[00:01] Announcer:
Welcome to Principal Center Radio, helping you build capacity for instructional leadership. Here's your host, Director of the Principal Center, Dr. Justin Bader. Welcome everyone to Principal Center Radio.
[00:13] SPEAKER_01:
I'm your host, Justin Bader, and I'm honored to welcome back to the podcast for the third time, Shawn Glaze. A successful coach and educator for over 20 years, Sean is the founder of Great Results Team Building, where he helps inspire employees to become winning teammates. Sean is a nationally renowned speaker and the author of four books, including Staying Coachable, which we're here to talk about today.
[00:36] Announcer:
And now, our feature presentation.
[00:39] SPEAKER_01:
Sean, welcome back to Principal Center Radio.
[00:41] SPEAKER_00:
Thank you so much for having me, Justin. Really looking forward to sharing a little bit with your audience.
[00:44] SPEAKER_01:
Yeah, great to connect again. And I'm interested in this idea of staying coachable because I think we've all wanted other people to be coachable. But I have a feeling you're going to say that this is not just something for other people to think about, but something for ourselves to keep in mind as well. What does it mean to stay coachable and why is it so important?
[01:04] SPEAKER_00:
You know, I think it is so fantastic that you brought out that side of the book right off the bat, because I think you're so spot on. And that was absolutely the case for me specifically, my background in leadership. And I know, obviously, we're speaking with principals, administrators and school leaders. My experience as a leader was as a basketball coach, leading a basketball program instead of an entire school. But in both instances, I think as a young leader, you believe leadership is about making other people better and helping them to change. And I think for that to happen in any area, That begins with us looking in the mirror and us being willing to change.
[01:37]
And I think that staying coachable is the challenge because we all start off coachable. We've reached whatever level of competence and success because we were coachable, as we were willing to grow because we wanted to be better, because we were willing to change. But at some point, I think that we all find ourselves complacent to some extent. And then we start to look at other people and what they need to do. And we start to command and control. And that doesn't always work out well as a leader.
[02:01] SPEAKER_01:
Yeah, well, take us into a little bit of the origin story of staying coachable. So you've worked with teams for more than 20 years. You've worked with leaders in a wide variety of industries. What did you see happening out there in the world or in your own practice with your clients that prompted you to write this particular book?
[02:17] SPEAKER_00:
Well, you had me on and I was thrilled to be able to share my most recent book before staying coachable, which was The Ten Commandments of Winning Teammates. And one of those ten traits that I think all winning teammates have, whether it's in basketball or business or education or any industry, is staying coachable. They're interested in growing themselves in order to be a better teammate. And I saw that certainly as a coach with athletes. I saw that as a teacher in hallways with my peers and administrators at the schools that I worked at. And then as I began to go out and do, whether it was pre-planning professional development days and team building with schools, or whether it was working with companies in all kinds of different industries, whether it was banking or construction or medical across the board, and even in some of the conference keynote situations, You would have conversations with leaders who were dealing with that same issue, which is, you know, we're dealing with these changes.
[03:09]
We've got this type of progress we need to make with incorporating this new platform or with starting a new PFC or PLC or whatever that might be for that leader. And there's a little bit of friction. And what can we do? And I think that a lot of that starts with building a strong culture and making sure people know why they're there and people have built relationships and have expectations and standards, et cetera. But I think that even in the midst of that, that question of why do I need to change and what do I have to do and why is this important and why do I need to? I think that staying coachable is a skill that is across the board and very definitely for principals and administrators, something that they'll see their students and their school culture improve.
[03:50]
when their teachers take on some of the traits that are described in the book.
[03:54] SPEAKER_01:
So Sean, one of the things I think that's really interesting about Staying Coachable is the way you've set it up as a story. Take us into that story a little bit and tell us why you set up the lessons in Staying Coachable in story form.
[04:08] SPEAKER_00:
As any parent can probably relate to, I was, over the last few years, able to coach my son. And towards the end of his high school career, to be able to coach him, I found myself being frustrated with not just an athlete, but also with a family member that you wanted to see get better. And that led to me needing to get better. And I think that that's a situation or circumstance that leaders and families find themselves in consistently. And so I recognize that as a leader, If I was going to get someone to change far more effectively than maybe I did as an early coach when it was that command and control and let me be the one to tell you specifically. I became far better when I started asking questions and building a relationship and having a little bit more of a conversation.
[04:54]
And so the story really takes off when you have this father and son, they're on a climbing trip. The father has decided he's tried to do everything. Maybe they just need to get away and have a conversation in a different area. And so they find themselves climbing and hiking. And in the midst of their hike, they bump into a woman named Gail. And Gail is the wise sage whose husband had been a coach who was aware of not just her role in corporate, but in his role as a coach with athletes that people need to be coachable if they're going to be successful, if they're going to grow past that complacency where they stagnate at some point.
