Equitable Grading Through the Eyes of Teachers

[00:01] Announcer:

Welcome to Principal Center Radio, helping you build capacity for instructional leadership. Here's your host, director of the Principal Center, Dr. Justin Bader. Welcome everyone to Principal Center Radio.

[00:13] SPEAKER_00:

I'm your host, Justin Bader, and I'm honored to be joined today by Mr. Adam Stolzer. Adam is principal of Burwell Junior Senior High School in Burwell, Nebraska, currently in his second year. And he has been extraordinarily intentional about his approach to instructional leadership, which we're here to talk about today.

[00:31] Announcer:

And now, our feature presentation.

[00:34] SPEAKER_00:

Adam, welcome to Principal Center Radio.

[00:36] SPEAKER_01:

Thanks, Justin. I've been a fan of listening to your work and learning from you and other guests on the podcast, so it's very humbling and an honor to be on with you today and discuss instructional leadership.

[00:46] SPEAKER_00:

Well, likewise, I'm honored to speak with you as someone who thinks a lot about classroom walkthroughs and getting into classrooms and helping teachers grow. I'm very excited to talk to you about what you're doing and what your predecessor in the role, now your superintendent, has done and how you have started your career. as an administrator on the right foot take us back to the time when you were in the classroom and looking uh to move into the principalship and then into your first year on the job as a principal to tell us a little bit about how you approached that journey i taught for seven years was high school math teacher in the building that i'm the principal in and for the beginning part of my career the first six years the only time administration came into my room was

[01:30] SPEAKER_01:

the two times a year for the formal observation. And when they needed something, it wasn't a consistent basis. If you wanted administration, you went to the office. And as I started taking my administration classes and starting to go down the path of being an administrator, I just felt that that wasn't what was best for kids and what was best for staff. Like you need to interact with these people. We're in a people business, we're in a serving business.

[01:53]

And it's all about, we want our students to grow, but we want staff to grow too. and so i wanted to go down that path got into your stuff online read your book did the instructional leadership challenge all of that and then in my seventh year my final year of teaching mr maynard came as our principal and he was what i wanted he was what i wanted to be of the in classrooms providing feedback catching you doing good and growing the good and now we've held that consistent now for three years with one year as him and in my second year with me. and just about growing and catching good and celebrating the amazing things that teachers and students do on a day-to-day basis.

[02:33] SPEAKER_00:

And it's easy to forget how rare that still is, right? I've been in this work for about 10 years, helping administrators get into classrooms frequently, and yet most teachers' experience is just what you described for the first six years of your career, just kind of barely seeing administrators other than in the office. You've got your formal observations, your evaluation for the year, but that's typically it. And when I talk with teachers, especially on social media, about administrators getting into classrooms, one of their first reactions is, no, why would I want more of that? I don't like that. And you saw that as a teacher, as a positive experience when now your superintendent, Mr. Maynard, got into your classroom.

[03:13]

You saw that as a form of support. what was it that made it supportive and not a gotcha, not a hassle, not micromanagement? Because certainly there is the perception out there that administrators just cause trouble when they get into classrooms. What made it different for you? It's a great question.

[03:31] SPEAKER_01:

It's all about catching the good and letting me know, I mean, if you're only in the classrooms during my formal observation, that's less than 1% of the time that I teach and providing that genuine specific feedback. And inherently as humans, as educators, we want that. Am I doing the right thing? Is what I'm doing making a difference? Do you see what we just learned at staff development? Do you see that I'm implementing that?

[03:56]

Or could I play a movie every single day and you have no idea what's going on? So that genuine specific feedback for me was, You know, I was a confident teacher, but then seeing someone else back that up supported me even more. And then maybe now it's like I can try another thing. Maybe that's another pat on the back. Maybe that's another way to reach students. But it was just so specific.

[04:20]

It was genuine and it wasn't. Oh, I didn't see you do this today. It was, I saw you do these three things and those are amazing. And when you hear good things and you see the praise, you start to do that more. It's, you know, it goes all the way back to, if you want everybody to line up in a straight line, don't yell at the three kids doing the wrong thing. Talk about the kids doing the correct behavior of that.

