Rigor in the 6-12 Math and Science Classroom: A Teacher Toolkit

[00:01] SPEAKER_02:

Welcome to Principal Center Radio, bringing you the best in professional practice.

[00:06] Announcer:

Here's your host, Director of the Principal Center and Champion of High Performance Instructional Leadership, Justin Bader. Welcome, everyone, to Principal Center Radio.

[00:15] SPEAKER_01:

I'm your host, Justin Bader, and I'm honored to welcome to the program my good friend, Dr. Barbara Blackburn, and welcome for the first time, Dr. Bradley Witzel. Dr. Blackburn is the author of 22 books on rigor policy, and motivation. And you've heard us talk many times before on Principal Center Radio about Dr. Blackburn's previous books.

[00:35]

And Dr. Witzel is the author of 10 books and professor and special education program coordinator in the College of Education at Winthrop University. And we're here today to talk about their new book, Rigor in the RTI and MTSS Classroom, Practical Tools and Strategies.

[00:53] Announcer:

And now, our feature presentation.

[00:56] SPEAKER_01:

Barbara and Brad, welcome to Principal Center Radio.

[00:58] SPEAKER_00:

Thank you.

[00:59] SPEAKER_01:

Well, I'm excited about this book because, you know, rigor is one of those topics that has always been with us. We've always known the importance of rigor. But as new initiatives come and go, as new movements to support students in their learning emerge, we have to figure out how to square those long-term priorities in our profession with those new movements, with those new things that are happening. And certainly RTI and MTSS are among those initiatives that are gaining massive traction these days and may have the potential to seem to work in opposition to our commitment to rigor and high standards. So we've got to really figure out how to square those, how to fit them together. And I'm excited that you've brought this book to the profession.

[01:41]

And I wonder if we could talk, first of all, about the work that this book came out of. What's kind of the origin story of rigor in the RTI and MTSS classroom?

[01:51] SPEAKER_00:

Well, I guess it started, oh my goodness, I'm going to say 10, 12 years ago when I was doing some of my early work with rigor. As I was doing training with teachers and principals, one of the biggest questions that would come up is, oh, but this doesn't really apply to students with special needs, does it? They can't do rigorous work. And at the time, Brad and I were colleagues at Winthrop. And so we had multiple conversations. And out of that, we wrote a book, Rigor for Students with Special Needs.

[02:22]

And it was a short book, but it gave some really good ideas. And Brad and I have kept in touch since I left Winthrop. And I don't know, maybe about three years ago, we started talking again. In too many cases, people want to lower the level of rigor for students with special needs because they say, oh, they just can't. And so I brought it up to him again and said, you know, Brad, this just continues to be an issue.

[02:48] SPEAKER_02:

What's fascinating about this is, right, RTI and MTSS are nothing new. This comes out of a 1999 initiative, 2004 special ed law, even the latest reauthorization of ESCA, right? This is all the same conversation of instead of trying to find an out, to giving the nonstandards How do we get them to meet standards? How do we increase their level of success in school? So this is perfect work for working with Barbara on here. I mean, her groundbreaking work on rigor has revolutionized so many different approaches that we take towards students, particularly students with disabilities and at-risk concerns.

[03:28]

So this is when our conversation started to begin. We're reading things of all this mixed success, where some people are doing an MTSS approach and getting wild, amazing gains, And other people are getting no gains. So following along with some of the latest research done out of the U.S. Department of Ed, and one of the latest findings, Russell Gersten and crew found that, well, we're not seeing great gains on MTSS for the major reason that it's not done with fidelity. Most people are saying, yeah, we do RTI.

[03:59]

Yeah, we do MTSS. But when investigated, they're actually not doing it. They're not giving more difficult information for the students. What they're doing is they're trying to find alternate ways to get the student through school, not to actually help them improve in learning. So this is where we got together and we said, well, how can we help redefine what MTSS is? How can we use some of this federal research and then gear it to what can we do to increase rigor for all students in an MTSS world, from Tier 1 all the way through Tier 3.

[04:31] SPEAKER_00:

I want to brag for just a little bit, Justin. We were very pleased to get the news from Routledge, who, as you know, is my long-term publisher. Brad has done so much work in the area of working with students with special needs. This book is actually co-published by the Council for Exceptional Children, and we really appreciated the respect they gave the work.

