[00:01] SPEAKER_00:
Welcome to Principal Center Radio, bringing you the best in professional practice.
[00:06] Announcer:
Here's your host, Director of the Principal Center and Champion of High Performance Instructional Leadership, Justin Bader. Welcome everyone to Principal Center Radio.
[00:15] SPEAKER_01:
I'm your host, Justin Bader, and I'm thrilled to be joined today by my good friend and organization guru, Dr. Frank Buck. Dr. Buck is a popular speaker and consultant in the area of administrator organization and productivity, served as a central office administrator, a principal, and a band director, and is the author of the book Get Organized, Time Management for School Leaders, which is now in its second edition.
[00:42] Announcer:
And now, our feature presentation.
[00:44] SPEAKER_01:
Dr. Frank, welcome to Principal Center Radio. Thanks, Justin. So glad to be here. Well, we have met up a number of times at different conferences where we both talk about productivity, and it's one of our kind of particular interests within the broader world of educational leadership. For you, and I have my own answers to this, of course, but for you, why do you see time management and organization as such crucial issues for school leaders?
[01:10] SPEAKER_02:
Well, first of all, every good thing that we do for the kids in our school and every good thing we do for our own kids, every good thing that we do for ourselves, it all happens through the dimension of time. So if we can get a hold on that, then the sky's the limit as far as reaching our goals. You know, I found when I started teaching that there was more to do than you could do. As an administrator, there was more to do than you can do. And with social media, with the Internet, with email, there are no boundaries on the possibilities. So we've got to make choices.
[01:45]
We've got to have a system that's going to help us get done what we want to get done.
[01:50] SPEAKER_01:
Absolutely. Well, and let's get into the systems that you share in education. Get Organized, and this is a book that has been around for a number of years and has been read by thousands of administrators to help increase their organization and productivity and improve their time management. What are some of the cornerstones of the approach that you teach in Get Organized and in your workshops?
[02:12] SPEAKER_02:
Well, really, I tell people that I only do two things during the day, which strikes them as it just can't be. But I check the tickler file, and there's every piece of paper that I'm going to need to work with today. And I look at my task list and there's everything that at some point in the past I wanted to see again today. So we start with a tickler file, which is just a very simple system. I know you use the same thing. I first saw it when I was like eight years old.
[02:41]
My dad used the system. 31 folders labeled 1 through 31, followed by 12 more folders labeled January through December. And all the paper that's sitting around on your desk, you just ask the question, when do I want to see this again? So this stack of papers that's sitting there because I want to take it to the meeting on next Tuesday, instead of looking at it 37 times a day from now to Tuesday and then walking off and forgetting it when you really need it, you put it in the file for Tuesday, whatever Tuesday's date is. And you earn the right to forget about it. That one thing has made such a difference for so many people.
[03:19]
And then the other tool that I use, a digital task list. It's just, when do I want to see this task? Give it a due date for that day. Forget about it. And on the day I want to see the task, there it is. And that sounds simple, and it is simple, and I really feel like it's got to be simple as busy as we are.
[03:38]
We need simple systems that are going to handle the complexity of our lives.
[03:42] SPEAKER_01:
Absolutely. Very well said. I think that simplicity also confronts us with some choices that we might prefer to put off because the decision that you articulated there, when do I want to see this again, including never is a good answer for a lot for a lot of what's probably cluttering our desks and our to-do lists. But not making that decision is going to come back to bite us over and over and over and over again. So I think that's such a crucial...
[04:10]
for every productivity thing that comes after that. And I think about if I've been gone for a while, I was gone for a lot of the last couple of months on different trips, and I come back and my desk is just covered in mail and in stuff that was unfinished before I left and new things that I printed off and had to work on as soon as I got home and books and all these different things. And I realized that if I couldn't make decisions about everything in that pile, I couldn't make decisions about anything in that pile because I didn't even know what was in it. And I think that that clarity that comes from the organization helps us make so much better decisions in terms of how we use our time. What are some of the key issues that come up for you in working with principals around time management? Because, you know, we're all busy.
[04:57]
We know the job is demanding. We know we're always going to be slammed with work of all kinds. help kind of orient us on that issue of time management, knowing we're always going to be busy, we're always going to have too much work to do, as you said. Where do we start on time management?
[05:13] SPEAKER_02:
Well, you know, you talked about decisions, making decisions about things. Principals, and not only principals, but everybody in every job in this 21st century environment, we're overwhelmed with emails. And it's not uncommon for somebody to have 5,000 emails that have stacked up over the years. It's like they have every email that's come to that computer since the day it came out of the box. My email is empty every single day and it's simply just a matter of making decisions about what does that email mean to me. One thing that I've done since, I guess, 2001, back when I was using Outlook, and you could take an email and just drag it over to the task button and it automatically put it on your task list.
[06:01]
That saved me so much time. Drag it over, decide what day I want to see it, and there it is for me. So making those little decisions is crucial. I think we've also got to make decisions about what we're going to do and what somebody else is going to do. In other words, delegation. But I feel like we've got to get it all in front of us first.