[04:42]

And it was that same thing of just letting our teachers know and giving them that support that I see what you're doing is making a difference and is great in building off of that consistently.

[04:52] SPEAKER_00:

So well said, because I think what you're talking about is commenting on evidence of good practice, right? Things that you want more of, you're commenting on what you are actually seeing. And I think too often when people go wrong with their feedback, they're commenting on, as you said, what they didn't see, what was missing, what wasn't happening. And there's an infinite number of things that are not happening at any given time, right? Whatever we're doing in the classroom, we're also not doing a million other things. And nobody is capable of doing everything that they could possibly be criticized for.

[05:26]

So I think any approach that starts with that criticism of what they perceive to be missing, it's going to not have the impact that starting with what you actually see, starting with the evidence of practice. And kind of building on that. Now, I think one of the reasons that people are often more negative in their approach is because they do want to see people changing their practice. They do want to see people doing things that maybe they're not doing. Talk to us about how you think about those things that you want to see but aren't seeing currently, aren't seeing yet. How do you start to tease that out of people?

[06:01]

How do you start to get people to move in the direction you want them to move if they're not? We can reinforce what we are seeing, but if it's not there, how are you thinking about those new practices that you want people to implement, even if you're not seeing them at all?

[06:12] SPEAKER_01:

First and foremost, you have to get that level of trust and comfort. They need to be comfortable with you in their classroom. I can remember the first couple of times I saw it. What do you want? What do you need? It stopped class.

[06:24]

Everybody is turning and looking at what's going on. Then once that level of comfort comes, you walk into a classroom and half the probably more than half of the kids don't even know you're there. The teacher may not even know you're there. And that's we have to have that first. And then you have to be honest with the positive feedback that you are going, that it is genuine, it is specific, it is targeted directly to them. And then I think you can start to have those conversations as you have follow up.

[06:54]

If you communicate with those teachers like, hey, I really liked what I saw in class, maybe you could look at this angle. And it's those personal interactions face to face. So once you have that level of trust, comfort, I think you can start to integrate that. And again, I personally feel I have it. I think our staff has that where they want that feedback. Yes, you've given me good, but now where can I grow?

[07:18]

How can I enhance what I'm doing? And so we've had that where, you know, relating it back to our Marzano framework that these are some areas that we want to target. We're going to look for them specifically, and then here's how we can grow them, relate them to professional development that we've had, or that we like we noticed that we need to have. So just being everything relating back to our framework and what we talk about and do on a daily basis.

[07:44] SPEAKER_00:

Love that because the daily basis piece of that, I think, is so easy to overlook when we do evaluations annually, right? When we set goals at the beginning of the year, do a couple of formal observations, and then do a final evaluation at the end of the year. If that is all that we're doing with the evaluation criteria, whether that's you know, Marzano or Danielson or some, you know, estate framework or something developed in-house. If that's our only time engaging with those practices that are specified in that framework, we're not really going to be very familiar with them. So you're saying these are kind of a constant touchstone for your staff in faculty meetings and in conversations and so on?

[08:20] SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it's like constant feedback.

[08:23] SPEAKER_00:

So

[08:23] SPEAKER_01:

obviously i do informal walkthroughs where i don't have a piece of paper with me i don't have my computer i'm just popping into classrooms and they're like 30 second little snapshots of just me taking mental notes being present available and then we have a paper form because i still feel and i'm only 30 31 but like a handwritten note goes a long way it doesn't all have to be on a computer so we have a handwritten note walkthrough we have a computer one And yes, it is what is going on spontaneous right now, but it's also circling back to what are some Marzano elements that we identified at the beginning of the year that we need to work on based off of last year's walkthrough data and just perceptual knowledge of talking to staff of what we need to do. So yes, it's in the moment, what's going on, one to three minutes, three to five minutes.

