Learning How to Learn: How to Succeed in School Without Spending All Your Time Studying; A Guide for Kids and Teens

[00:01] Announcer:

welcome to principal center radio helping you build capacity for instructional leadership here's your host director of the principal center dr justin bader welcome everyone to principal center radio i'm your host justin bader and i'm honored to welcome to the program today dr barbara oakley and dr beth rogowski

[00:20] SPEAKER_00:

Dr. Oakley is professor of engineering at Oakland University in Rochester, Michigan. Her research involves bioengineering with an emphasis on neuroscience and cognitive psychology. Dr. Oakley is an internationally recognized expert on learning and on creating high quality online materials for massive open online courses or MOOCs. With Terry Sanowski, she teaches one of the world's most popular MOOCs called Learning How to Learn.

[00:43]

Dr. Beth Rogowski is professor of education at Bloomsburg University of Pennsylvania. In addition to completing post-doctoral training in neuroscience, she has 14 years of experience teaching English language arts to middle schoolers in rural and urban public schools. And they are the authors, with Terry Sanowski, of Uncommon Sense Teaching, Practical Insights in Brain Science to Help Students Learn, which we're here to talk about today.

[01:08] Announcer:

And now, our feature presentation.

[01:10] SPEAKER_00:

Barbara and Beth, welcome to Principal Center Radio.

[01:12] SPEAKER_02:

It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you.

[01:15] SPEAKER_00:

So excited to talk about some of the insights from brain science because our profession is starting to get the reputation that we know a lot about that we don't use. We know a lot about teaching and learning. We know a lot about how the brain works. We know a lot about best practice, but we often don't put that into practice. So in the very title of the book, you acknowledge that you say that much of what you talk about in the book is uncommon sense. What did you see as some of the mismatches between what we know and what we do as a field?

[01:46] SPEAKER_01:

I think one of the most interesting aspects of learning is that we haven't really taught people how to learn before. Isn't it unbelievable that people can go through 12 to 16 years of education and never have a single course on how to learn? And that is going to be changing significantly because the OECD, the World Economic Forum, They're finally putting at the top of their list of skills that are the most important skills for people to learn is learning how to learn. And so it's pretty clear that it's going to also become something that PISA and OECD will be testing for. So this is a good thing to be getting ahead on the wave and getting within the curriculum good information about how to learn effectively.

[02:41]

And I think with Beth, we've really taken a lot of this information, I think, as Beth will agree, and made it so it's accessible, as you know.

[02:51] SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. And I'm just, so many things are going through my mind right now. I'm first thinking of The idea of how when you understand how the brain learns and that all begins with a neuron and trying to get neurons connected, you understand that there's no way for learning to take place unless you have a lot of repetition. And for some reason, we've got away from having students practice But we see it all the time that students are willing to practice for their sports and do, you know, 100 dribbles or hurdles or whatever it is they have to do. But we don't require that of our students.

[03:43]

And our students really need that practice. And they need the critical feedback from teachers in order to learn something, remember it, and then refine their skills.

[03:56] SPEAKER_00:

I'm struck by how frequently I'm coming back to this theme as I talk with different authors of certain practices kind of falling out of favor because of just the pendulum swings and the trends in education. And we even have phrases for kind of downplaying the importance of memory in learning. Like we call practice drill and kill. Well, clearly we could go too far with drill and kill. We could overemphasize memory. But I think somewhere along the way in pursuit of higher order learning tasks, the higher order thinking, we started to think that memory and learning and repetition were all just kind of bad things.

[04:34]

Take us into some of the neuroscience on memory, if you could, because I know you go into a lot of that in the book. Has memory gotten a bad rap and how should we really be thinking about memory and repetition?

[04:44] SPEAKER_02:

I'm so glad you brought up drill and kill, because honestly, Barb really took that and thought about it some more. And Barb, do you want to tell them what you came up with?

[04:55] SPEAKER_01:

No, actually, Beth is, again, being too kind. Beth came up with the idea of, and this is really fundamentally important, drill leads to skill. So, and we know it does. We know it when you're playing a musical instrument, when you're learning a foreign language, when you're learning sports of any kind. I mean, drills, intelligent drills. And this often means interleaving drills.

