Black, Brown, Bruised: How Racialized STEM Education Stifles Innovation

[00:01] Announcer:

Welcome to Principal Center Radio, helping you build capacity for instructional leadership. Here's your host, Director of the Principal Center, Dr. Justin Bader. Welcome everyone to Principal Center Radio.

[00:13] SPEAKER_01:

I'm your host, Justin Bader, and I'm honored to welcome to the program today, Dr. Ebony Amatola-McGee. Dr. McGee is Associate Professor of Diversity and STEM Education at Peabody College of Vanderbilt University, and she's the author of Black, Brown, Bruised. How Racialized STEM Education Stifles Innovation.

[00:36] Announcer:

And now, our feature presentation.

[00:38] SPEAKER_01:

Dr. McGee, welcome to Principal Center Radio.

[00:40] SPEAKER_00:

Thank you so much. Happy to be here.

[00:43] SPEAKER_01:

I wonder if we could start with a little bit of an origin story behind this book. What did you see happening in higher education and in STEM in particular that led you to the body of research, the body of work that ultimately resulted in this book?

[01:00] SPEAKER_00:

Well, I myself am a, I like to joke to say that I'm a recovering engineer, but I got my bachelor's and master's degree in engineering and I worked for corporate America for a few years before I transitioned into the PhD program. And something happened to me while I was at those corporations. I was being really paid well. I was on the cover of you know, the diversity magazines. I was always going to historically black colleges to recruit, but I've still felt very undervalued in terms of my intellectual abilities, my ability to do STEM. And I thought, wow, I'm in this position.

[01:44]

I'm making lots of money. Why am I so miserable? And I felt really guilty about being miserable because, you know, I had reached the quote unquote pinnacle of success. working for a top 50 corporation. So when I got laid off right after the September 11th attacks in 2001, I gave myself a little moment, you know, after I picked myself up off the floor, because, you know, I was miserable without a job in the beginning as well. And I decided to reinvent myself and also understand if my perspective was similar to other black and brown folks out in corporate America or even getting their STEM degrees who it's not the STEM that is the problem.

[02:36]

You know, not to say the STEM doesn't need a curricular makeover, but the real problem was being perceived and valued as a STEMer in one's field and one's discipline and the continual obligation to have to prove one's intellectual intelligence, intellectual ability to be seen as a designer or an innovator or, you know, a creator of something and not just tokenized as, oh, we got to have, you know, one or two black folks coming up, but we're really not valuing them in the ways that we're valuing white, male, heterosexual, able-bodied men. So that kind of led me to getting my PhD in mathematics education and really seeing that I wanted to get more into engineering than mathematics and really understand the dynamics of how high achievers, because we often talk about what happens to folks who drop out, and that is a worthy pursuit because too many people of color

[03:49]

are dropping out of STEM higher education, sometimes even in the K-12 atmosphere. But what is the cost of achieving in a field where you have to survive a brutal academic climate and kind of brutality among proving oneself over and over again?

[04:12] SPEAKER_01:

And I wonder if we could, I'd love to explore some of the similarities and contrasts between your experience in industry and in higher education. And you were an electrical engineer, is that correct?

[04:24] SPEAKER_00:

Yes, I was an electrical engineer. But in my undergrad, I went to a historically Black college. I went to North Carolina A&T State University. So I didn't have to worry about feeling and experiencing being less than in educational environments. But I got this scholarship, the Jackie Robinson Foundation Scholarship. And not only do they give us money, they get checked in.

[04:51]

And every year we got to fly to New York for this really fantastic star-studded weekend where we could meet our counterparts. And at those meetings, I heard the stories of my Black Jackie Robinson colleagues who were at predominantly white institutions And it just seemed as though they couldn't do enough to prove their capability. Like it was never enough. And I just thought, wow, I'm really happy to be in a place and space where I am celebrated, not just tolerated.

[05:29] SPEAKER_01:

I'm interested in exploring the experience of not feeling respected, right? So you have the degree, you have gotten the job, but the respect from colleagues, what was that like in terms of the collegial atmosphere and how you were treated and respected or not by colleagues in industry?

[05:48] SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it was a real shock because the recruitment to get me there you know, really was phenomenal. I'm telling you, these companies can recruit the heck out of, uh, black and brown candidates. Like they, you know, they go all out with the nice dinners and the fancy hotels and et cetera, et cetera, but they don't prepare you for the toxic environment that you exist in. So not just me, I want to talk about my students. They talk about, um, you know, really being a designer, but not giving the credit for the design. So, you know, I'm thinking about a colleague or one of the students that I was, he went to an internship.