[05:26]
And through their conversations and ultimately through some letters that go back and forth between Gail and then the father and son characters, she shares a number of questions and then wisdom that kind of follows up with those questions and explains their significance. Because ultimately, and you opened up our conversation with this, reading this book and applying it and answering the questions is a whole lot like deodorant. Everybody thinks the person next to them needs it better than they do. And I think that sometimes we need to look at ourselves in the mirror and ask ourselves these questions before we then have those one-on-one conversations to inspire growth and enthusiasm and commitment as leaders with those people that we're leading and begin to ask them those questions. But I think it absolutely starts with Have I identified my clear answer to those four questions that Gail shares? Again, the book is going to be a valuable read because it does go a whole lot deeper than just the surface of the question itself.
[06:20]
I think there's four things that are part of that process for someone to stay coachable. Bill Gates, probably seven or eight years ago, and you probably have seen and are familiar with the TED Talk that he gave where he mentioned the fact that everybody needs a coach. whether it's a teacher, whether it's an athlete, whether it's a principal. The reason people listen to your podcast is because they want to get better. They need a coach. You know, Bill Gates talked about the fact that he had a coach to be better in bridge, ultimately just playing cards.
[06:46]
He wanted to have a coach who could be better. And I think that it's beyond that that you begin to see true improvement because having a coach doesn't make someone better. As a coach myself, I can tell you I had a number of athletes that didn't always get better even though I was available as a resource. Your principals and administrators would tell you, I'm sure, that not all of their teachers get better even though they're available as a resource. I think that staying coachable begins with asking yourself or as a coach, asking the person that you're working with four questions. One deals with establishing hunger.
[07:18]
You got to have a reason to change. You got to have something that you want. That first question is, what specifically do you want? What is it that we're trying to accomplish here together? Because if you can't clarify that, then nothing else is going to be important because you don't have that purpose. And I think after you ask yourself, What specifically do you want?
[07:35]
And you go a little bit more into the depth of where do you want to be and what does success look like for us or you individually? The next question deals with that ceiling of honesty, because I think that a lot of people look at the numbers and interpret their numbers the way that is comfortable for them instead of seeing themselves in a clear mirror. And I think, where are you now? What are the numbers that are important that are really going to determine your success? Sometimes we get distracted by numbers that are easy to collect rather than looking at what are those numbers for my classes for my kids, for my school, that are gonna really have an impact on me being able to measure something that needs to improve for us to be better as a school, for them to be better individually. And so once you have that hunger and once you've identified through your honesty where you actually are, there's gonna be a gap.
[08:22]
And I think it's in the awareness of that gap that the third step becomes possible because people aren't gonna appreciate and people aren't going to apply any type of advice or opportunities for growth If they don't have a purpose or a destination or a summit that they want to reach, if they don't realize that I'm not going to get there based upon the tools and understanding that I presently have, because a lot of people want to get better. They're not always willing to change. They want to get better the way that they're comfortable. Well, what they know, what they already do is kept them where they're at. And so once you identify that gap between where they want to be and where they are now, between their hunger and their honest appraisal of where they are. That's when the third question comes in, which deals with humility.
[09:05]
And for me specifically, and I think for a number of ambitious leaders, regardless of industry, this is the step that people stumble with is that idea of being humble enough to ask for help, to seek it out. And I think that your listeners probably all familiar with the saying that when the student is ready, the teacher will appear. I would disagree with that. I think in most cases, When the student is ready, they realize the teacher has been there waiting patiently for the student to be ready. It's not that the teacher appeared. They've probably been available if the student was actually interested in improvement.
[09:36]
And then the fourth question dealing with habits is once you identify that hunger and you establish where you are specifically in terms of honesty, and then you are humble enough to ask those questions that Gail shares with the father and son, terms of appreciation instead of annoyance, because it's easy to see people be annoyed when you share advice or opportunities for growth with them. And so I think that that idea of what do I need to appreciate, who do I need to appreciate in terms of opportunities for growth and mentorship, et cetera. And then the final one is, what are you going to do? Because awareness is one thing, but action is what creates results. And so creating habits and identifying what are those habits I have now that I need to stop that are going to clear the way for me to establish new ones? And then what is it I'm doing maybe even occasionally now that I need to be more consistent with?
[10:23]
What do I need to start doing that's going to create that momentum for myself first and for my team and my teachers and my students as well? And I think that those are the four parts of that process that regardless of industry, regardless of circumstance, that we can use to better ourselves and our team.
