Scaffolding for Success: Helping Learners Meet Rigorous Expectations Across The Curriculum

[00:01] Announcer:

Welcome to Principal Center Radio, helping you build capacity for instructional leadership. Here's your host, Director of the Principal Center, Dr. Justin Bader. Welcome everyone to Principal Center Radio.

[00:13] SPEAKER_00:

I'm your host, Justin Bader, and I'm honored to welcome back to the podcast for the 13th time, my good friend, Dr. Barbara Blackburn. Barbara Blackburn, PhD, is the author of 35 books, and she's a full-time consultant who works with schools around the world to help them raise the level of rigor and motivation for professional educators and students alike. Dr. Blackburn has been repeatedly named to the top 30 education gurus by Global Gurus, and she's the author of the new book, Scaffolding for Success, helping learners meet rigorous expectations across the curriculum, which we're here to talk about today.

[00:49] Announcer:

And now, our feature presentation.

[00:51] SPEAKER_00:

Barbara, welcome back.

[00:53] SPEAKER_01:

Oh, thank you. It is always so good to do podcasts with you. We have such a good time.

[00:58] SPEAKER_00:

We do. You remain far and away our number one guest, and I'm very excited to talk about the new book because one of the chief challenges, I think, of rigor is helping all students access rigor. And of course, that means scaffolding. But I get the sense that people think that perhaps scaffolding and rigor are opposed to one another or that scaffolding undermines rigor. Is that the case? Do people actually believe that?

[01:22]

And is it true?

[01:24] SPEAKER_01:

Well, they believe it. It's not necessarily true, but absolutely people believe it. It's one of the myths about rigor is that students should just be able to achieve it. And in my definition of rigor, I talk about that rigor is a combination of high expectations, scaffolding and support, and then demonstration of learning. And I think about it as the higher the level of rigor, the higher the need for support. And I was sharing that one time during one of my workshops.

[01:53]

And I had a teacher really call me on it, exactly what you're saying. Say, no, no. You know, if I'm going to have to scaffold them, then they're just not capable of rigor. And I asked the entire group this question. I said, how many of you remember your first year as a teacher or a principal? And of course, everybody's hands went up.

[02:11]

I said, now, how many of you during that first year needed help? You needed to ask someone for advice. You needed someone to help you accomplish something. Every hand went back up. And I said, that's what we're talking about. You were in a rigorous situation and you needed support and scaffolding to be successful.

[02:28]

Why would it be any different for our students? And I think that's what is so critical. I'm not saying do it for students, but I'm saying that everybody needs those times. where the scaffolding is what helps you be successful. Another one that I would give you is, let's say you came to visit me in North Carolina. I'm in Western North Carolina.

[02:49]

Yes, we have survived the hurricane. Yes, there are still plenty of needs. So be aware of that. Keep folks in your thoughts. But if you came to see me and you'd never been here before and you landed at the airport, chances are you would use a GPS to try to find me. Now, if the GPS gave you all the directions at once and then did not repeat them turn by turn, you probably would not successfully get to me.

[03:13]

That's also scaffolding in a rigorous situation. So scaffolding really is critical and it's not an excuse for not doing rigor. It's the way that we accomplish rigorous things.

[03:23] SPEAKER_00:

Beautifully said. So this fear that we're going to undermine rigor by scaffolding just inherently is not there. Is there the potential for us to get this wrong and perhaps overdo the scaffolding so that the challenge is not there, that the rigor that we're looking for is not there?

[03:39] SPEAKER_01:

Well, you've got the potential in two ways. One, you can be doing scaffolding for something that isn't rigorous. So you assign students something that's not rigorous and then you scaffold anyway. So that's one issue. But the other issue is you can create something that's rigorous for your students to do and scaffold so much that they don't have to do anything on their own. So there are ways you can make your own mistake in a rigorous situation, but we don't have to do that.