[06:26]
When you can see all of your choices, you make better choices. One of the things that makes my book different from so many other time management books that are on the marketplace Other than the fact that it is written with the school leader in mind is the emphasis that is placed on repeating tasks. We're in a cyclic business where we do the same things every year at the same time, the same things every month at the same time. And so I developed an entire chapter on how to set that kind of thing up. And then when you start to see how many repeating tasks you have, You can make some decisions about which one of those you want to delegate to. And we have more people we can delegate to than anybody else on the planet.
[07:09]
We have students. Good first grade teachers know this. You go in a good first grade teacher's class and If somebody's watering the plants, somebody else is changing the calendar date on the board, somebody else is feeding the gerbil, 20 different kids are doing 20 different tasks while the teacher stands back and smiles because that's 20 jobs that she doesn't have to handle. So one of the crucial things is being able to identify what somebody else can do and let other people have a stake in the game.
[07:40] SPEAKER_01:
Well, and I think we think that because we're the administrator, anything that's coming to us can only be done by us, or at least we would have delegated it a long time ago if we could. But I think that's great to look at teachers and look at how much that they are successfully delegating every day to their students just because they know they don't have time to think about feeding the goldfish and watering the plants. And if you look at the nature of those repeating tasks, it seems like some of those decisions aren't decisions that you have to make about every single case. They're policies. They're policy-level decisions that you can kind of structure. So what are some of the structures that you recommend that people use?
[08:22]
You mentioned your to-do list and your tickler file, or on the Principal Center website, people will see the future file. Same thing. What are some of the key structures that can help people take those decisions and turn them into good habits so that, you know, we're not just getting organized once? I think that's one thing I really appreciate about your book is if people think, well, I don't have time to get organized, you know, it's not something you do once in the summer when you have time. It's, you know, it's kind of a way of life. What are some of the other pieces of that approach?
[08:54] SPEAKER_00:
Yeah.
[08:54] SPEAKER_02:
Well, like you say, habits. And for me, like I say, my habits, I check the tickler file. I put things on that digital task list. And so when a task sort of hits my radar, so to speak...
[09:09]
One question I've asked myself for years is, is this something I'm just going to do one time and that's it? Or is this something I'm going to do now and next year about this same time? And if so, then it goes on the list with repeat annually and a due date so that when I do this task and check it off next year at that particular time, I'm not going to have to rethink that. It's It's going to be there for me. So that's one of the hallmarks of my system. Another one is, you know, any time management book that you read is going to talk about taking big projects and breaking them down into little bitty bites.
[09:48]
You know, how do you eat an elephant? And the answer is one bite at a time. A lot of different authors have written about that. Charles Hobbs, probably my very favorite one, who wrote Time Power many years ago that taught me really how to use a paper planner. He talked about that so much. And I think David Allen's work has really pushed that to the forefront with having people ask themselves, what's the successful outcome?
[10:11]
what's the next action so one of the hallmarks of what I do is have you break things down and on my task list if I have a particular project I'm working on within one task you're going to see in the task line what that finished product is. What's the name of the goal? What's the name of the project? Together with, if I was going to stop and work on that right now, exactly what would you see me do? What phone call would I need to make? What person would I need to get in the car and go see?
[10:43]
What email would I need to send? And then in the notes section of that task, what's all the other information that I want to have in front of me when I do that task? When I call Jim What are the five questions that I want to ask him? Where can I write those down? I put that in the little task section, along with where is other supporting material? If I have something in Evernote, or I have a file folder, or I have a digital document with something else related to that project, exactly where is that?
[11:14]
So within that one task on my digital list, there's everything about that project.
[11:20] SPEAKER_01:
Well, I think that reduction in the number of places that you have to look, that reduction in the number of steps, and also what you highlighted there with having the outcome clear and the next action clear, but not necessarily 800 things in between. Exactly. That's not necessary from the outset.
[11:38] SPEAKER_02:
Because, see, I think that trips us up. There are a lot of things where you don't know what all the steps are from the get-go. You've got this wonderful idea, and the next step is to go talk to the superintendent. Well, I don't know what the next one after that's going to be. He may say, this is a great idea. I'm behind it 100% and money is no object.
[12:00]
He may say, this is a great idea, but I don't have any money. Or he may say, ah, why don't we wait a year on this? The answer to one of those questions, that one conversation with the superintendent, now sends that project in three entirely different ways. But if I know the very next step on that project, and I word it so that it's doable, so that when I look at my list, it says, yes, this will be easy to do, and then go on to the next one, then I'll actually do it instead of procrastinating. When I look at a task and it says improve the math curriculum, Well, forget it. That's going to sit there for the next four years.
[12:41]
But if the goal is to improve the math curriculum, maybe we're going to write a math curriculum guide. And that's the project. And the next step on that is to send Ms. Carter an email because I'd like to meet with her and get her thoughts on it. You know, when I look at my list and it says email Ms. Carter, I'll actually do that.