[04:53] SPEAKER_01:

Well, you mentioned something very important there, and that is standards. And I think we're in an era now where our standards are not just content standards. Our standards do not just specify the knowledge that students need. But in many cases, if we're thinking about the Common Core state standards or similarly rigorous standards, There are actually performance standards included and embedded that require students to demonstrate the ability to reason, to construct arguments. There's a lot to the standards these days and helping students meet those standards that can't really be scaffolded away, that does require students to become capable of doing ambitious intellectual work. And I think that does leave us with a lot of questions as a profession as to how to support all students in reaching those standards.

[05:44]

And as you said, not lowering those standards or eliminating them for students with special needs, but actually supporting students in reaching them. And that brings us to the idea of tiered instruction, which you talk about in the book. And I wonder if we could frame that up a little bit. What is tiered instruction? And what role does that play in helping all students meet rigorous standards?

[06:05] SPEAKER_02:

When we're going through tiered instruction, most states, not every state, has kind of a three-tiered approach to it. But let's not look at these as in you're in one tier, so you're not in the other. The first and foremost things I learned about these tiers is tier one, every student who is going to be graduating with a diploma will be in tier one. Tier one is your standards. Now, we all, like you stated, Justin, standards are the floor. They're not the ceiling.

[06:32]

So some people look at those as the absolute ceiling. They're trying to get the student up to that level of understanding. And that's not what we're pushing here. That's the minimum that we're looking for students to achieve. So in Tier 1, we're going standards-based and beyond. Tier 2, now remember, Tier 2 students are still in Tier 1.

[06:52]

They're getting core instruction in Tier 1, but now we have a small additional time of day for a small group of students will come together with a similar, and it's an ugly word, but it's called a deficit area, whatever they're struggling in. So then they're going to be focused on what to do to improve in that specific skill deficit. And that's got to be tied directly to what they're doing in core, in core instruction, Tier 1. If that Tier 2, if that little bit amount of time over several weeks, if that's not enough to increase their performance in the intervention and core instruction, then we have to consider Tier 3. Tier 3 is an additional amount of time and a very small group or one-on-one intervention. And then again, it's designed to improve the student in the deficit area that directly impacts what they're doing in core instruction.

[07:40] SPEAKER_01:

So Bradley, I'm thinking back to my experience as a student in high school and remembering tracked classes. You know, there was kind of the college prep track and the regular track, or some schools might have had regular and honors. We had different names for it, but I think the majority of the country at one time was tracked in that way. And I wonder if you're seeing this too, where...

[08:01]

that's kind of coming back a little bit where there are regular classes or maybe college prep classes for all. And then RTI is starting to be added as kind of a slow lane. And it feels to me like a highway where you have the fast lane and the slow lane. And it seems to me like that kind of approach to kind of the return to tracking is not what you're talking about, but it is what's happening in some places under the banner of RTI where we're saying, okay, tier one is regular. And then we add this kind of slow lane for kids who aren't keeping up with the regular instruction. But you're talking about something very different from that.

[08:38]

Is that right?

[08:39] SPEAKER_02:

Absolutely. And that's been happening for years. People have tried finding alternate means to getting students to graduate for years. First, not every student is going to succeed at the same rate or the same time. So forever that trouble will exist. This is something different.

[08:56]

This is not a new title to cover our tracks on bad ideas from bold. This one is how do we get those students through those courses that are required for graduation and how do we get them to be successful in those? In addition to that, let's look at something like reading. Okay, so now I have a child, and if you want a high school example, I have a child in 10th grade English who's struggling because his reading comprehension is so low. So the English teacher is trying to cover something like theodicy, and they're spending a lot of time, but the child struggles in reading comprehension. Therefore, someone's going to say, see, he can't keep up with theodicy.

[09:30]

It's too complex for him. No, no, that's not it at all. What the child needs is additional support. to how do I get help with reading comprehension so that I can make sense of these. That's where that Tier 2 work on reading comprehension, they're learning the skills, they're learning the direct skill about how to improve reading comprehension. And that's exactly in, specifically in, with the core content that they have in 10th grade English.

[09:54] SPEAKER_00:

I was just going to piggyback on Brad's point about, you know, providing that extra support. If I'm the English teacher, I actually have a couple of ways I can do that. One of the simplest and high school English teachers wait to hear the whole example before you freak out on me. But one of the simplest things is that for those students who need the additional support, I work with them online. on the novel using the CliffsNotes version first. Now, I don't have them read the CliffsNotes version instead, because that would simply be lowering the rigor.