[09:13]

whatever it may be, but we are circling back. So it's a constant conversation, not just a, okay, we're going to talk about it this month at PD. We're not going to talk about it for a week and then we're going to go, or we're not going to look for those opportunities of growth. It's a constant cycle of constant conversation.

[09:28] SPEAKER_00:

Love it. And how often are you getting into classrooms between the, as you said, the handwritten and the computer-based?

[09:34] SPEAKER_01:

It's my goal to get into classrooms every day. Maybe not every single classroom every day, but I certainly try to get into every classroom every day. At a school my size, it's very doable to do that. We have 125 kids, and so I have about 20 teachers where I can get into every class every day. But if not, it's at least four or five classes a day. But for sure, Once a week, there is specific feedback documentation that I've been in your classroom.

[10:03]

We're looking for it and we're using that as evidence so that, you know, as we've talked about the evaluations, it's not just when I come and formally observe you. It's a whole process that takes into the fact these walkthroughs, these mental notes, these conversations. Yes, when I was in there for the full class period. But it's a whole picture, a whole process. that you've had as a teacher, not just that less than 1% of time when I came and formally observed you.

[10:29] SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And I think that speaks directly to the trust issue that you mentioned being so crucial. You know, when people know that, you know, them, they know that you have seen them in a variety of contexts on a variety of occasions. It's not just one or two high stakes observations, the trust level in, in, your judgments, I think just goes through the roof, right? Like people know you're not catching them on their one bad day. You're not out to get them.

[10:52]

You really have an up close and personal sense of their practice. You've talked with them about it dozens of times. And that leads to, I think inevitably leads to better decisions when it comes to the evaluation process, professional development. Talk to us a little bit about what you do with that information, like all the different leadership actions or kind of outputs of that information that you get from being in classrooms.

[11:15] SPEAKER_01:

At the beginning of this year, we took all our information from last and what elements we saw, the engagement level of students that we tracked, how students work. Was it a lot of lecture? I mean, we learned here that we had either a lot of lecture or a lot of individual work. It wasn't so much team or group work or partner work. So that was an area of how can we get students talking more? We have data that shows it's a lot of whole class instruction or individual times.

[11:45]

How can we get students talking and engaged more? And naturally, in elementary, you kind of have that shift where there's more center stations for elementary at the high school level. No. So that was a big thing for us. How can we increase student engagement? And that led to the talk of compliance versus engagement, you know, Yeah, they're all sitting there taking notes, but are they engaged or are they just complying with what you want?

[12:08]

So last year we had 10 Marzano elements that we were really looking for. But having that data, we narrowed it down to three of where were we low in? But also as a staff, what do you value being something that we need to look for? And so we've used that. And that's also been a way to plan our professional development outside those three that we're looking on. Are there some other areas that we need to specifically target this as a whole system and go from there?

[12:34]

But again, then it leads to those individual goals or those individual conversations with teachers of this is an area that you can improve. This is an area that we can work on together, that I can support you in that whole continuous cycle, that it's not just one school year, move to the next. It's you as you go throughout your career. It's that continuous process.

[12:54] SPEAKER_00:

forward movement. That to me is one of the most important things about getting into classrooms. You know, people always think about the feedback to the individual teacher, but they don't necessarily think about everything else you do as a leader. You know, all of the different decisions you make, the professional development, the focus, you know, as you said, narrowing it down from however many criteria are in Marzano to begin with, to the 10, to the three that are really going to be the most high leverage. Like you have that perspective because You're in classrooms talking with people about their growth opportunities. Let's talk if we could a little bit about visibility.

[13:25]

I was talking with an educator friend of mine who said their principal never leaves the office. The door is always closed. There are actually two sets of doors. You cannot get to the principal. You never see the principal. It's kind of a Wizard of Oz kind of scenario.

[13:38]

How have you approached visibility and accessibility as a principal?

