do, bring them back to our context and implement the Finnish system, which is never going to work because Finland has designed its system based on its own context,

[31:46]

and a deep understanding of its own culture and society. It's a very flat socioeconomic environment. As a country, it is the size of the city of Sydney in Australia. There is only one type of school in Finland. There is only state education, no private schools, no church schools, no free schools, no charter schools. So it creates a very simple context.

[32:11]

The only piece of learning we should be taking from a country like Finland is that for the best part of 20 years, educators have driven and run policy in order to make sure that policy reflects the unique needs and contexts of the students in those schools.

[32:28] SPEAKER_02:

I will say, I think the one thing that the accountability movement has done for us that we really needed to hear, at least in the US, that we really needed to internalize is this idea that yes, all students can learn and deserve the opportunity to learn. And we, in some cases, need to get more ambitious about meeting their needs. Because I think you will find people who believe that everywhere, but you'll also find people who doubt and who say, well, you know, the average student is going to do average in my class and the poor student is going to fail. And, you know, only 65% of our students are going to graduate. That's just the way it is. Like we needed to be shaken out of that by the accountability movement, but the accountability movement did not actually give us the capacity to change it.

[33:13] SPEAKER_01:

No, and for a number of reasons. Firstly, I agree with you. One of the things that I was very hardcore about as a school principal was we are not going to operate inside an excuse culture. Because when I started my job as a principal, which was in a heavily socially deprived community in a very complex school, a lot of the culture within the community was, well, what do you expect? Because these kids go to this school in this community. And my argument to that has always been, if people genuinely believe in the destiny of socio demographics, for example, and that if kids are raised in struggling and tough communities, we can't help offer them hope, aspiration, dreams, and a sense that their lives can be lived, you know, to the maximum, then let's just shut all those schools and pour the money into prisons.

[34:10]

And I simply refuse to believe that culture. You know, we as educators need to have the highest expectations for every single one of our students. But those expectations can't be the same. We can't just say success looks like X solely and that every child has to achieve Y in order to demonstrate that success. We have to understand, I passionately believe, that each and every one of our students has unique gifts and talents. And it's our job to help them, first of all, to dream, by the way, because a lot of our kids live in communities where dreams are very narrow.

[34:47]

And then when we've broadened their sense of what they could be, where they could be, and their sense of value in the world, we have to help them build aspiration. And that's about converting a dream into something that's tangible. by building the rungs on the ladder to help them achieve that dream. And that's where the accountability comes from. And that's where our uncompromising position of excellence comes from. Because if a kid in a tough, challenging community wants to be, say, a medic or even an astronaut, then what we need to do is help them understand how study and learning can help them on those rungs on that ladder towards those dreams.

[35:25]

And we must be uncompromising about helping our young people reach those goals. But the first thing we have to do is help every child find a sense of value and purpose, because then I passionately believe those kids will want to achieve to the best of their ability. And that's where education becomes magical for us as educators.

[35:46] SPEAKER_02:

So the book is Education, A Manifesto for Change. Richard Gerver, thanks so much for joining me on Principal Center Radio. If people want to learn more about your work, your other books, and follow you online, where's the best place for them to find you?

[35:59] SPEAKER_01:

A number of places. First of all, there's my website, which is simply richardgerver.com. On Twitter, I'm at Richard Gerver. And the usual sources, there are a whole stack of videos of me speaking on YouTube, and my books should all be available at the usual online stores, both in hard copy and e-book as well.

[36:22] SPEAKER_02:

Well, Richard, it has been a pleasure to once again talk about practice, talk about the frontline work, but also think about the big picture. So thanks again for joining me once more on Principal Center Radio.

[36:32] SPEAKER_01:

It's been an absolute honor. Thank you for having me back, Justin.

[36:36] Announcer:

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