The School Leader: Surviving & Thriving

[00:01] Announcer:

Welcome to Principal Center Radio, helping you build capacity for instructional leadership. Here's your host, Director of the Principal Center, Dr. Justin Bader. Welcome, everyone, to Principal Center Radio.

[00:13] SPEAKER_00:

I'm your host, Justin Bader, and I'm honored to be joined today by Andrew Murata. Andrew is a speaker, professional developer, and high school principal, and he is the author of The School Leader, Surviving and Thriving, 144 Points of Wisdom, Practical Tips, and Relatable Stories.

[00:33] Announcer:

And now, our feature presentation.

[00:35] SPEAKER_00:

Andrew, welcome to Principal Center Radio.

[00:37] SPEAKER_01:

Justin, honored to be with you. Big fan of the work you're doing. Really just happy to be on with you.

[00:42] SPEAKER_00:

Well, likewise, thanks so much for joining me to talk about the principalship. And one of the things I appreciated is the very moment that I picked up your book and held it in my hands was just the experience that you have translated into advice that anyone can follow and avoid learning by experience, right? Like we all learn from our experience, but it's better to learn from other people's experience. So what inspired you to want to share that experience with other leaders?

[01:07] SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, Justin, I believe in the power of a single experience. I believe in the power of influence that people have. They can influence you with just one simple little thing. In 2016, I visited a friend of mine, Dr. Rob Gilbert, who's a sports psychologist at Montclair State University. I went to his course to speak about leadership, about being a principal, about being a Division I men's basketball official.

[01:31]

And when I left, he was like, Andrew, you were incredible. This was awesome. And he handed me 10 books. And two of them were his. And he said, you know, where's your book? And I said, Doc, I'm a young father.

[01:45]

I'm a principal. I'm a referee. Like, I don't have time to go to the bathroom. Like, what are you talking about? And he said, Andrew, you've got to write a book. You know, you're really good at this.

[01:53]

I said, I can't. I don't have time. He said, you don't need the time. He said, just write down the things that you do as a principal. And it'll come to you. Well, I got a little bit of ADD.

[02:03]

It's not a disability. It's a superpower. Thank you, Peter Shankman. I didn't text on the way home, Justin, but I did do talk to text. And I had 60 tips on my way home. The next day at school, as you can tell in the picture on the book, I always have my notepad with me.

[02:17]

I had 40 more. So in less than 24 hours, I had 100 points of that book. And it just kind of was... going from there and I fell in love with it.

[02:29]

And then I fell in love with helping and working with other principals as well. So it was really from the power of a single experience, Dr. Rob prompting me that I could do it and I should do it.

[02:40] SPEAKER_00:

So Andrew, one of the things you mentioned there in passing that we should talk about is you spent time as an NCAA basketball official, right? How did that relate to your work as a school leader? And what are some of the crossovers there?

[02:52] SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, almost 20 years, Justin. And I stepped away in 2019, right? So it's my second year not having done it, but just was at about 20 years and I loved it. I played college hoops, Division III, Guilford College. The Quakers down in Greensboro, North Carolina, it was great. But I loved hoops.

[03:12]

And then I just got into officiating and, you know, again, just kind of stumbled into it. But I fell in love with the competitiveness. I fell in love with serving the game. And then being on edge to make the call, make the right call at the right time using the rules and tools that you have. So on those journeys of growing to become a principal, I got to Port Jervis in 05 as an assistant principal. I was nine years or seven years as assistant principal, nine as principal now.

[03:43]

But there are a lot of comparisons. There really are. If you think about it, you're in the spotlight. You have to enforce the rules. You have to deal with people that are angry with your decisions. And regardless of if you're right or wrong, you're going to have opinions on whether you're right or wrong.

[04:01]

And you have to have the ability to keep moving on. You have a tough play in the beginning of a game. You've got 18 more minutes to go. Well, you're having ups and downs in September and October. You got to get through it because there's going to be school the next day. There's going to be teachers.