[10:30]

What I do is we work with pieces from the CliffsNotes, which streamlines the information down, builds background knowledge, builds vocabulary, and then I take them back to the actual text. And because they have that background work, they are better able to handle the text. And that's a simple solution. And it's the kind of thing that can happen within the regular classroom. So it's not lowering it. It's providing that extra support, possibly at a lower level, with the goal being to always bring them back up to standard.

[11:09] SPEAKER_02:

What's so clever about Barbara's example there, Justin, is I jumped right into a Tier 2 system or a Tier 2 implementation of MTSS. Barbara perfectly explained that in core, the student may be involved in an MTSS system, but we may be just watching the student now, and the core classroom teacher is responsible for doing the intervention during class. And so with Barbara referring back to my favorite author, Cliff Notes, and talking about how to take advantage of that, I mean, there's so many other great ways we can help out these students.

[11:42] SPEAKER_01:

I think it's a great example because the reality is doing that prep work to learn the vocabulary, to get a sense of the structure of the book and become familiar with it before reading it is extra work. It is extra time that maybe the rest of the class doesn't need. Maybe there are some aspects that can be implemented at tier one, but it is extra work. And that's precisely the point. That's precisely what it takes to help a student who is behind do grade level work. Well, let's talk for a moment about tier one instruction, because I think that's something that we too easily gloss over and we jump right to tier two and we think, okay, if we already have general instruction taking place, you know, tier one is in place.

[12:24]

We don't need to worry about that. We need to add. those Tier 2 supports and interventions and Tier 3. We probably have special ed already, so we can just kind of modify that. But the RTI approach to tiered instruction is actually quite different. And I wonder if you can talk with us a little bit about what Tier 1 really means for regular classroom instruction.

[12:44]

What needs to change for Tier 1 to truly be in place and not just be the status quo with new stuff added on top for Tiers 2 and 3?

[12:52] SPEAKER_02:

A couple years back, Justin, I was working with a state And they showed me their state numbers. And one district in particular came up, who I still work with today, and they shared their numbers and ensured that over half the students in fourth grade were failing mathematics. They were not meeting grade-level standards. And I said, so what intervention must we put in place? And my answer was, you don't need to put any interventions in place. And they went, what?

[13:18]

But our scores. I said, oh, no, it's not intervention that you need to improve. It's your core instructions. In fact, I worry that if you put an intervention in right now, what you're going to be doing is you're going to be putting band-aids over gaping wounds. So, like, first thing we do when we build a house is we lay down a really solid foundation. Without a solid foundation, I don't care how pretty that house is.

[13:39]

It's going to come crumbling down soon. So what we've got to do is we've got to establish what is good, solid, research-based approaches for tier one. When districts put together even something – that maybe when you pass up to something silly like a mission statement or a vision statement, you really set things up in order to build what you want in your core instruction. So let's say that we have a district where we are struggling right now. Our numbers are lower than we anticipated them. Well, take a look at what you're doing.

[14:07]

Take a look at the curriculum you're providing. Take a look at the approach that you're using in that curriculum. Are we trying to get an explicit instruction approach early, or have we gone another route? So you have to adjust what you're doing in core to meet the needs of most students. Now, here's a scary number. If you have more than 20% of your students are struggling at a grade level, that means you have the wrong core approach.

[14:34]

Your curriculum is not set correctly. I don't say that you have to wait until you get there to begin an RTI or an MTSS Tier 2, Tier 3 system, but you've got to always be working towards at least 80% success. If you don't have that 80% success, you're still trying to build up.

[14:52] SPEAKER_00:

Let me play out what he's talking about. The core instruction being what needs to be adjusted. I'm going to stick with math since that's what he started with. This one's very typical in a math classroom. Students are expected to understand complex concepts. They are expected to be able to apply them into new situations, you know, the higher level critical thinking.

[15:14]

But in most math classrooms, we are not building to that point. In fact, in most math classrooms that I visit, there's a lot of computation, just basic algorithms, basic formulas. And so I was working with a group of math teachers and we were looking at some criteria for rigor. We were actually using Webb's depth of knowledge, which I've talked to your folks about before. And we looked at what they were doing. We're looking at samples of assignments and the students were computing simple algorithms following a formula.