[06:36]

Now he was at an HBCU, but the internship experience was so toxic that he actually ended up getting a degree and becoming a manager at Starbucks. So what we're doing now is we're losing a population of talented STEMers These are folks who actually get the degree and within five to seven years, they are not doing STEM like for the rest of their lives. So we're losing out on that type of creativity and ingenuity. In higher ed environments, you know, I've seen students have told me stories about how they walked into, let's say, a thermodynamics classroom and the room just hushes. And people are looking and they can't believe that this big, large black man is coming into advanced thermodynamics class, even to the point where the teacher asked very politely, because, you know, we're polite about our racist activities.

[07:39]

Hello, sir. This is advanced thermodynamics. Are you sure you're in the right class? Can I see your registrations? Can you just imagine coming into a class and just by virtue of your black skin and maybe even your big maleness are being questioned if you just even deserve to be in this place? Are you in the wrong place?

[08:06]

So this is constantly perpetuated in very sophisticated ways. I mean, there's no cotton on the door anymore. No, let me take that back. people still do come back to their dorms and find cotton on the door. But what we're seeing is a much more subtle, much more covert, but much more insidious type of racism that folks have to experience. So if that student went to his dean and said, this is what happened to me, you can retell that story and say, well, that professor just was checking to make sure that you were in the right class, I don't see what the problem is.

[08:49]

You see what I'm saying? And that is what, just imagine having daily or weekly experiences like that.

[08:56] SPEAKER_01:

Right, these subtle or not so subtle and continuous kind of low-level messages that you don't belong here or are you sure you're in the right place or why don't you do something else with your life? Like that kind of continual message. And this is all after all of the other things milestones have been passed, right? This is after gaining admission to a prestigious program. This is after the AP coursework in high school and gaining access to that. So a lot has already gone right up to this point to even get to, or obstacles have already been overcome to even get to that point.

[09:32]

And yet still the message is, what are you doing here? Are you sure you're in the right place or you don't belong here? And you've heard this over and over again from many, many people that you've interviewed.

[09:43] SPEAKER_00:

Is that right? It's even after the PhD. It's not just after the AP exam. It is after getting a PhD in electrical engineering at Georgia Tech. It is after completing the postdoc. It is after getting tenure, you know, being one of the first African-Americans to get tenure in their field, in the engineering field at a tier one institution.

[10:09]

It is after becoming a full-fledged professor Winning full, winning tenure, winning full, it is after being in a Dow chair, which gets hundreds of thousands of dollars in grants every year. Like it never ends. Like there's never a point where people get to finally breathe. But it doesn't look like that outwardly because the same people that I just mentioned are the ones on the front of the university newspaper. Those are the ones on the front of the website. Those are the ones who are always getting the diversity awards, et cetera, et cetera.

[10:48]

So we exist in this space where we're rewarded, or I would say tokenized for our blackness and also punished for our blackness and our brownness at the same time.

[11:05]

So there is a large body of research I'm going back from the late 1990s that talks about stereotype threat, where one would get into a testing environment and be told that black people really don't do well on this test. And I just kind of want to warn you of that. And then they give you the test and thus you actually underperform on the test, right? So that's stereotype threat. But what I saw with these high achieving black and brown students is they were not underachieving. As a matter of fact, it was a drive to kind of prove this testing space wrong.

[11:52]

It was a drive to be excellent in their fields, to serve as a counter story to the stories that have been told about them. But what I realized that was happening is you didn't have to prime the stereotype anymore. I mean, STEM is such a place where the stereotypes are just in the air. So even if a student is at home alone or an employee is at home alone doing homework or designing something or preparing a report, you always think about the stereotypes. how tight do I have to get this report to ensure that no one is going to come after me or doubt my abilities, you know, doubt what I have to say in this report.

[12:45]

So it's like omnipresent. You don't have to prime for it. It's in the air. It's in the stem air that we breathe and it's residue on black and brown bodies. So we walk with this. And what I'm saying is the argument that I'm trying to make is being academically successful in a person of color who is motivated to be successful, to prove themselves capable in fields is a horrible way to achieve.

[13:21]

And what it's doing is it's creating these mental and physical health complications where black and brown doctors, lawyers, engineers, scientists are dying six to seven years sooner than their white counterparts. So these are people who live in the same neighborhoods as the white lawyers, white doctors, white engineers, have same access to health care. You know, we're not talking about a lower class. And the only thing that scholars have been able to determine is It is the constant burden of racism that is wearing one's body down slowly, but still a premature death nonetheless.

[14:16] SPEAKER_01:

So we're not talking just about a hurt feeling here and there. We're actually talking about measurable health impacts on one's body as a result of this kind of ongoing stress.