[04:17]

There's going to be bells. There's going to be kids. Well, in refereeing, there's going to be plays. There's going to be whistles. There's going to be fouls. There's going to be coaches yelling.

[04:26]

So I learned how to deal with people when they're angry, when they're stressed. And also very passionate, right? When people are passionate about their teams, well, people are passionate about their kids. And they come at you in a similar way. Maybe as a coach might if he felt passionately about a call that went against his team, things like that. So there was a lot of comparisons.

[04:49]

And people ask me all the time, Justin, well, how could you do both, Andrew? How did you do that, right? The stress of each kind of canceled each other out. If I had a rough day at school, I was able to, in the locker room, kind of zone in and strengthen my mind to focus on what I was doing. And I wasn't thinking about maybe what happened at school while I'm reffing the game. If I had a tough call at the end of the game and I drove home or whatever, and then the next day at school, I'm at school.

[05:17]

I wasn't thinking about the game anymore. So they kind of canceled each other out that I wasn't stressed about one or the other because I was doing the other one at the next time.

[05:28] SPEAKER_00:

You know what I mean? Well, Andrew, one crossover that I think is worth pointing out is the importance of comfortable shoes in both reffing college basketball and being a school administrator. Why are comfortable shoes so important? Why did that make it into the book?

[05:43] SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and good question, Justin. It's really the whole outfit, right? One of the things I failed at comparison, you got to look the part, right? My head referees told me when I started out, Andrew, half the battle is when you walk on the court. Your body language, your presence. Are you smiling?

[06:01]

Are you standing there with your arms folded? Does your uniform look pressed, neat, and tight? Do you look fit? Do you look ready to go? They said that's half the battle. When Justin, when I interviewed here in Port Jervis way back in 05, a Hall of Fame teacher, he's literally in the Hall of Fame here, stopped the principal and in the middle of the hallway said, I don't know who this guy is and I don't know where he's from, but I would hire him.

[06:23]

He looks like a million bucks. And that had an impact on me. That had an impact on the principal. Luckily, I got the job. But that was another comparison about looking the part, right? It might seem shallow, but if you've read Malcolm Gladwell and you learn about thin slicing, people judge you by what you look like.

[06:42]

And as a leader, it's important. But I'm on the go. Again, I mentioned ADD. Earlier, I got to move. I like moving. And if, you know, at the end of the day, if I'm tired, I still want to get into a classroom.

[06:55]

Right. I know your challenge here about getting into classrooms. I got to get into classes at eighth and ninth period. I don't want to sit down in my office while I'm tired. Right. If your feet hurt, your legs hurt.

[07:05]

If your legs hurt, you don't want to move and you don't want to be up. Well, one of my philosophies is every bell, be in the hallway, be up, be moving. Something happens, right? There's an altercation in the cafeteria. There's an incident somewhere. I'm running and I'm moving.

[07:19]

So I felt that it's good to take care of yourself in a lot of ways as a school leader, because this is a marathon, not a sprint. And, you know, take care of your feet. So I'm a New Balance guy. I love wearing my New Balance. I have professional orthotics that I got from refereeing that I wear. Because if I don't feel well, I'm not going to operate as well.

[07:39]

So now I've gotten into wearing, you know, sneakers with dress clothes. And I know that's more popular now than it was back then. But, you know, I got my black and red sneakers from my days here at school.

[07:50] SPEAKER_00:

I also appreciated your comments on eating and drinking enough water. And I think in our profession, it is not unusual at all for people to say, oh, yeah, I eat lunch very consistently at 6 p.m. And I drink plenty of water on Sundays. But why is it so hard for us to prioritize our own wellness, our own physical needs to get through the day?

[08:10] SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I think it's such a reactive business, Justin, and we're reacting constantly. People coming in and just barging in. I make the comparison in the book about having people make appointments, right? We've all heard school leaders say, well, I'm going to have an open door policy. Yeah? How's that working for you in your life?

[08:31]

There's emergencies you have to take people, but when there's an emergency, you can't just barge into the doctor's office or in a lawyer's office. You got to make appointments. And I look at it as the same. I try to have a structured school day. I try to make a list, right? Just like so many effective people I've spoken about.