[15:48]

And I said, you know, this this really isn't rigorous if we look at that. So what can we do to make this more rigorous? And the teacher's response was, well, we also once they can do this, we have them do this in word problems. Well, word problems are definitely a step up, except that many times they're still asking the same thing. The computation is two plus two equals four. The word problem is Sylvia had problems.

[16:14]

Two pieces of pizza. Brian had two pieces of pizza. How many did he have? Still the same thing. We're computing a simple algorithm. So they were brainstorming.

[16:22]

They said, oh, we know what we can do to push them to the application piece. They can create their own word problems. Well, the students created word problems like this. Darlene had one piece of pizza. Caitlin had four pieces of pizza. How many pieces?

[16:36]

Still basic computation. None of that is rigorous. Forget RTI and MTSS. That's just not rigorous instruction in a classroom. So, of course, the students are not being successful. So what we looked at, if you really look at what rigor is in math, one of the characteristics is that students can recognize and explain misconceptions.

[17:00]

And so what we began to look at was, okay, do some computation. That's a part of math. Get it. Go ahead and do it. But what you want to build to is something like this. The students are given a problem, and it can be a word problem, whatever, and it is already solved for them.

[17:22]

So they are actually given maybe two or three or four, depending on where you are with your students, They're given two or three or four problems that are already solved. The students have to figure out which one is solved incorrectly, explain why it is incorrect, solve it correctly, and then explain why they know it is right. Now, that is an entirely different level of thinking. And one, that ought to be what all students are doing. But two, it is absolutely something that students...

[17:57]

in the lower tiers can do. And here's how I adjust it. I may have a tiered group where I'm having to do extra modeling with some. And with my students, my students who are really struggling, they may only be identifying the misconception out of two choices. I may have other students who are identifying it out of three or four. And for my advanced students, they might have four, but they don't know how many are incorrect.

[18:24]

So they're having to determine that across the board. That's how you work with the core instruction, making it more rigorous for everybody, but while adjusting what you need to do to make sure they can all be successful. Does that make sense?

[18:37] SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, absolutely. And I love in your example that the depth is really there. The cognitive work that needs to be done and the skill that's being developed there. is the same for all students. And what's varying is the instruction and the level of support that's provided. And I think we really have to keep an eye on that issue, that it should be a little bit more work to help kids who are not starting at the same place reach the same target.

[19:04]

I think we just have to expect that. And I know in a lot of cases, when we get to something difficult in the math curriculum, we tend to simplify it, like we tend to see those problems that do require students to do some higher order thinking, and we tend to simplify them and kind of gloss over them and just say, well, just solve the problem. Don't worry about all this, you know, this kind of extended thinking that the book says to do. But that points us to the issue of evidence-based practices and research-based curriculum. And I think one of the common frustrations and complaints of parents these days is that math is different now. But one of the things I'm noticing about our newer math curricula is that they are written in order to develop students thinking in ways that, you know, simply learning the algorithms does not accomplish.

[19:50]

And I just want to kind of on a sidebar caution people against removing some of that from their math curriculum in the name of time or simplicity, because that's where a lot of what you're talking about to me shows up that we have to teach that math curriculum as it's written. And be very careful about removing things, because we're going to be removing something good if we do.

[20:12] SPEAKER_02:

There's a good long-term study by Agrodini and Harris, and it starts back in 2009, 2010, carries through, and they're doing follow-ups even, I think as late as 2014, and it talks about the top curriculums, what they use for this random assignment of curriculum in mathematics, and why it's so important to it.

[20:31] SPEAKER_00:

And one of the things that I think is interesting when it comes to math, because in many ways, I think math can be more controversial, because I will still run into people who will talk about, now, what kind of math are they teaching these days? Is that that new math that didn't work? You know, but when you look at the evidence based strategies that we talk about in the book for a math classroom, they provide a model of proficient problem solving. Show them what good problem solving looks like. Verbalize your thought. Show them your thinking.

[21:05]

Allow for guided practice. Don't just throw them out there on their own. provide frequent cumulative review. That's not old math. That's good math. So the idea that what we want to do is this separate set of things that are innovative and changing.

[21:22]

No, it's good practice and we need to do it. And in many cases, not in all, but in many cases, if we were doing that, we would prevent a lot of problems.