[10:40] SPEAKER_01:
Well, Sean, I don't know if you've ever encountered this with the clients that you've worked with, but I will say just occasionally in my experience, I have found both for myself and other people that I've been working with that often that humility and honesty piece is a hard one, right? We know what we want, we're hungry for it, but sometimes we feel like we're already there. And I think if we're in a kind of a supervisory role, it can be a big challenge to deal with people who think that they are already the greatest of all time, right? Yeah. You know, we think about some of the athletes who are regarded as some of the greatest of all time, and not always are they seen as great teammates, right? It can be difficult to be part of a team and to continue to contribute if you already think you are the best.
[11:20]
What are some things we can do to get around that obstacle, both for ourselves and for the people that we work with, if we're maybe not as humble as we should be and not seeing those areas for growth?
[11:30] SPEAKER_00:
Yeah, in the events that I have, and I love work with faculties in the fall oftentimes and kind of get them re-energized in terms of a day of team building or professional development. Because one of the things that I'll share with them is the importance of collaboration and being willing to not just share, but also to request information because that's how we get better. And I think one of the quotes that I would share in one of those events is confidence is knowing that you can help. Arrogance is thinking you don't need help. And I think all too often as leaders and teachers, we become arrogant. We isolate ourselves from the people that get help, not just us to be better, but our students and our days to be better because our experience with our kids and our classes and our coworkers become better when we become a little bit more aware of and honest about ourselves.
[12:11]
And I think that certainly honesty needs to come before humility. And I think oftentimes leaders can be a little blunt and brutally honest, and they focus on the brutal and not necessarily on the honest. I think that we can be a little bit more considerately honest by asking questions. And I think that that can be so much of a tool for leaders to use in those one-on-one conversations or even during a planning period and getting to know that teacher and building a relationship that allows you to not just talk about the hunger and what they're wanting to accomplish in their classrooms and their profession and as a school culture. But then more importantly, as you said, how do you open the door to those conversations about them being honest? And one of the things I think that causes talent to sometimes become toxic regardless of industry, is when people stop asking themselves a very powerful question, which is what part of my leadership led to that outcome?
[13:02]
Because it's really easy sometimes for us to say, I'm good. You guys need to change. But the world around me is not going to change until I do. And I need to be the catalyst for my own improvement by asking myself those questions that allow me to be honest. And if my students aren't achieving or my staff isn't achieving, I need to first and foremost look in that mirror and say, what part of my leadership has led to this result? Because if I'm in a position of leadership, that's an opportunity to influence others.
[13:27]
And if I continue doing what I've always done, I'm likely going to get the same result. So how can I, in that honest appraisal of the results that my behavior has provided, How can I then see the gap between where I want to be and what results I'm presently getting? And I think that's what opens the door for that third question and that third step in the process, which is the humility and being willing to look elsewhere for answers that we aren't going to always have.
[13:50] SPEAKER_01:
Well, I'm glad you're phrasing this around questions, Sean, because I feel like there's a risk whenever we think about helping people become more coachable that we start to think that that might just mean they should just accept whatever unsolicited criticism we give them. Yeah. You're not saying go around and criticize people and tell them they should be more coachable. You're saying, think about these questions that we can use to help people break through some of those barriers.
[14:12] SPEAKER_00:
Absolutely. And as a coach, and I'm sure as teachers and principals, administrators, your people, much like me, have been bombarded with those who may not be qualified to provide feedback, who are more than willing to share it. And I think the feedback in whatever area, and I've shared this with athletes, and I've shared this with groups at my events, Feedback is absolutely a gift. And when Uncle Bob gives you that gift that you're never going to use for the birthday, for the Christmas, and you know that you're never going to appreciate, you still say thank you. But you recognize it's coming from Uncle Bob, so I'm not going to value that as much as what Aunt Sarah, because Aunt Sarah is thoughtful and Aunt Sarah is amazing. And when she gives me a gift, It's really thoughtful and it comes from a place of value.
[14:52]
And I know I'm going to be able to use that. So I think absolutely having that ability to appraise where is that advice coming from and who is the mentor that I can seek out? I think sometimes, like you said, if the student is ready, it's not that the teacher will appear. Your podcast is one of those resources that people have as a teacher. And I think that if we're willing to seek out mentors, there is an abundance of opportunities for growth and information and connection available to us. We just need to actually see that gap between where we're at and where we want to be and begin to take action.
[15:24] SPEAKER_01:
I love that metaphor of feedback as a gift. And just like, you know, you might not wear every ugly sweater that's two sizes too small that you might get for your birthday as a kid. Sometimes we do have to kind of set things aside and smile and say thank you. And other times we find great value in those gifts, whether we're talking about birthday presents or feedback. I love that metaphor. I wonder if we could talk a little bit about some of the distinctions and the similarities between sports and the professional world when it comes to coaching, because we use coaching a little bit metaphorically when it comes to being someone's supervisor.