[04:08]

It's about choosing the right amount of scaffolding. And one of the things that I talk about in the book, I've got a whole chapter devoted to it, is the concept of planning. That you can't just do scaffolding, you've got to plan it. Because if you don't plan ahead, you'll either do too much or not enough, or not the right kind. And People say that I'm a very good presenter and I will take that because I've been doing it a very long time and they like me. But I still plan ahead for every one of my presentations.

[04:39]

Sometimes I don't have to plan as much, but I always plan because I may be good when I don't plan, but I'm an excellent teacher when I do plan. And I think that's really the goal for all of us is we want to be very, very good at what we do. Well, if you want that, you're going to need to plan to get there. And that's true with scaffolding.

[04:58] SPEAKER_00:

It's not the kind of thing that you can just think on your feet and do effectively. It has to be prepared as the lesson is being prepared and planned.

[05:06] SPEAKER_01:

Right. I mean, you can come up with a graphic organizer just and say, oh, we'll do a graphic organizer. But are you doing the best one to help the students learn and become independent? And that takes planning.

[05:16] SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely. And you have tons and tons of examples of graphic organizers in the book. Anyone who's familiar with your books is probably nodding along because they know just how full they are of specific tools that people can use and examples from classrooms and templates and things that people can use to scaffold for their students. Let's talk a little bit about vocabulary because it strikes me that if a student does not have the vocabulary to understand vocabulary, not only what they're reading, but you point out in the book what they're watching in a video, right? The format doesn't necessarily make up for the fact that a student may not have the concepts or the terminology in order to benefit from something that we're putting into their learning experience. So help us understand the proper role of vocabulary and how we can scaffold the acquisition of vocabulary that students may not come in with, but need in order to benefit from a lesson.

[06:04] SPEAKER_01:

Well, let me start by saying that I don't care what subject you teach, you're a vocabulary teacher, okay? If you teach physical education, there is physical education vocabulary your students need to know. Art, music, math, I don't care what you are, you don't have to be a reading teacher, you are a vocabulary teacher, whether you want to be or not. Because there is vocabulary that serves as the key that unlocks your content. And there's several things that we need to do. One is...

[06:33]

We need to like vocabulary. And I know that sounds a little bit weird, but I had teachers. I remember a science teacher in high school, and she was just like, vocabulary isn't important. I don't like it. I'm not an English teacher, so we're not going to do it. And I just remember never paying attention to vocabulary in her class, and I was not very successful in that class.

[06:55]

But no matter what you teach, celebrate your vocabulary. We talk about word walls. in English classes and reading classes, but have a word wall in a math class with vocabulary that's specific to your subject. Have a word wall in whatever you teach, art, music, business, technology. In fact, it's almost more important there because all of those subjects I just named and more, science, I could just keep going, all of the vocabulary there is very specialized. So it tends to be things that I haven't seen or heard before.

[07:31]

So it becomes very important for me to know that content specific vocabulary. So celebrate it. Put it up on the wall. Teach it. Don't just assume that students know what a biome is. Don't assume they know what a production is.

[07:45]

Don't assume they know what aerobic exercise is. We need to stop and talk about what those words are. before we just jump into the instruction. It's okay to pre-teach some vocabulary. There's nothing wrong with that. That's a type of scaffolding.

[07:59]

And it doesn't mean that you don't trust your students. It means that sometimes there are words that you know that they don't know and it's okay to pre-teach them. So we want to celebrate vocabulary in our subject area. We want to pre-teach it when it's appropriate. I'm a big believer in graphic organizers as anyone who's ever read any of my books knows. And I am with vocabulary where you don't just put the word down.

[08:23]

And I give students boxes to do this in so that there's places for them to look at things. What I like about graphic organizers is it chunks information. For students who need that, it's helpful. If they don't need it, don't make them use it. But I do one with with vocabulary where it's you do what the word is. You do a diagram.