[21:34] SPEAKER_02:

If you take a look at the data from the National Assessment of Educational Progress, The reason why math, I guess, keeps coming up as an example, reading, we're getting improvements through interventions. In other words, from fourth to eighth grade, the students who are below basic decreases in number. What we're having a problem with literacy is that the students who are proficient and advanced, that's not maintained at the same level that we wished. In mathematics, we're getting different answers. We're getting an increase in the number of students below basic from fourth to eighth grade. So once a small error begins in mathematics core instruction, that begins balloon later on, right?

[22:12]

Because math is so compressed at the lower grade levels. One small error balloons up to be later problems. In literacy, we are having some success. But at the same time, we have better research right now in literacy than we do in mathematics. When you're talking about evidence-based programs and evidence-based instruction, we've got really strong data of what to do for literacy, but we're at the cusp of really grabbing some good ideas in mathematics. But like you said, we have to start somewhere, and building a sound foundation of skills is a must.

[22:44] SPEAKER_00:

And let me add to that and really piggyback off what you said, and Brad, see if you agree with me on this. I think one of the challenges we have In education in general, particularly with RTI and MTSS, is that too often we are not using evidence-based instructional strategies. We are using the latest big things. which may or may not have research to support it. We are using the latest cute idea we got off Teachers Pay Teachers, and it may not be evidence-based. And I know when I was a teacher, most say evidence-based, and I would say, well, you tell me as a teacher, I don't see my own evidence.

[23:25]

It's not that. It's that there are things we know about good practice. We have evidence based on research. We have evidence based on actual classroom use. And when we talk about evidence-based, we're saying there are so many things you can do. You have such limited time.

[23:45]

You need to prioritize based on the things we know work.

[23:50] SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, very well said. And I think that's kind of a through line in the book about evidence-based practice in math, in literacy, and you have a whole chapter on evidence-based practices in literacy. And You know, these are things that are not going to be in place by accident, right? It takes intentionality. It takes fidelity to put those practices in place and make sure that all students have access to that kind of instructional practice. And I love in all of your books, Barbara, that you include so many specific examples.

[24:18]

I mean, your books are not a wall of textbook. Almost every page has diagrams and graphic organizers and examples from your work in classrooms, your work with teachers. So I really appreciate the specificity of the examples you provide in all of that. And I wonder if we might shift gears in our last little section here to talking about leadership. Now, certainly there's a lot more in the book around behavior, MTSS, for behavior and social and emotional learning, and so on. And we definitely recommend that people check out the book for those chapters.

[24:51]

But I wonder if we could talk a bit about leading for rigor in the RTI and MTSS classroom. What are some of the most important things for leaders to focus on as they do this work?

[25:04] SPEAKER_00:

Well, I think the first thing to recognize is that RTI, MTSS is not one person's role. It's not the teacher's job to take care of this because, frankly, the one classroom teacher can't, not by herself. She has got to have or he has got to have support from the teacher special needs students. They may need support from the social worker, the guidance counselor, the leadership team. It's too much work. to be for one person.

[25:37]

I can't solve every problem. Even in my planning, I need to work with a team to plan lessons and to plan my adjustments and to really figure things out because it's simply too much for us to put all of the responsibility on one person's shoulders.

[25:54] SPEAKER_02:

Absolutely. And we include some charts to help part out some of the roles that could potentially assist when you're going through different ideas. such as, okay, who's in charge of reviewing the math data? Who's in charge of reviewing our elementary literacy data? Okay, if that's your goal, then who's in charge of curriculum? And bringing teachers in on that, bringing principals in on that.

[26:17]

We were really lucky on this one, Justin. By luck, we bought out some of the top leaders for MTSS in the country at the school level and at the state level. And at the school level, people came up with some awesome charts that we included in the book of how you can track your data based on an instructional approach, based on a curriculum that you purchased, and then how you're going to get multiple viewpoints on it. One example of that was given to us by one of the leaders, Ted Ginnerman, and Ted talked about, well, you know, you've got a program that you've purchased and it's working really good in these two schools, but it works horribly in this one school over here. Rather than letting that school abandon that program, we need to go in there and get some fidelity data Are they following the curriculum or not? And then if not, then if we do have a different set of students there and with a different need, then that's adjusted.

[27:08]

But again, it takes this team approach. And you probably heard of the term, I hear a lot about DBI in the field, and it's data-based individualization. And data-based individualization talks about using progress monitoring, diagnostic data, and screening measures to adjust for the needs of each individual student in there. And as a leader, you've got to take hold of that because if the leader of the school does not take hold of that discussion, right, every four to five weeks, it will go away. And like Barbara said, it will become one person's, you know, mission to make that happen. And that's just not going to work.