[08:49]

But I think us as school leaders, we might try to serve too much and put ourselves out there too much. And people just grab and pull you. And if you allow yourself to be grabbed and pulled, you know, I'm a fan of the schedule. And then again, I know, right? It's like the airplane. When the oxygen masks come down, what do they tell you?

[09:09]

Put yours out first. And so, you know, I do that with food and drink. I see us both drinking right now, but I try to fill this up at least a few times a day. And I'm an eater every two hours, right? I have my little something to eat six in the morning. I have my mid-morning snack a little, you know, every two hours because that's the – That's the day, right?

[09:30]

We're on the move. We got little chunks of time and I make sure that I eat in that time because again, I want to feel good. I want to have energy. I don't want to feel lethargic that I can't, you know, I'm trying to seize the day, not get through the day. You know what I mean?

[09:46] SPEAKER_00:

So Andrew, you say in the book that as a principal, you are not an emergency room. People can make appointments. What does that mean that we're not the emergency room? Because we've all felt that need to react when something happens, that need to respond and be supportive and step in when needed. But how does that translate into practice, that observation that we're not an emergency room?

[10:06] SPEAKER_01:

And again, you don't never know what's going to walk through the door, right, Justin, at an emergency room, and they have to deal with it. And we do too, right? Again, if there's an emergency, a teacher collapses in the hallway, that's an emergency, right? We're responding to that. Jimmy's shoe is not tied or he drops his lunch. It's not an emergency.

[10:26]

It might be upsetting for Jimmy, and Jimmy might be crying, right? And he might have dropped the food on someone else, and that kid might be crying. It doesn't necessarily mean it's an emergency for you. Part of you got to delegate. You have to have people empowered in their positions, right? Does everybody who barges in to see your secretary, is the secretary like a turnstile and just lets them right in?

[10:50]

Or does she or he learn how to facilitate to say, hey, Mr. Bader, I know you're upset right now, but Mr. Murata is not available. He can't see you right now. All right. Well, you're going to wait.

[11:02]

Well, I'm telling you, he he doesn't have time until 1 p.m. You know, he's not going to say, you know, right. People say, well, I'm going to wait for him. Right. They've done that before.

[11:11]

But you as the leader, Justin, you have to know which stuff needs attention right now and which can wait. We talked off air a little bit about taking the angry call from a parent. What's happening today's day and age? I know we're on radio or being recorded. We're not live with video, but right? What happens?

[11:30]

The kid leaves class. They're upset about something. They text the parent. The parent calls you. You don't know anything about it. The teacher doesn't know anything about it.

[11:38]

And the parent's going crazy on the phone. Like, I'm sorry, Mr. Smith. I don't know anything about the situation. Have you spoken to the teacher? Did you get the full picture of what your kid is telling you?

[11:50]

Maybe there's some other components that either you or I don't know about. But I direct my staff to just say, hey, tell Mr. Smith I'll get back to him. I've got to get some more information. I don't know what this is. But a lot of times when they're very, very angry, No matter what you do, it's not going to be worth your while to take that call.

[12:13]

I call those chinks out of the armor, Justin. We all have our Captain America shields. We all have our defense. But if you continually get berated by angry people, it's going to suck the life out of you versus you feel more empowered when you have the information. When you are more prepared for it, you are able to find some things out about their concern. Because then I call it, let the air out of the balloon.

[12:36]

Now you let that person vent and then you could say, OK, Mr. Smith, I was able to find out a little about this situation. I'm sorry you're upset. Here's what I know.

[12:45] SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And I remember reading the book Love and Logic as a teacher and hearing that advice for dealing with with students. Right. If a student is upset, the student gets in trouble for, you know, for something that happened in class or the hallway. The moment they arrive in the office may not be the best moment to speak with them. And I always found that reassuring.