[05:25]

And what do I mean by that? We often think, oh, if you're drilling somebody, you're just saying two times, four is eight, a hundred times. That is not at all what good drill to skill is. Drill to skill is like interleaving all the different patterns of the multiplication table so that you begin to see the relationships between numbers. Like, I can't speak...

[05:50]

Portuguese if I use Google Translate. I can't speak math if I'm just using a calculator. I mean, it's the same sort of idea. We need to get that practice and drill, which isn't always fun. But you can kind of make it fun with some good exercises. But we definitely have gone way overboard.

[06:14]

I mean, for thousands of years, people thought the only way you learn was by memorization. But that's obviously not true. We need understanding. But then, now the pendulum has gone too far. I remember a student, I gave a statistics test, and the student had roundly flunked it. And he comes up to me and he says, I don't see how I could have flunked this test.

[06:39]

I understood it when you said it in class. And the thing is, we've gone so overboard with the idea that understanding is the be-all and end-all of learning that we forget that if you can't remember what you understood, you don't really understand it. So there is this middle ground, and I think this is what neuroscience is leading us back to. And another important issue is that there are really two...

[07:09]

I'm simplifying. There's really two... ways to remember things. And one is through that declarative system, which you use to recall facts.

[07:20]

But the other is through that procedural system, which you use to recall facts, but also to understand complex patterns. And that procedural system, that type of learning, these memories only develop through lots of interleave practice. So you begin to see the patterns. And unfortunately, in the 60s and 70s, with this idea that, as Chomsky came up with, all rote learning is bad. he threw, and others like him, the baby out with the bathwater. And indeed, starting in the 1970s, we have begun to see that even within families, intelligence scores go down.

[08:06]

And that's no surprise because, look, if you throw out half the way the brain learns and remembers and does things by throwing out the important element of habitual learning, you are naturally going to make it more difficult for children to learn.

[08:24] SPEAKER_00:

I wonder if we could talk about the working memory aspect of that, because I've had many arguments with people over the value of learning the multiplication facts, you know, that at a certain age, at a certain grade level, like kids need to learn their multiplication facts. And I did not as a kid. I did, you know, I learned my multiplication facts well enough to, you know, kind of be able to think through problems, but not with fluency, right? Like I still to this day cannot rattle off all of the multiplication facts as quickly as I would like to be able to. And I found that many people seem traumatized by memories of maybe drills that were taken too far. But like I've even seen a belief that any kind of repetition or practice is going to be traumatizing to students.

[09:08]

And certainly we can think of inappropriate ways to teach anything. And certainly there probably are inappropriate ways that have been used to teach anything. But what's going on there? And what relationship does this have to the idea of working memory capacity?

[09:22] SPEAKER_01:

So I'll dive in and then I'll hand it over to you, Beth. When I talk with my engineering colleagues from China, from India, from the Middle East, they are appalled. They can't believe that we don't teach kids the multiplication tables. And when I look at all my colleagues in engineering, where are they from? They are, by and large, never from the U.S.,

[09:48]

And it's like that in many of the scientific fields. And in fact, when I was in Vietnam, I met the son of my daughter's graduate school advisor, which she was studying statistics. And, you know, this fellow said, normally my father won't take on American students. They just don't have, or American raised through the American educational system students, because they simply don't have the capability to easily and fluently handled mathematics. And it's really when teachers expect that learning the multiplication tables is going to be traumatizing, you better believe their expectations will be fulfilled. But in most, in many of the countries of the world, for example, in China or Japan, it's like a no-brainer.

[10:42]

Everybody does this kind of thing. So, I think it's different if you talk with educators, as opposed to if you talk with professionals in the STEM disciplines. And most of them are like, they either don't know or don't believe what is going on in the American educational system.

[11:03] SPEAKER_02:

Well, and I was just talking about this with my students recently because we were talking about working memory. And the sad thing about working memory is that you can't expand it. We're limited to about four pieces of information at a time. And what happens when we get more than that? Students start to raise their hand. What did you say?

[11:27]

What was that? Can you repeat that, please? Or worse yet, they'll just begin to tune out and it's the overload of it all. And so we're really limited by these four balls, four pieces of information. And that really isn't very great. But what is great is that we can expand our long-term memory indefinitely.