[14:28] SPEAKER_00:

That's exactly what we're talking about. But because these engineers are getting all these accolades and getting some awards, we don't position them as being bruised. Because after all, these are the people that we want our children to be. And it's not to say that there's something wrong with being successful in STEM, but STEM has to change because what STEM and other highly competitive white male fields are doing is they're creating these coping measures where one has to continually be resilient. See, resilient isn't supposed to be like an everyday thing, right? You're supposed to be able to access resilience when you need it and have external sources of support to also assist in that.

[15:24]

But with black and brown bodies, we say, nope, You got to be resilient. You got to be gritty. It's all internal. And thus, we leave the system untouched, unchanged. System still is individualistic, ultra-competitive, lily white, mostly heterosexual, military grounded, upper to middle class, nationalist, and able-bodiedness. I could probably say five more.

[15:52]

So it is thus on the obligation of for black and brown people to change while the toxic racist dem culture remains the same.

[16:04] SPEAKER_01:

Dr. McGee, there's this myth that I think we inherit from movies that's kind of all around us that if bad things happen to people, that can actually be fuel for their great achievement, kind of a superhero origin story that some injustice, some violence, some terrible experience early in life perhaps becomes kind of the genesis of this story of triumph. Does it really work like that? Or how does that compare with what people actually experience? Because I think it is difficult for us to imagine those of us who have had basically no baseline level of those kinds of messages. I think about my experience as an undergrad.

[16:48]

I don't think I ever had anybody kind of look at me funny and say, are you sure you're in the right classroom? I don't think I've ever had anybody, you know, question whether I belonged or whether I had the ability to be where I was. So I'm getting the sense that this is not a form of useful fuel for people to kind of capitalize on. What's wrong with that myth that we have from the movies?

[17:12] SPEAKER_00:

So that myth helps structural racism and us seeing black and brown pain and despair and and just kind of wishing it away with hard work and meritocracy, right? So it upholds the very values of what it means to be in a system where white folks are at the top and most privileged, and Black folks are barely seen as human. So there's a dehumanization process. And movies and media in general helps this process to thrive. Thrive. And what it does is it says that we expect you as a Black body to defend yourself just from your own internal functioning against racism, sexism, the wealth gap, just a lack of material resources, schools that are deprived of resources.

[18:18]

We just expect you... to rise from all of that. Now, if that actually was a, if that actually did lead to success, black and brown people would be the most successful people on the planet, right? So we know that that does not work.

[18:39]

And we have the lowest of a myriad of statistics to prove that working oneself to death just leads to death.

[18:53] SPEAKER_01:

I'm so glad you mentioned support because if we think about the resources that are available, the people that are on hand to provide support, that seems like one of the most glaring differences in the supports that are available to students of color in higher education or in industry. What does the mentoring landscape look like? What does that kind of support for a student who maybe is the only person of their race in their department? Help us think about the role of mentoring and those support systems.

[19:27] SPEAKER_00:

So I have a mentoring program. I start off by saying that because I have a very tough critique on mentoring. So Mentoring is very similar to meritocracy as I've seen it played out in many institutions. Mentoring is not a do it, fix it all solution for all the problems that are facing black and brown bodies as they try to live and learn in STEM fields. Mentoring often teaches one how to assimilate into a culture that was not designed or nor is maintained for their bodies, their identities, their authentic selves. So what many mentoring programs do is ask you to leave at the door your racial identity, your ethnic identity, your cultural assets,

[20:29]

things that make you proud, things that your grandmother told you, you know, stories of Black folks reimagining a future where we are the first to go to Mars. They tell you to leave all that at the door and try to be as white, as proper, as et cetera, as individualistic as possible. And only then may you might get some success. So I really feel that mentoring programs need to definitely be more race conscious. And I'm not to say that how do you write a good cover letter to get a job is not still a critical component of a mentoring program. My mentoring program also teaches one how to write a cover letter.

[21:19]

But I also teach you how to navigate and network as people. the only Black woman in your department, because one needs to know how to do that as well. That is also critical to the retention of Black engineering faculty. And I also, we talk about things like structural racism. We talk about implicit bias, but we talk more about explicit bias, right? Because implicit bias often you know, is the easy way out for folks to just say, oh, I didn't know I was being racist.

[21:58]

And I mean, maybe in the police department, it's important to understand implicit bias because you're making split second decisions about one's life or death. But being a professor where you're spending hours, you know, sometimes years with the same students and and you're projecting the same racist ideologies and values, that's not implicit. That is very explicit. And we don't need you to cover up by saying, oh, it's unconscious. I didn't know what I was doing. So those are the components of a mentoring program, but mentoring programs fall short because ultimately we're trying to teach people how to be successful in a world that they had no part in designing, that they have no part in maintaining, in a world that particularly is finding difficult for like big tech.