[13:02]

When I was trying to get into classrooms, like a kid is here, I do not have to deal with them right this very second. If I'm on my way to go visit a classroom, chat with the teacher, I could go ahead and do that. And if I do, yes, I've kept that kid waiting a little bit, but they're probably much more willing and ready to speak with me about what happened. It's going to be a calmer conversation. And it's not going to be as stressful for either one of us and certainly works with parents as well. Well, Andrew, one of the other pieces of advice you have when it comes to dealing with parents, especially parents who may be upset or angry, is you say never let parents curse at you or be disrespectful.

[13:36]

So how do you do that and why does it matter?

[13:38] SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I think there's a line there, Justin, right? We're here to serve. We are here to redirect. We are here for a lot of, there's a lot of things that go under our job title, but we're not a doormat. We don't have to take that abuse. We don't have to kind of take that venom sometimes that they're angry about.

[13:58]

People have a right to be angry. They can express their anger. You don't have to be on the receiving end of all of that. So we had just talked a little bit about maybe not taking the call, the timing of that, right? But sometimes they're just going off, right? Like I'm here in the Northeast and sometimes parents at ball games, you know, I refer to the New York Giants and the Philadelphia Eagles, right?

[14:22]

I tell people, you're not at the Eagles games. No offense to anybody in Philadelphia if you're listening. But as an official, sometimes the language in the brotherly love in the city of Philadelphia wasn't the finest. So I tell people, you're not at an Eagles game. You can't just yell whatever it is that you want. You could do that at a professional football game.

[14:43]

That's not against the rules. Well, it is here. And so I give a warning. I say, hey, Mr. Smith, we're not going to have that type of language. I want to have dialogue with you.

[14:53]

I want to hear your message. I want to understand what your concern is. But I'm not going to allow you to curse at me. I'm not going to allow you to continue to spew obscenities about the teacher. I'm not doing that. Do you understand?

[15:05]

And I'm trying to have a professional conversation. If it continues, I give them the, Mr. Smith, I am going to hang up the phone. We are going to end this meeting. We could do it at another time. Is that clear?

[15:16]

And, you know, so again, I learned that dialogue through coaches, right? Working with coaches, they're angry. It doesn't mean they're right or wrong, and it doesn't mean they can just treat me that way, right? And we as principals represent a lot, but we represent our school and our community. You can't just allow that to happen, and you kind of have to redirect that. Maybe help bring them down.

[15:41]

In the book, Justin, I talk about the walk and talk. Sometimes it's better to get out of the office that you're not sitting across from somebody. It's a beautiful day here in the Northeast. Finally, it warmed up. But maybe, hey, you know, Mrs. Jones, let's go outside and talk a little bit.

[15:56]

Now you're walking side by side with that person and not head to head. And the energies are going in the same direction. Those kinds of things help. Timing, as we mentioned, but don't allow them to do that because then you're signing off that it's okay. It's okay for them to treat you like that. And it's not.

[16:15]

It's not in any professional sense.

[16:17] SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I appreciate that. We've got to put that boundary in place. On the other hand, you also talk quite a bit about getting positive news out into the community. And you actually include some examples of media coverage from your local community that you very purposefully sought and kind of pushed for to get the word out about the good things that were happening in your school. What's some of your advice for school leaders to generate that positive buzz in the community?

[16:43] SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I believe in that strongly, Justin. That's a great point. Because if you're not making your own news or putting out your own news, Who is, right? And that's everyone else, right? Anyone else who wants to put something on Facebook or put something out there, I believe that as the head of your school, you should be putting those things out there. And if it's constantly positive, that's contagious, right?

[17:07]

Setting a positive example, celebrating the good things, because now what are people talking about? What are people hearing about? What are those seventh and eighth graders hearing about the high school? Oh, look at all the awards people are winning. Look at the sports teams. Look at the clubs and activities.

[17:22]

Odyssey of the Mind went to the States. What? Like, I'm celebrating that Odyssey of the Mind. Like, it's the coolest thing ever. And it is for those kids, right? And it's important that we get excited about it.