[13:43] SPEAKER_01:

I think that is the most important thing that you can be in as you gain trust and knowing what's going on in your building. And last year, I felt that I was good at it, but as I reflected and wanted to evolve going into my second year, I took the opportunity to challenge myself of having a mobile office. And I still use my office. I still have it. But my goal is to be out in the hallways more so that I can have those impromptu conversations where a teacher is walking to the copy room. Oh, hey, why I have you here.

[14:12]

This was on my mind. Can I talk to you about that? You interact with students more as they are going from to the library to get a book or the bathroom or their locker. You see that and naturally kids are not in the hall as much when they know their principal is out there. So some behavioral issues that way but it's been a great thing for me to balance the management tasks of a principal and a leadership task of a principal i felt last year it was always or like i was doing one or i was doing the other where this i feel that i can simultaneously do that and i love when i'm you know working by a section of four classrooms i hear something like i want to go see that in person i want to do that as opposed to this is my schedule time that i've put away for walkthroughs like one to three I'm going to go do walkthroughs. Now what I might be out there from, okay, I'm out there from eight to lunch and I got 20 minutes here.

[15:03]

I got 10 minutes there. I got 30 minutes there. I can go do those things as opposed to that dedicated time. Because as you know, and listeners know, sometimes you might block off that time and then something comes across your desk or comes to your office that now that one to three isn't yours. Like you thought it was at eight o'clock in the morning or the night before when you're scheduling and writing down those things. So the mobile office has been an amazing opportunity for me to grow.

[15:28] SPEAKER_00:

Love it. So you're able to be a little bit more spontaneous about when specifically you get into classrooms and you're using what you see and hear from being in the hallway to kind of guide that. Like sometimes you might hear something going on in a particular classroom and stop in just based on what they're doing.

[15:42] SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. I mean, just hearing that and seeing the instruction or just being there involved in it in your school, you know what's going on. So I can go see those things as opposed to I may say I'm going out from one to three and four teachers are given a test, you know, or this teacher's on plan or this is going on. And so I can have that time where I do still structure it like there are times where I'm like, OK, it's Wednesday. I have not been very good on Monday and Tuesday about getting into classrooms. Wednesday, I have to make time for it.

[16:12]

And no matter what happens, I'll do work at home or in the morning or whatever. But it has allowed me just to be more spontaneous and do a little bit more because I felt like, too, I can go see more beginning of classes. I can go see more end of classes as opposed to if you just go one to three, it might just be like two teachers beginning of class. Then I saw the middle of these. So I've been able to spread out and get more of a variety of times as opposed to consistently getting more. you know, just this chunk of time throughout.

[16:42] SPEAKER_00:

It's interesting. I feel like a lot of people downplay the value of seeing the beginning and end of class. They want to come during the perfect middle part where they can see perfectly typical instruction and not have any transition time, not see the beginning and end. And I feel like that variety is so valuable to see how is the beginning of class being used? What are students doing at the end of class? You just learn so much from those times that are easy to overlook.

[17:08]

And as you said, when you're out there in the hallway, you're already there. You can pop in quickly. at the beginning of class or you know if you have to supervise between classes as most administrators do you know you can stay right to the end of class and pop out into the hallway talk to us a little bit about some of the reactions from staff because as you said the first time around people wonder like what's wrong why are you here do you need something you know are you here for a student is somebody getting signed out what's what's going on um how have staff gotten used to and responded over time as you've continued to get into classrooms? Because one of the things that I think a lot of people worry about is like people might tolerate my visits once or twice because they expect me to do one or two walkthroughs a year. But on the 10th or the 15th time, is it more of the same? How do people start to engage with you differently as you come back over and over?

[17:57]

They see this as not just a one-time thing.

[18:00] SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I think the big thing for us there was the consistency of Mr. Maynard being in his principal role for the year and then me where he had that established like this is an expectation. And then for me, my first year was, is he going to follow this? Is he going to be consistent or is it going to be another year of change? And we kept it consistent because I believed in it and it was an expectation. And now it's become that I truly feel our staff expects it.