[08:43]

You do the definition from the book, the textbook, whatever you've got. You do another definition that you have to find and you have to cite the source. Then you create your own definition and then you do examples and non-examples. Because that makes a real big difference. For example, I was in a middle school classroom, science classroom. And the teacher asked the students, does anybody know what grounded means?

[09:10]

And this one student raised his hand. I was observing my student teacher. And you could just tell this was not the student that she wanted to call on. It just wasn't. But she called on him anyway. And he goes, I know exactly what grounded means.

[09:22]

It's what my dad did to me when I made a C on your test last week. And that's exactly what grounded means. But it's not what grounded means in the science classroom. And so, you know, it was a whole different way. It took the lesson in a different direction. So she had to do some undoing.

[09:39]

But that's examples and not examples. And so those are really important. So that's scaffolding. And, you know, it's just helping students understand the bigger picture so they can really understand the words.

[09:50] SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely. And as you mentioned, this is not merely for language teachers, but in every subject, we need to be teaching vocabulary and seeing that as kind of a key form of scaffolding. Talk to us a little bit more about doing that across different subject areas, because you've got a whole separate chapter on that and tons of tools for us.

[10:11] SPEAKER_01:

Oh, gosh. And there's just so many different things to do. I think the first thing is that We really do have to recognize whether it is vocabulary or comprehension. Comprehension is a big one. Whether I'm watching a video trying to understand it, watching a demo of somebody fixing a car engine, you know, no matter what I'm doing, I have to understand what is happening. So I don't have to be a reading teacher or an English teacher to teach comprehension.

[10:38]

I've got to do that in my classroom. And it is things like chunking the information so that if we are, let's go with the engine and that I'm in an auto class and we are rebuilding an engine because it's not working. You know, I don't need to just do all the steps and then stop and talk about it. We need to do maybe two steps and then stop and say, OK, so now what happened and what is this doing to set us up for what comes next? And you may even have to chunk at every step. You just sort of got to decide that based on what's going on with your instruction.

[11:09]

And the same thing happens in math. If I'm teaching a new complex topic and I just give people a word problem to solve, You know, that may be too much for them to do all at one time. We've got to slow down and talk about let's skim this thing. What do we know? What are the given variables? What is the question asking us?

[11:29]

Because sometimes students skip that part. You know, they're in a hurry. They want to get done. My stepson was that way. Now, what's missing? What's the missing variable?

[11:37]

Okay, now let's stop and solve the problem. So we chunk things for comprehension. And again, that doesn't matter what the subject is. Any subject you give me, I'm going to be able to give you an example of comprehension in that subject, of vocabulary in that subject, because they are important. They are critical.

[11:55] SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely. And of course, students need that vocabulary not only to understand, not only to solve problems, but also to write. And you have a chapter and lots of tools on writing. and i remember dealing with this tension as a science teacher where sometimes students would have a blank notebook and they would you know kind of build out their their science lab report from scratch in a blank notebook and sometimes i would have various levels of you know templates that i would provide And I'm not sure I really cracked that one. I'm not sure I really figured that out. So how do we scaffold writing the right amount?

[12:29]

Because certainly we want students to be able to start with a blank page sometimes, but we also don't want them to be paralyzed by that blank page. And we want them to get to where they need to get for our instructional purposes for the lesson. So help us think about scaffolding writing.

[12:45] SPEAKER_01:

I like and it doesn't have to be a formal graphic organizer. It can just be a piece of paper the kids have. I like to chunk it just like I do with comprehension. So with my students, I taught for several years. I taught struggling students. I taught an attract system.

[13:02]

So I had students who were not special needs, but they were not regular. So that's who I taught. I never had them start with a blank piece of paper at the start of the year. We would always divide it like into four pieces. And I'd say, OK, what I want to do just in that upper left corner is just write what you think you would start your paper with. And we would do that.