[17:34]

We celebrate. As the principal, I'm not afraid to take a funny picture with them and put it on social media and put it out there. You know, is someone going to say, this guy's a quack? Who cares? You're celebrating the good things that the kids are doing in your school and community. And if you're not going to do it, who's going to do it, right?

[17:52]

So you got to get behind that. You got to get into that. I think the phone is a powerful tool, right? With the click of a button and a little voice memo, you can reach so many. That can be dangerous if you're not doing it smartly or well or you know, being focused. I always believe in the live mic too.

[18:09]

Every conversation you asked about parents, I believe that they're recording me. And I act as if, if I'm being recorded, right? Because if I do get on tape, Justin, who knows where this podcast is going to go, but who's ever listening to it, I hope they say, wow, Andrew Murata is a good dude, right? I could hear it in his voice. Well, that's how I act all the time. But I think that social media can help us as school leaders, not hurt us.

[18:33]

When it's good news, go out and celebrate it. When it's bad news, get out in front of it and say, hey, I'm Andrew Murata. I'm the principal. I accept full responsibility for what happened in my building. It's my fault. Here's the things we're going to do to correct X, Y and Z.

[19:07] SPEAKER_00:

Well, I appreciate that advice to just assume, even if you don't have a reason to, just assume that you're being recorded and say things that you can defend, that you can stand by. So if someone says, well, I got the principal on tape and here's what they said, other people can listen to that and say, okay, well, you seem like you were pretty upset, but the principal seems pretty level-headed. I... you know, that really takes the air out of the balloon to say things that you can stand by.

[19:29]

Absolutely. Let's shift gears a little bit and talk about faculty and staff. And just as you said, it's so important to get the good word out into the community. You identify a number of strategies for celebrating people within your school. What are some of your recommendations for celebrating the accomplishments of your staff, for encouraging good work and so forth? Yeah.

[19:49] SPEAKER_01:

Well, I'll take a page out of your book, Justin, right? Number one, you got to get in the classrooms. You got to be in it. You got to know what's happening in that classroom to know the good things, right? A parent calls and complains and says, you know, so-and-so was cursing at my kid. You know, like they say, mom, I was in so-and-so's classroom a hundred times.

[20:08]

hundred times this year like i've seen her teach like i can't see it right i just you know and again you don't always want to jump to defending right away but when you have your hand on the pulse of what's happening in the classroom you really can see the teachers their good days their bad days uh the relationships they build with kids but yeah so number one getting in there number two look look for awards what are some county awards what are some local awards state awards and nominate people, right? Who's doing exceptional work? Nominate them. Justin, I got a bunch of my notes and pads around, as small as a note in their mailbox after school or a text message just to say, hey, Justin, you were incredible today. The way you addressed every one of those kids, the ones online and the ones in person, you That was incredible.

[20:58]

I'm a big fan of Todd Whitaker and the work that Todd's done. Todd said this once and it resonated with me. He said, go into a teacher's classroom, be with that person for some time and tell them when they're done. Say, hey, Justin, I really appreciated being in your room today. I was having a rough day and I wanted to go back in and be reminded of why we're here, what it's like to be at school. Thanks for being an amazing teacher.

[21:24]

He said, you do that to your staff and you tell them how important they are. That's, you know, they need to hear that. So even as simple as celebrating it on a piece of paper, I'm a big fan of saying, hey, can I put that in a faculty meeting, right? You did this amazing lesson. Can I video that 20 seconds, 30 seconds of how you demonstrated this technique? And can we do that right now?

[21:47]

I'm celebrating the people within our people. And maybe there's people at the faculty meeting saying, wow, I wish he would record me one day and maybe they'll email me and say, Mr. Murata, I'm doing this cool thing. Would you come in? Right. Positivity breeds positivity.

[22:02]

And I believe in that. Are there some people that might be sitting in the back row saying, ah, that person's a kiss up or look, they're just trying to show off for the principal. Yeah, but I don't get involved with that. We're constantly moving forward with positivity and celebrating the good of others. You know, just like in refereeing, Justin, you can't listen to the people in the back row.