[23:00]

I'm talking about the Microsofts, the LinkedIns, the Googles. They're finding it difficult to see black and brown bodies as STEM employees. So this is the world that we're asking folks to mentor them their ways through. So mentoring programs stop short. We really need to dismantle the whiteness, the racist, the sexist, those kind of structures to make it a more equitable system.

[23:31] SPEAKER_01:

I wonder if we could talk more about some of the features of those systems that operate in that way. Because know it seems like a big part of the dynamic is simply the numbers you know if a department is 99 white or if a department is you know 75 or 80 percent male uh you know so many of the the relevant factors just go unthought about you know there's just so little attention being paid to some of the things that affect people. How do we start to change things or what can people look for to do differently or to start to change when the numbers change so much more slowly, when representation changes so much more slowly?

[24:17] SPEAKER_00:

Yes. So my first answer is there's no algorithm. There's no quick fix. There's no, if you just do these five things, you will have the anti-racist STEM environment. So when I said previously, just a few minutes ago, that the whole STEM structure needs to be dismantled and rebuilt with people of color leading the effort, that is what it's going to take. But I do understand quick fixes are what we're looking for.

[24:53]

But there is no piecemeal way to do this. The other thing about representation is if you want a more diverse STEM, fill in the blank, you know, I'm going to say if I want more black engineering faculty, to be in predominantly white universities, that means that some white folks are going to either have to give up or share their power. And that is something that is very difficult to do. Because once you have power, the whole capitalistic enterprise is to maintain that power. So these things aren't pretty. I wish I could tell you to do these five things.

[25:47]

But if I could tell you, if you do these five things, you'll have an anti-racist environment. We'd have lots of them. So this is going to be the long, hard work. of those who designed STEM culture. Remember, STEM departments were designed in the 1940s, 1950s mostly, you know, besides a few elite colleges. In the 1950s, my grandmother couldn't drink out of the same fountain as your grandmother.

[26:17]

So this is the design. Many of these courses were designed in Jim Crow. where it was separate and extremely unequal. So we have to go back there. We have to really revisit our past to how we got to this moment that we have today, where you have big tech saying that they can't find us. They don't know where we are.

[26:42]

I mean, STEM still graduates 40 to 50,000 Black undergrads every year, and you can't find them? Or maybe you just have a very narrow definition of who would fit in your company, your institution, et cetera.

[27:03] SPEAKER_01:

I hear that word of fit or fit. you know, organizational culture. And I think there's a, maybe an attempt to not mean culture in, you know, in the sense of, you know, in the sense of race or in the sense of someone not fitting in that way. But it feels like culture is such a big part of it. How does that idea of fit or, you know, hiring for culture play in here? Because I have to think that it does a bit.

[27:30] SPEAKER_00:

So STEM companies hire, I'm going to just talk about big tech because there are like a real thorn in my side. They hire from the top 25 to 35 institutions, period, right? So first of all, you have to be in a situation where you are lucky enough. I call it luck because we're not talking about the intellectual capability of these students. We're talking about being lucky enough to be in a position where you could be at one of those 35 institutions. And how many institutions do we have across the country?

[28:10]

I don't know the exact number, but you know, it's in the thousands. So you have to be at one of those 35 to even get a look. So now what big tech is doing is they're partnering with HBCUs. You know, this is all post-George Floyd, you know, wanting to make some good appearances. And I mean, I like these programs, but my critique is, okay, don't just have some internships with HBCUs, Historically Black Colleges and Universities, and then still go higher only at the Harvards and the Princetons and the Stanfords and the Yales and the Michigans, the same 35 institutions. But now you want to throw some dollars at some internship programs, but you don't want to really invest in the educational trajectory of

[29:02]

of students at historically black colleges at your corporation. So I just think, you know, that word fit is just a soft, more polite way of saying that we want to uphold certain privileges, institution, and you know, who's at Harvard, like, you know, the percentage of black folks, and you know, the percentage of black folks in STEM. So you're already You know, you're already like privileging and narrowing the pool so low that you can't see the other 35, 45,000 students around the country who are equally as qualified, but just didn't go to a Harvard or Stanford. It's just such a shame. It's such a travesty. And we should be ashamed that we are not holding these big tech companies accountable.

[29:54]

more accountable. I mean, even the police department has 13% of black folks, like tech companies can't even do better than the police. So I have lots of resources. There's information about my mentoring program that I share with Dr. William Robinson, also administration at Vandy. And then I have some mentoring videos and you can find those all at blackengineeringphd.org.

[30:23] SPEAKER_01:

So the book is Black, Brown, Bruised, How Racialized STEM Education Stifles Innovation. Dr. McGee, thank you so much for joining me on Principal Center Radio. Thank you. Thanks for having me.

[30:35] Announcer:

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