[18:26]

And once it we've had staff say that I don't have a problem when you come in. Just tell me when you want to come in and do the formal observation, because I'm used to you being in here providing feedback anyway. So when you come do the formal sitting here for a full class period, it doesn't make a difference to me. You pick where, you know, there used to be the anxiety or the stress of all the administrators come into my room or I think our staff is so used to it. For now being two and a half years of this is the expectation where that anxiety is down. Our kids' anxiety goes down.

[18:57]

Like what's the principal want? Like the principal's out here doing something. And there is times where it's like, oh, you know, you haven't been in my room for a while or, hey, I haven't seen you, you know, or this and just that. So I just think it's come to a point where it's a common practice and expectation now. New teachers, it is a little fun. You know, we've had two new teachers since I've been on where Yes, they know it's coming, but there's a little bit of, oh, yeah, you are going to come in every day.

[19:24]

You're not just talking about it. But, you know, new teachers are kind of used to that with the student teaching process and always having someone in the room. But I do think it kind of catches them a little off guard. Like, oh, yeah, you really do mean like you're going to be in here multiple times in a week.

[19:39] SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I feel like a lot of people expect it to be more of a high stakes process that they don't want to do over and over again. But it really, like you said, it becomes a low stakes process when everything is not hinging on just one or two visits, one or two observations. The pressure goes down because it's not all hinging on this couple. Let's talk, if we could, about the other work process. That is not teacher feedback. You know, the work that keeps us at our computers, the work that is involved in keeping up with all the emails that come in and so much has kind of been funneled to emails these days that might've come in in different formats.

[20:15]

I personally found that there was always good reason to be at my computer. Like there was never not a need to get back to people electronically. And I've been out of the principalship for well over a decade now. I'm curious, what has been your experience with that either kind of office-y work or perhaps laptop work that you're able to do in the hallway? What role does that play in your day-to-day?

[20:38] SPEAKER_01:

It's definitely a part of it. It's definitely an important part of it. That's why I do like being in the hallway, not in the office, where I can have my computer up. I can respond to an email quickly. I can do that. And again, we're a small school.

[20:50]

I mean, my staff knows if they want to get ahold of me to text me or call me, like that's when I know that if it can wait multiple hours, email me. If it is something that you need me text or call, but I also value my time before school. I am a morning person. I like to get here, you know, fairly early before staff do. So I can kind of get some of those management piece to it. I can get my day where I can get some things out of the way so that I'm ready to go for students and staff right away.

[21:15]

But definitely there's just that balance of that. You have to have that, but First and foremost, this is a people business and people come first. And if it happens to do later in the evening or at home, that's okay. But I do feel that the hallway has allowed me to have those breaks where, okay, I can work for an hour and I can go do this. I can work for 30 minutes. I can respond to this email.

[21:38]

All of those things, it just has made a more natural, easy flow. And I can take things as they come as opposed to letting them pile up. for so long like oh i'm out i'm out doing leadership and walking the halls and being in classes for two or three hours then i come back and there's two or three hours i missed whereas opposed to when i have it all together i can take it as it comes and i do have that rule like if it takes five minutes or less just do it now get it out of the way don't pile it up i think that's been a big thing of if you can get it done now and it's five minutes or less do it and get it done with so you don't have to worry about it and then you can tackle the next thing

[22:14] SPEAKER_00:

Any particular tips on a mobile cart or kind of what goes on that cart? Because I personally made, I think, good use of my laptop, good use of my iPad, but never had a cart. I had kind of a two-story building, a lot of distance to cover. Any recommendations as far as how people might set up something like that?

[22:28] SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I mean, mine's pretty simple. Actually, gracious, I had one. It wasn't quite tall enough. And then another teacher had a flexible seating room where they had one that was a little bit taller. So we traded on that. That's great.

[22:40]

But I keep my phone, my computer, and then I got like a little – pencil pen cart that I put down. It was not a very expensive one. It was just, you know, around 80 bucks off of Amazon and that, but I think less is more. I mean, I have my sticky notes. I have just a couple of things that I can write notes on the walkthrough forms, but just something that, you know, especially now everything's on the computer, you know, we don't have binders and all these papers and files. If I do need that, I go to my office and all of that.