[11:51]

We just need to load up more. And that gets us back to drill to skill because the more frame of reference we have, the more we can connect new information to what we already know. And what's been great is that, you know, we teachers talk a lot about the importance of prior knowledge, prior knowledge, prior knowledge. And I just never really understood the importance of prior knowledge enough because it just seemed to be a cliche for us. And then when you understand how the brain operates and you understand, well, we can really only hold four pieces of information. But if we have prior knowledge...

[12:29]

we can understand so much more and it opens the floodgates to learning.

[12:35] SPEAKER_01:

So just to build exactly on that, if you know the relationships, you know, the multiplication tables and you've really had them in grades. So they're pretty fluent, pretty easy. Then what happens is when you get to fractions, oh yeah, 4 divided by 2 is 2. 8 divided by 4 is 2. You know, you can very easily see and imagine those relationships. If you don't have that fluency in your habitual system so you can easily and intuitively pull those relationships to mind, you have to hold more in working memory.

[13:13]

And there's plenty of evidence that students with lesser capacity working memory, and I count myself among them, are greatly advantaged by having that information available. well uh well ingrained in their procedural system it's so i originally trained as a linguist so i know that when i first memorized vocabulary lists you learn that through your declarative system you know it you can pull it to mind but you can't Speak it fluently. You face someone who's, you know, the speaker of the native language and you're like, duh, how do I say hello? How are you? But if you practice with that and get it into that procedural with those procedural sets of links.

[14:04]

then you can intuitively and quickly pull them to mind without having to use your working memory. And you can speak that foreign language using your working memory to formulate your thoughts instead of to remember what the doggone words were. And it's very, very similar when you're learning a method science.

[14:27] SPEAKER_00:

I recall one argument that our colleague Natalie Wexler makes in her book, The Knowledge Gap, is that much of what we have been thinking as a profession of as skills that students have, like the skill of finding the main idea of a passage, much of that is not actually skill. It's just a function of knowledge. And I hear you making kind of a related argument. That in order to do more of the kind of higher order, quote unquote, skills that are required in many disciplines like STEM careers, what we need is not necessarily direct practice in those higher order skills, but we need the foundational knowledge that allows us to think in the blocks that can kind of hold those pieces that are used at a higher order and not have to be bogged down by basic multiplication and division calculations, things like that.

[15:18] SPEAKER_01:

So then the question might arise, we want our students to be working at the highest levels of Bloom's Taxonomy. So why aren't we working in that area? And the problem is, it's like saying, I want you to go climb Mount Everest. So I want you to be hanging out because I want you to be at the top of Mount Everest. So skip all that other stuff about trekking through the foothills and getting up there. Beth came up with a really good analogy.

[15:49]

She got a picture of an iceberg. Our knowledge that we actually see in people is like the top of that iceberg. But to get that knowledge, you've got to do all this underlying work. And teachers don't get credit for that. I mean, you don't get credit for grading multiplication tables. or, you know, this kind of stuff.

[16:14]

And so the tendency is to say, well, let's just jump to the top and ask these higher order questions. But that's just not how the brain really learns. Well, you have to build that nice, solid foundation. And a lot of it's invisible and a lot of it teachers don't get credit for, but that's what they're That's the beauty of what they're helping people to achieve in their lives is this underlying work that is often invisible, but is so invaluable.

[16:47] SPEAKER_00:

Well, I meant to ask about this earlier because it's from chapter one, but let me ask about the idea of students fooling themselves into thinking they're learning. Well, certainly I think one thing we can do is kind of reintroduce the idea of knowledge and memory as really foundational. One of the things that I think your book really contributes is just clarity on how learning works. And you talk early on in the book about how students can fool themselves into thinking they're learning when really they're not. Take us into that a little bit, if you could.

[17:19] SPEAKER_02:

Well, students have a tendency when they're studying to just continually look over their notes. And they almost can just when they're taking the test, they tell me that they can just see their notes. They know what page it's on. They know where it's at. They know that they've underlined it twice. But they're just like, I have no idea what the answer is.

[17:39]

I don't understand it. What I think is going on is that they're just reading through it so often that they build this sense of familiarity. Sort of what Barb was going off on a little earlier about this idea that just because you understood it doesn't mean you learned it. And that really is the crux of this idea that I have test anxiety. No, what happened was when you were studying it, you always had your notes in front of you. but when you went to take the test, there were no notes.