[22:21] SPEAKER_00:

Well, I think that's a great segue into the last thing that I wanted to ask about. You talk in the book a little bit about kind of knowing which staff members can help you anticipate some of those hurdles that you might face when you're with the entire staff, if there are some people who are going to be a little bit more difficult to get on board. Talk to us about the shirt before the shirt strategy.

[22:40] SPEAKER_01:

right? This is not an educational concept, the shirt before the shirt, but at Jersey Shore. I know if you're listening that you're like, oh my God, he watched the show. I watched the Jersey Shore, right? I'm in my 40s, right? It was the biggest thing.

[22:53]

And I grew up in the Northeast. I grew up in Staten Island, New York, not far from the Jersey Shore. I'm an Italian American. So So many of those kind of stereotypes or whatever the show was kind of resonated with me because that's kind of how I grew up. You know, one of the guys on there, Paulie, would have the shirt before the shirt. Right.

[23:11]

Something he would wear before they actually went out. Right. And I kind of made the comparison in the book of, well, before maybe a challenging meeting or before when the bright lights come on to make another refereeing reference. Hash it out. Talk it out. Talk about maybe some of the hurdles or pitfalls or potholes that we could hit, because I like to know what's coming my way.

[23:34]

I'm not a big surprise person. So when you talk it out and you ask questions like, hey, Justin, what do you think? Or, hey, Paul, tell me about, you know, what do you think maybe the staff might think about this? Right. You don't just take an initiative and run with it or you don't just. Bring something up in a big meeting without kind of feeling it out a little bit, right?

[23:56]

Getting some feedback. Think about it as a product, right? You have people do product testing. Well, you think about it in that way. So the shirt before the shirt was him getting ready for the big night out. Well, that is you kind of floating out your concept, which would be the shirt, kind of just to some people to be prepared ahead of time.

[24:17]

to maybe know what to expect about something. So I thought that was a little light and a little fun and certainly got some laughs out of that.

[24:24] SPEAKER_00:

Well, the book is just full of wonderful advice. And as you say in the subtitle, very relatable stories and very quick to take away some of those lessons and those insights. So the book is The School Leader, Surviving and Thriving, 144 Points of Wisdom, Practical Tips, and Relatable Stories. Andrew, if people want to learn more about your work or get in touch with you, where's the best place for them to go online?

[24:46] SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, thanks, Justin. Before I do want to thank Routledge Eye on Education. The book has been republished under the name The School Leader, Surviving and Thriving. And I think there's 19 more tips. I think we got to 144 there. So it has been republished.

[25:04]

It's in a different color. It's still me on the cover. So I'm happy about that. Very proud about that. And I added, yeah, 19 more tips there. So really, really happy about that.

[25:12]

But, Justin, I have a website, andrewmarotta.com, and I love writing. I've fallen in love with it. So I write a weekly blog called Education, Leadership, and Beyond, or hashtag ELB blog. And then I do a podcast, too, and it's called Education, Leadership, and Beyond. So I'm going to definitely have you on and talk to you about some of the work you're doing.

[25:33]

And then, again, people can just email me, Justin, andrewmarotta, LLC. I love helping principals. I love communicating, meeting people from around the country, around the world. Right. And when people take concepts from the book and they, you know, they put it into practice, it's such a such a great reward about it. As you know, you asked about the basketball referee.

[25:55]

And one of the reasons I kind of got away from that and got into this. Right. I might have had the best game ever. I might have got every call right, right? People might have been saying, what a great game. The referees didn't get in the way.

[26:09]

I wasn't positively impacting anyone's life, Justin. And now I can do that through the work of the book, through the work of being on podcasts and kind of getting this out because people think principals got the answers to everything and they don't. So when we can make it easy for each other, if I can help grow a better principal, a stronger, a more confident principal, perform better. They're going to be better. They're going to stay at their school longer and serve the kids better, which is going to impact all of us, all of us in the fields of education, as well as those kids and families that are in school, right? We want them to have a good experience.

[26:44]

So that's what I'm into now. And that's how people get in touch.

[26:47] Announcer:

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