[23:08]

So I've even seen people who have just old library cards that don't get used anymore, that you don't use to check out for the library. They get the TV in the classroom and those. I think it's just a way as we move into this 2024 world of instructional leadership where accessibility and availability and challenging yourself to try something new, to be there, to serve your staff on a consistent basis. I mean, I kind of look at it like when you go to a baseball game, you don't want to get up to go get a hot dog. You want the hot dog guy to come to you. And so can you do that to serve people in your school where don't come see me?

[23:43]

Like, I'm going to just come out and see you and catch me as I walk by.

[23:46] SPEAKER_00:

I love it. It was an idea that I will say I was a little bit skeptical of the first couple of times I heard about it, but the more I hear people finding success with that and just being out there, being accessible, and yet not away from the tools that you need to do various kinds of work. I think I'm a convert to the cart idea. Well, Adam, I just have to say it is tremendous to see the success you've had with this, with getting into classrooms, with being visible. What would you say to anybody who is skeptical of their own ability to do this, either because they have a larger school, a larger staff, maybe they stay pretty busy with discipline, maybe they are an assistant principal who's not the one at the top of the organization setting the pace, maybe they feel like that might...

[24:26]

challenge some, some existing practices. Maybe, you know, you mentioned your predecessor was very much about getting into classrooms and is now your superintendent. What would you say to someone who is feeling the wind is not at their back? How would you advise them to proceed if they like what you're saying, but they're not sure they're in a position to pull it off?

[24:45] SPEAKER_01:

So two things I think are the most important is one, you have to prioritize it as it being, we're in a people business and we need to support people. We need to grow people. but also find a mentor, a colleague that will support you in your efforts to prioritize it. That's what made it so easy for me is my mentor, Mr. Maynard, help put that wind behind my back and give me the confidence and, you know, continue to coach me through that. So have some, especially if you're in a building where it is not common practice of find that professional connection where you can have somebody who is pumping you up and then prioritize it.

[25:28]

People are our most valuable asset and we need to protect that. We need to grow that. And if you want to know what's going on in your building, just go out and be in it. If you want to know about the janitor, if you want to know about lunch, if you want to know about behaviors, if you want to know about teaching, you got to go live it and breathe it and be in it. So, To me, it has been the thing that I have to prioritize the most. It's the thing I want to prioritize the most.

[25:51]

Paperwork will always be there. Reports will always be there. Yes, discipline is at times going to take you away. But the people that you work with, you've got to take care of. You've got to support. And we're all about kids.

[26:06]

We're all about teachers. And we've got to be where they are to help them. And having that person that can pat you on the back and help you out is going to go a long way in making that a priority that you can do every single day.

[26:17] SPEAKER_00:

Well, Adam, thank you so much for sharing from your experience and your insights into getting into classrooms. If you had one starting point recommendation, what first action would you advise people to take just to do something to get going?

[26:33] SPEAKER_01:

Schedule time. And have a plan. If they haven't seen your cards of scheduling to get into classrooms, that's a great way to start. But do put it on a calendar. Put it on paper. I'm a big legal pad guy where I write my daily notes or agenda like write down that you're going to get in classrooms.

[26:52]

And I was at a conference earlier this year. And, you know, they say whatever is the one thing that you want to get done that day. Write it at the top, highlight it, sharpie, circle, star, like make it the focal point of whatever you use to organize. And that'll be the one thing that you get done. So make it your focal point when you wake up that that's what you want to do that day. That's what you need to do that day.

[27:15]

And then just dive in headfirst. You can't tiptoe into it. You got to just dive in headfirst, go for it. And then it's going to become common craft.

[27:22] SPEAKER_00:

Adam Stolzer, thank you so much for joining me on Principal Center Radio. It's been a real pleasure.

[27:26] SPEAKER_01:

Thank you, Justin. Humbling and just a true honor. So thank you again.

[27:30] Announcer:

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