[18:16]

And now you can just kind of see where the answer should be, but you don't know what it is because you weren't actually practicing that information. Does that make sense?

[18:26] SPEAKER_00:

It sounds a little bit like a student who's playing basketball. If they are in the big game, they take their free throws and they miss every one of them. And they say, I don't understand. I've watched a thousand YouTube videos about how to shoot free throws. I should be hitting every single one. What's going on here?

[18:41]

So it sounds like you're saying there's a mismatch between the task that's being asked of them on the test and what they're doing to practice or what they're doing to prepare for that test. Is that right?

[18:51] SPEAKER_01:

Correct. And the important thing here is that we are not teaching our students how to learn. I mean, I'm an expert on learning, and what do I do? I sit there, I'm learning something, and I go, I got it. I got it, you know? And then I look at it that evening, or I look at it the next day, and it was just in my working memory.

[19:13]

And I know enough to know that it's easy to fool myself. But our students don't know to recheck, to retrieve and check and see whether they know things because we don't teach them that, that vitally important skill of retrieval practice. And just a few simple ideas about, you know, how to learn effectively can make any, I mean, we hear from what over 3 million people have taken learning how to learn and And I can't tell you how many people have written me and said, I never knew this stuff. And it made an enormous difference. Now I'm graduating from medical school. Now I'm, you know, I've got my graduate degree in this or I'm making it straight A's in high school where I never made anything before.

[20:02]

Just a few simple ideas about how to learn effectively can make an enormous difference in children's and students' and learners' lives.

[20:12] SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Well, let's talk about a few of those strategies, if we could, because this is certainly a book for teachers to become aware of things that they can do in their classroom and things that they can let their students know about how to learn. So what are some of your favorite strategies and kind of insights for helping students understand how to learn?

[20:31] SPEAKER_02:

So we oftentimes in class, we will assign students to make flashcards. But really what we need to start doing is making sure that they use these flashcards. And one of the things that we as teachers do, we'll tell them to do things, but we need to allow more of our class time in actually doing it. So I like to present a piece of information and then I like them to practice it and even practice it with a partner. and then prove to me that they can do it before I give them more information. That idea that they need to practice it and I can't just start talking and keep talking and keep talking for 20 to 30 minutes without a rest and expect that my students will have remembered everything I've just said, especially when I just told you that they can keep about four pieces of information in their working memory at a time.

[21:31]

So what has been so revolutionary for me in my instruction is I use Pear Deck. And the reason I use Pear Deck instead of Nearpod is because Nearpod doesn't allow me to have any speaker notes. And my working memory is not good enough. I need to have...

[21:49]

speaker notes so that I know what my key points are and make sure that I get all those key points when I'm teaching. So we need to have that for our students and build that into our instruction and not just start being like the Charlie Brown teacher, wah, and just expect our students to hang on our every word and remember it because they won't. We need to build that practice into our instruction.

[22:18] SPEAKER_01:

Oh, you should see. So Beth did this wonderful video on how to use exactly, you know, Pear Deck. And it's just, she's so funny. She's just a, you know, but we did Uncommon Sense Teaching, which is a video MOOCs, Massive Open Online Courses for teachers on how to do retrieval practice in class and how to integrate some of these ideas. And one thing I have to say, so there's a great video amongst those videos. Teachers often make the mistake of, oh, you know, retrieval practice, that's for simplistic things like math facts or anatomy terms or vocabulary.

[23:00]

nothing could be further from the truth and in fact terry does a wonderful video and terry our our co-author of uncommon sense teaching is one of the leading neuroscientists in the world he's one of only 12 living human beings who's simultaneously a member of the national academy of medicine, of sciences, and of engineering. I think I can legitimately say he's quite brilliant, but he gives this wonderful discussion of how if you're trying to learn math at a really high level, we're talking beyond a doctoral level, mathematical ideas, Retrieval practice is excellent for that because what you're doing is you're trying to retrieve these ideas and put them together in your mind and you're strengthening your conceptual understanding through this retrieval practice.

[24:00]

So I think Natalie Wexler's work in just helping us to understand the importance of having foundational knowledge also indicates that foundational knowledge isn't just a bunch of facts. It's facts that also build together to build a greater comprehension of things. And that kind of thing actually grows from simple retrieval practice. So, you know, so don't discount the value. But I do also have to say that teaching students about the Pomodoro technique is, they love this. It's not necessarily, maybe you want to do it a time or two in your classroom just to show them how to do it.