[15:57]
It is a little bit different from being an athletic coach for teenagers or a professional athletic coach, but at the same time, there are a lot of parallels. Since you work in both worlds, What do you see as some of the close parallels as well as the differences between being an athletic coach and being a manager or a supervisor?
[16:15] SPEAKER_00:
Well, I would argue passionately that there are a tremendous number of similarities in terms of leadership, whether it is in athletics or education or business, because ultimately it is me needing to be better so we can be better. And if I will take personal responsibility for the team's results, that makes me a better teammate, but it makes me a better leader as well. But I then realized that it's not just about me being better, but me being good enough that I can help you to be better because my results as an athletic coach were based upon how well somebody else performed on the court. I never scored a basket.
[16:48] SPEAKER_01:
I never pulled down a rebound, but... And I don't teach a thing as a principal, right? I don't teach a single lesson.
[16:52] SPEAKER_00:
Absolutely. But I can help to grow my people and help to inspire them through some of hopefully the relationships... the idea of helping them be ambitious, helping them to see what you see in terms of possibilities and to set that destination, that purpose. This is why we're here.
[17:09]
There's not going to be any negotiation about here's what we're going to accomplish. This is the path we're going to show up with. This is how we're going to support each other. And I think that creating that culture is a huge part of the success. It's far less about strategy than it is about the culture that you're building in terms of those expectations and the relationships and the purpose that you're defining for your people. But Specifically, the idea of coaching a group of athletes versus coaching a group of teachers or whatever industry that might be for the coworkers in your office, I think is very similar in that we want to make sure that we have defined a compelling common goal.
[17:41]
You're not here just for you. And yeah, you're going to be here for you, but it's also for the betterment of this cause. If you can define a mission, that mission is going to be so powerful in helping to inspire and encourage people to go beyond where they might otherwise. And then let them feel appreciated and let them feel seen for the efforts that they're giving. I think coming out of the last 18 months and what teachers have been asked to do in remote situations and virtual situations and blended situations, it's something that I think goes a very long way for people to feel seen. And for principals and administrators to make sure that they acknowledge the efforts and the difficulties and the challenges that people have tried to overcome.
[18:18]
Because I don't mind getting better. I don't mind giving effort. I don't mind continuing to grow and to progress and change and to adopt this new whatever. If I feel like it's going to have a positive impact on what I care about. And if I feel like people acknowledge the effort that I'm making and appreciate and let me feel seen for having done those things.
[18:36] SPEAKER_01:
Well, Sean, one thing I appreciate as kind of a through line in your work is this idea of looking in the mirror with every word that comes out of our mouths, of not letting anything come out of our mouths that doesn't also come back in our ears and affect our own leadership. So I appreciate the modeling and the reflective practice that's implied there, that we have to not only get other people to do the right thing, but we have to be willing to be the first to do that honest reflection and make those commitments to change if we want other people to do the same.
[19:03] SPEAKER_00:
Yeah, and that's what you want your faculty to do as a principal or administrator is to recognize the impact that their behaviors, that their words, that their body language, that their attitude is having upon their classroom and ultimately the kids in the hallways. You know, it's the whole Abraham Maslow, what's necessary to change a person is their awareness of themselves. We'll take that moment to reflect upon what part of my leadership is leading to this outcome, this result. We become a part of the solution when we become a little bit more aware of and intentional about our efforts.
[19:31] SPEAKER_01:
So the book is Staying Coachable, a story with four questions to help you thrive and change, keep climbing, and enjoy relentless improvement. John, if people want to get a hold of the book or get in touch with you and learn more about working together, what are some of the best places for them to go?
[19:46] SPEAKER_00:
I appreciate you asking. The book is available, oddly enough, at stayingcoachable.com. You can reach me on my business website for events and programs at any time during the year to help to inspire and encourage your faculty and teachers to be winning teammates and to collaborate a little bit more effectively at GreatResultsTeamBuilding.com. And I believe that you're going to have links there as well.
[20:06]
One thing that I would encourage all the principals, administrators listening is I have a toolbox of teamwork resources that you can use whether it's with your faculty if you coach little league if you do anything with any type of group you want them to be a more effective and connected team you can go to toolboxstuff.com and on that site you can plug in your name and email that'll give you access to about 50 or 60 different free resources you can download and use immediately with your staff with your team to help them to be a little bit better and more effective together
[20:37] SPEAKER_01:
Well, Sean, thank you so much for joining me again on Principal Center Radio. It's been a pleasure. Thanks so much for having me, Justin.
[20:42] Announcer:
Thanks for listening to Principal Center Radio. For more great episodes, subscribe on our website at principalcenter.com slash radio.