[13:20]

And then the next one might be, what are the reasons that you think that? And then what are some examples? And then what's your conclusion? And then they could take that and turn it into something on a blank piece of paper. My students found that helpful because it was simply too overwhelming to start on a blank sheet of paper. They didn't know what to do.

[13:38]

So I like doing that. I was looking, you know, again, I've got so many graphic organizers, but I'm big on that kind of chunking. So if they were having to write something where they had to support a position with evidence, which is something particularly in middle and high school, we do a lot of, I would talk about, okay, you've got a chair. So at the top of your paper, I want you to write what your opinion is. You believe I should not give you homework, you know, whatever. All right.

[14:07]

Now I want you to number one, two, three, four, spread it out. One, two, three, four. You've got to give me four reasons that that is true. Why should I not give you homework? And I want you to think about it like a chair. Okay.

[14:19]

The opinion was the seat. Now you've got to have four legs. And if you only have three legs, then you're going to be short one and you're going to have a wobbly chair. So with writing, it's a lot of that kind of stuff. And not everybody needs it. Okay.

[14:33]

Sometimes you do scaffolding with everybody. Sometimes you do it with some students. Sometimes you do it with one student. My chair example, I use that all year. You know, don't forget a good chair has got four legs. They didn't have to use the paper anymore, but they always had that reminder.

[14:49]

So anytime I can do those kinds of things, that's going to be helpful. And you just got So many. I was looking in the book just to see that there's just so many. I can't even describe all of the others. There's stars, there's fish, there's just all kinds of things in there.

[15:06] SPEAKER_00:

And it strikes me that part of the trick here is that the first thing the student is putting on the paper is not an idea. So that they, that kind of breaks the ice, right? Like it's not a commitment. It's not high stakes to write the first words because the first thing you're writing on the page is, you know, the diagram or the chart or, you know, dividing it into quadrants. So like, it's a confidence trick almost that you're kind of getting around that mental barrier of getting started.

[15:33] SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And we talk about that a lot in English classes and in reading and writing classes. But we just sometimes don't think about it in the others that it's OK to just put something down. In fact, last night, my best friend's daughter is working on her college application essays. And so she she said she had one. Could I help her?

[15:50]

Could I look at it? I had offered to do that. So I've got we've got Google Docs up. She's looking at the same thing I'm looking at. And so I called her and I said, OK, so let's talk through this. I said, let me read you this first sentence.

[16:02]

And I read it out loud. And she said, that doesn't sound like I thought it was going to sound. I said, OK, so you tell me what you wanted to say. And so she said, and I said, okay, so I hear you doing this. And we would rearrange a little bit. And we worked through her whole essay that way with her actually processing it better.

[16:20]

And she was scared, exactly what you're saying. She was scared that what she had written down was what it had to be. And I said, oh, no, if you don't like something, just take it out. And she said, oh, good. She took out like a whole paragraph. She said, I don't like that one at all.

[16:31]

And so just having somebody to encourage her and be there with her to say it's OK to add something, take something off, change what you've written. And she ended up with a really strong essay that she wrote. And that's what scaffolding is. I didn't write it for her. She wrote it. I just was coaching her along the way.

[16:50]

And we just do that with large groups of students.

[16:54] SPEAKER_00:

And that ability to gauge where the student is and pull back the scaffolding as we can seems like it's really central to not over scaffolding, right? To not making the scaffolding a constraint, making it something that gets in the way, but something that provides only the level of support that's necessary. So talk to us a little bit about the assessment side. How do we go through the process of figuring out where students are and then adjusting our scaffolding in response to that formative assessment?

[17:20] SPEAKER_01:

So one, you've got to be using formative assessment. You've got to be using it. If you're not using it, you can't do it. I actually think the foundation of formative assessment is questioning. Because what I kept doing last night was asking her a question and then saying, so I hear you say this, is that right? Instead of, I'm sure she would have loved it if I had just said, oh, let's do this.

[17:40]

She probably would have loved it if I had done that. But that wasn't what I did. I was always asking her, what do you think? What do you want to do? How do you want to do this? And let her come up with the solution.