[24:45]

But I have literally gotten people thousands and thousands of emails over the years from people saying, the Pomodoro technique has changed my life. And it's this very simple idea of you get rid of all distractions, no ringy dingies on your cell phone or pop-ups on your computer, set a timer for 25 minutes, focus as intently as you can for 25 minutes, and then take a five-minute relaxing neural break, which does not involve picking up your phone. and sending a text message or something like that, because that relaxing break, you need to not overwrite the neural connections that you've just made, and you can best not overwrite that by simply relaxing your brain for five minutes.

[25:35]

So 25 minutes of focused attention with the Pomodoro technique will help get students, retrain them off of that, you know, sort of random social media. My brain hops around all the time. You give them, it's a mental exercise in retaining their focus, but then afterwards you let them kind of diffusely relax all over. And this, there's so many neuroscientific, you know, insights that have lent legitimacy to why this technique is so powerful that it would take me the rest of the time to talk about all these neural findings. But just trust me, the Pomodoro technique is really a powerful tool to help students in their learning.

[26:25] SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I love that one. I've heard it quite a bit on, you know, just as a time management strategy for adults, but you're saying you actually have taught teachers to do this in the classroom with their students to use a timer and say, work for X number of minutes and then we'll take a break.

[26:37] SPEAKER_01:

You can do that. But the main idea for doing this is to teach students to do it at home on their own. That's the main thing. Because this is, we want students to become independent learners. And the Pomodoro technique helps teach them how to focus their mind when they're off working independently. You can almost think of it as kind of a working meditation.

[27:02] SPEAKER_00:

If we're going to provide learning experiences that give students the chance to develop knowledge, to put things into their memory, to develop those pathways, what's probably the most important thing for teachers to do in order to make sure that the right things happen during their classes?

[27:21] SPEAKER_02:

Yes. And I'm glad that some of my educational comrades are joining me in saying that lesson plans are necessary. And so often my students, now I teach future teachers, and so often my students will go in to observe teachers or work with our experienced teachers. And they'll be like, but Dr. Wachowski, they don't have any lesson plans. And I have quite a few friends who are master teachers.

[27:54]

I've seen them teach. And sure enough, they fall in that category. And I'm like, it's not that they don't have lessons plans. It's just that they've been doing this for six to 10 to 12 years. So they've gone past the declarative system and they're now into the procedural system where it is just second nature. Their long-term memory is so jammed packed with the lessons that they've been giving that they can do that.

[28:27]

And then I have to tell them, on the other hand, you've had zero practice teaching. So, yes, indeed, you need to write a lesson plan and you need to actually script out the questions that you're going to ask your teachers, because too often what we're asking students are low level, just retention questions that don't get them thinking further. And we'll ask, once students have demonstrated that they understand the answers to these low-level questions, we don't build upon that too often. So that's what we really need to do with our lesson plans is to actually write them and follow a framework of direct instruction. And direct instruction sort of got a bad rap for a while there, but it really is...

[29:15]

the way to go with instruction. Direct instruction is that gradual release of responsibility, the I do, the teacher presents some information, we do, the teacher helps practices with the students, and then you do, and the students actually perform and are able to work independently with the material. And we need to get back to that type of instruction so that we can do inquiry-based and other types of student-centered instruction, which we call student-directed. Because in that type of learning, you're putting the students as the directors of their own learning, but they are still novices and we need to really take over the reins. So in answer to your question, I think What we really need to get back to is lesson plans and actually thinking of teaching that foundational material through direct instruction so that students are capable to do inquiry based on their own learning as they become more expert learners.

[30:22] SPEAKER_01:

And just to back up what Beth is saying, in the most recent edition of The Economist, there's a wonderful article about how less advantaged countries are now beginning to make some real strides in their educational systems. And when they looked into why, it's because they began to use scripted, directed instruction. And some teachers, of course, don't like to think of the idea of scripts. It's like, oh...