[27:44] SPEAKER_00:

And I would say, Justin, that, you know, because if I'm one of your listeners and I'm a principal, I'm going – Okay, all that sounds great. I probably need to get the book and read it because it sounds like there's a lot of information, but here's what I need to know. Tell me the number one thing I need to do as a principal to help make our work more effective. And here's what it is. It's what I think the number one role of principals is. Your role is to remove barriers for success for your teachers and students.

[28:12]

And so you got to figure out what's going on, figure out what needs to happen with a lot of input and help make it happen. Get out of the way whatever's in the way. If the problem is teachers can't find planning time because there simply isn't any in the schedule, then find a way to build that time in there for them. If the problem is there's not a space where they can work uninterrupted for 30 minutes, figure it out even if that means giving them your office.

[28:37] SPEAKER_01:

job of a principal is to remove barriers for success very well said very well said i love that and you know i was thinking about my own school and collaboration time and the barrier for my teachers was that they did not have a common planning time there two of them would and then the third teacher on the team would not have a common planning time i said why is it this way and we looked at our master schedule and it was the pe teacher wasn't full-time So in order to add that collaboration time and allow teachers to truly work together and have common prep every day, we had to actually put money into our PE teacher's salary and get her up to full time. And that was such a weird argument to make to my district, to my boss to say, this is what we're doing. in order to improve collaboration, we're actually investing in the PE teacher. But it was really a no brainer once we identified that constraint.

[29:28]

And from then on, everything got easier because teachers actually had what they needed. They had that barrier removed. And that turned out to be just a tremendous thing for collaboration and for our students. and thinking about the resources that we have in place. One of my professors at the University of Washington, Meredith Honig, says that organizations tend to respond to problems by adding staff. And certainly in many schools now, we have added staff for RTI, like there are many RTI coordinators in schools around the country.

[30:03]

But we're talking about something broader than that, that involves a redefinition of the work of existing staff as well. And I have to give a lot of credit to some of the special ed teachers that I worked with who were on the leading edge of this and who realized that in order for tier one instruction to be in place, in order for tier two supports to be in place, we had to break down some of the traditional silos around special education and say, you know what? Actually, our special ed teacher is the best person to work with this particular group of students, even if some of them don't have IEPs. And that was very challenging for us philosophically because, you know, there are funding implications and there are some legal things that we have to think through very carefully. But redefining the work of existing staff, not just adding staff with an RTI label on their job description, I think is really critical for making this work as a team.

[30:56] SPEAKER_02:

I think that's a great point. Taking advantage of the skills and the talents of that building. It's so important. And this is where we go back and some people just think RTI and MTSS are solely about data and everything is supposed to be score driven. And the truth of the matter is those teachers are going to get amazing formative assessments for you when they understand what they're looking for. And again, that's where, well, find a teacher who knows how to do this.

[31:23]

Instead of everybody having to go out for a training, how about they work together on this?

[31:27] SPEAKER_01:

And it comes back to instruction. If students are not getting what they need, we don't necessarily need to hire three new people. We need to make sure that students are getting the instruction they need, whether that's in social and emotional skills, whether that is in math, whether that's in literacy. Ultimately, so much of this comes back to instruction.

[31:44] SPEAKER_02:

That's what NCSS is about. It's not about special education. Not even specifically about data. It's about trying to improve instruction for all students.

[31:52] SPEAKER_00:

You know, when I was listening to both of you say that, I totally agree. And I guess the struggle I have is when people want to get in a debate about, oh, it's about this, oh, it's about that. You know what? I don't care what you're doing in education. It's always about instruction. Because what we do in education is we help children and adolescents grow to a new place.

[32:13]

And that happens through quality instruction. And if we are truly committed to helping every student learn, I don't understand what the debate's about.

[32:24] SPEAKER_01:

So the book is Rigor in the RTI and MTSS Classroom, Practical Tools and Strategies. Barbara and Brad, I want to thank you for joining me on Principal Center Radio.

[32:35] SPEAKER_02:

Thanks. Thank you so much for your time today, Jessica.

[32:37] Announcer:

Thanks for listening to Principal Center Radio. For more great episodes, subscribe on our website at principalcenter.com slash radio.