[17:52]

And I do think that we don't do that often enough with students. Because I think that they come up to us, it's Friday afternoon, it's 2.15, we just want to go home. And we've got 40 people asking us questions. And one says, can you tell me what word goes here? And we just tell them.

[18:10]

And when we do that, we're not teaching them to be independent. And scaffolding should always be about helping them be independent. So coming back to them with, well, where can you find that out? Well, I don't know. I just got to ask you, well, you know what you need to figure out. You've got to do two things before you come talk to me and you've got to be able to tell me what those two things are.

[18:30]

The number one piece of advice I give parents is when their kids come home and say, is my homework right? You don't just say yes or no. You say, what do you think? And you go through each problem with them. And again, you're teaching them to be independent. And all of those things are formative assessment.

[18:47]

Now, I also give you some really cute little tools in the book that are in there. But if you're not going to do anything else, it's switching it around where instead of telling students the answer, we ask them what they think is the answer.

[19:00] SPEAKER_00:

Right. Because then we can get into if there's a misconception, if they skipped a step, we can find that out by hearing their thinking, which honestly is a big part of what I encourage principals to do when they're talking with teachers. Don't just tell a teacher what you thought they did well and ask them what they thought of the lesson in an overall way, but get them to actually talk about their thinking and talk you through their thinking so that you're not just delivering feedback and leaving, but you're actually learning something from the conversation. And it Seems very similar to what you're talking about with students.

[19:33] SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and it does take more time. I mean, when I got off the phone with her last night, I tapped my husband on the shoulder. He had his headphones on and he goes, well, that took you a while. Yeah, it did. It took about an hour. And he said, yeah, but I knew it was as soon as I heard you asking her those questions, I knew what it was going to be.

[19:50]

And again, he had seen me do that with his son. So he knew where I was going with it. And he said, you're really good at that. And I said, well, I'm a teacher. Teachers are really good at this. But you have to take the time to do it.

[20:02]

And you don't always have to do it verbally. You can do it in writing, where if they're going to bring you a problem and want to know if it's right or not, have them write you their explanation and bring the explanation back with the problem so you can read that first and then talk to them. I mean, so there's ways that you can use writing to help you with the formative assessments. And then, like I said, there's so many exit slips, entrance slips. I mean, there's all kinds of things you can do. But I really think the idea of your formative questioning is really powerful.

[20:30]

And I'm going to tell you, that also goes back to the planning. Because you've got to plan. Now, you can plan, here's 20 questions I can always use. But you've got to plan them. Otherwise, you don't get it as on the mark as you want it to be.

[20:43] SPEAKER_00:

Questions themselves, you're not going to think of extemporaneously, right? They have to be prepared in advance. Very well said. So the book is scaffolding for success, helping learners meet rigorous expectations across the curriculum. Barbara, if people want to find a list of all of your many other books or get in touch with you about some work together on rigor, scaffolding, any aspect of your work, where's the best place for them to go?

[21:08] SPEAKER_01:

The number one place is my website, barbarablackburnonline.com. There's a little bit of something for everybody. There are over 100 free resources, including a lot of graphic organizers and activity templates that you can use. So you definitely want to spend a little bit of time wandering around. It's got the kind of work I do with schools and school systems.

[21:28]

I do all kinds of things. So you can just find those kinds of things out on there. If you want to get in touch with me, my phone number is posted on the website under Contact Me. You can email me through a form. All kinds of ways for you to get in touch with me on this and all of my other books.

[21:44] SPEAKER_00:

Wonderful. So BarbaraBlackburnOnline.com is the place to go. Once again, thanks so much for joining me on Principal Center Radio.

[21:50] SPEAKER_01:

Thank you, Justin.

[21:52] Announcer:

Thanks for listening to Principal Center Radio. For more great episodes, subscribe on our website at principalcenter.com slash radio.