[30:51]

You know, where's the spontaneity? But I mean, the thing is, there's plenty of room for spontaneity. And we watch plays all the time. Plays are written as scripts because they take a lot of insight and they convey ideas that you know you just couldn't convey if you just said get let's get a bunch of actors and you are on screen i mean that's like something you can do but it's not a great play it's not going to make a great play and it's not going to make a great class if you just go in unscripted and i i think beth Beth was kind of in charge of lesson plans and that aspect of, and I think it's, she really clearly lays out the same kind of ideas that, you know, they're using in a lot of not only disadvantaged countries, but

[31:47]

are now beginning to realize that they also need here in the U.S. because it's unbelievable. I mean, we have, what is it, something like only 30% of fourth graders actually feel comfortable reading at grade level. There's clearly some mismatch in how we need to be addressing how students learn effectively. And I think really well-calibrated, well-designed instruction plans are behind that.

[32:19] SPEAKER_00:

It's been really interesting to hear some of the parallels between Tom Guskey's work, Benjamin Bloom's work, Natalie Wexler's work, and what we've talked about today. So if you could wave a magic wand and get educators everywhere to rethink one concept or one practice, just in closing, what would that be?

[32:40] SPEAKER_01:

Have all your teachers take professional development inexpensively using our uncommon sense teaching specialization on Coursera.

[32:49] SPEAKER_02:

We have over 70 videos that are anywhere from 10 to 15 minutes, and they talk about things like formative assessment and even bullying. We hit on a lot of the topics, lesson planning, and then, of course, the neuroscience behind all of the best teaching practices. And you can put one of those in and and have a discussion afterwards.

[33:15] SPEAKER_01:

They're really funny and they have super great top notch animations that really help you see what's going on in a simple way. I mean, you can see how how neurons work by just using the analogy of space aliens. But we had a lot of fun and you will see Beth. popping out of a carton, a big box and all sorts of fun things that we were doing. But it's, I think it's, that is the perfect scripted, you know, like lesson planned set of videos because it took us what, several years to really put together nice, tightly organized, well-organized materials that you can quickly grasp in a way that sticks to your memory because they're so freaking funny and they're really visually animated.

[34:08] SPEAKER_02:

And Uncommon Sense Teaching is really the book that I wish I would have had when I started teaching. But of course, the neuroscience wasn't developed then, so we wouldn't have had it. But what we address in Uncommon Sense Teaching are the topics that are timely whether it's your first day or your fifth or sixth year into teaching, everybody wants to improve their craft, and that's what it's going to do. It's not going to revolutionize necessarily, but it's going to definitely improve where you're at and take you further in your teaching, which will translate into student achievement.

[34:52] SPEAKER_01:

And give you a really different perspective on how your students... And also a neurodiverse. I mean, a lot of times it's really hard for people to understand the challenges experienced by some neurodiverse students. But when you look at learning from the perspective of how is the brain really working, then you start to see very much more clearly why the attention will wander of a person with ADHD.

[35:24]

why a person, you know, with dyslexia or subclinical dyslexia may have challenges trying to sit and read some complex math descriptive problem. You know, it's all of these kinds of things can really, I think learning more about our neurodiverse students is, is I think what lies in the immediate future because there's so much. And the problem is that we, we often put all our our students in a cookie cutter box and we're like you know everybody needs to learn cooperatively well i'm sorry sorry but if you're on the spectrum then maybe working on a team is going to be really challenging for you. And it's not something that you can just practice and necessarily get a lot better at.

[36:19]

Any more than a visually impaired person can get better at seeing just by practicing. So I think all of these ideas are very important for our teachers because there's Even the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, the Psychological Association is beginning to understand that people aren't just like, it isn't on off. You have dyslexia or you don't. There's a lot of people who have subclinical aspects of dyslexia. which means it's harder to read, but you're not diagnosed with that. So understanding some of these aspects, I think, are really very, very helpful for teachers.

[37:02] SPEAKER_00:

And if people just Google Coursera Uncommon Sense Teaching, they'll find that, and we'll put that in the show notes as well. And the book is, of course, Uncommon Sense Teaching, Practical Insights in Brain Science to Help Students Learn. So Barb and Beth, thank you so much for joining me today on Principal Center Radio. It's been a pleasure.

[37:22] SPEAKER_01:

Justin, it's been a real pleasure for us. Thank you so much.

[37:26] Announcer:

Thanks for listening to Principal Center Radio. For more great episodes, subscribe on our website at principalcenter.com slash radio.