[13:00] SPEAKER_01:
Yeah, absolutely. And I think we're talking about something that's easy to lose sight of the importance of little differences like that between improve math curriculum and email Ms. Carter to set up a meeting about talking about improving the math curriculum. The difference between something that's just a topic and something that's actually doable as an action. When we're busy, when we sit down at our desks and we think, okay, I've got five minutes, I need to get some things done before this next meeting starts. That's that time when we can either devote all of our thinking to, where am I?
[13:34]
What do I need to do next? What's the next action on this? But if we've already decided what that next action is, we can just do it. And that's why you see people able to get things done when they implement the systems that you teach. One thing I wanted to ask about with the second edition of Get Organized, which is...
[13:53]
has definitely achieved, uh, critical, uh, acclaim and, uh, and classic status in, uh, in this field. Definitely a book that, uh, that will continue to, to be a great resource for people for many years. Um, what are some of the, uh, the updates that you have in the book and what are some of your, uh, your thoughts around the evolving digital tools? Cause you mentioned Outlook earlier. And I think that, you know, for a lot of people was a great system, you know, drag the, uh, email to your calendar. If it's an appointment, drag it to your task list if it's a task.
[14:21]
But now we have iPhones and we have district email systems that don't talk to our phones in some cases. And personally, I see people using much more of a patchwork of tools that they've kind of chosen themselves. It's not just one system. So tell us some of the new thinking that you have around technology and then also around the book itself.
[14:42] SPEAKER_00:
Yeah.
[14:42] SPEAKER_02:
Well, Justin, you really hit the nail on the head. Technology is the one key word that caused that second edition. First edition came out in 2008, and I really walked a fine line between paper organization and digital organization. There was a chapter devoted to if you use a paper planner, read this chapter. There was the next chapter paralleling it in every way, shape, form, and fashion that if you organize digitally, use this one. This edition really pushes the digital organization.
[15:16]
Secondly, I used as examples back in 2008, the Blackberry sent to Outlook. Because anybody who was anybody back then, that's what you were using. The iPhone was just sort of coming into its own there. Of course, now...
[15:31]
Who's using a Blackberry? You know, it was a great tool. And so, you know, you pick up my book now, that original one, and even though the methodology in there is still very, very sound, when you say Outlook and Blackberry, you automatically think, ah, this is outdated. This is not for me. So we've taken the technology piece and really updated it. What you'll find is I've really tried to stay away from talking about specific pieces of software because they come and go, with the exception of Evernote.
[15:58]
There is an entire chapter devoted to Evernote. Other than that, you get the methodology that's going to work no matter what kind of digital list you use, no matter what kind of cloud-based service that you use. So my idea is that if somebody has the book, and they read my blog, they get the big ideas in the book, they get the overall arching picture in the book, and then on the blog, here's the latest and greatest tools and exactly how to set those up. So it's sort of the one-two punch. Also, between that first edition and second edition, I've taught this material, gosh, hundreds of times. And each time, as you well know, When you teach somebody something over and over and over, you get better about how you present it.
[16:45]
So I feel like the explanations are even clearer in the second book than they were in the first.
[16:52] SPEAKER_01:
So where can people find your blog if they want to follow you online and get those blog updates, follow you on Twitter, all of the online options that we have now? Where can people find you online?
[17:02] SPEAKER_02:
The one-stop shop, frankbuck.org. That's my website. You'll see a little link that takes you right to my blog. 11, 12 years worth of blog posts. So chances are, if you've got a question about organization or time management in any shape, form, or fashion, you can find it somewhere on that blog.
[17:24]
There's ordering information from the book. And one thing that I'm offering is I have a monthly newsletter. And for the people who sign up for that newsletter, we're giving you a little sneak peek at this second edition. What you'll get is basically most of chapter one that talks about the tickler file and how to set it up and examples. With that alone, you could be up and going same day with the tickler files. And then it outlines the other things that are in the book and has the ordering information.
[17:55]
The book is published by Routledge. It's also available on Amazon.com.
[18:01] SPEAKER_01:
All right. Well, we will link that up in the show notes. And I have to give that my highest unqualified endorsement for Get Organized, Time Management for School Leaders, second edition. And this is the one with the blue cover, correct?
[18:15] SPEAKER_02:
Absolutely. It has the blue cover. The 2008 was a white cover. So this is a light blue. And I hope that the title doesn't throw people off. You know, when you see school leaders, some people think, oh, that's the principal.
[18:29]
That's the superintendent. But I make it very clear when you read those first several pages that a school leader, that's a very broad brush. The classroom teacher who's also sponsoring the school play, they're sponsoring the newspaper, the school newspaper. And there are all those to-dos that go with it and all those emails and it can be overwhelming. I think any teacher, when they look at what they do during the day, we could say they're a school leader, and it's for them. And then I got an interesting email from my friend Barbara Blackburn, who you have also interviewed on this program, I know.
[19:08]
Barbara was one of the initial reviewers, and she said, Frank, this is a book for anybody. It's not just school people. So for once, instead of us taking a business book and trying to adapt it to schools, now we've got a school book that maybe the business world will want to adapt to themselves. So it's a little turnabout there.
[19:32] SPEAKER_01:
Well, Frank, it has been a pleasure to speak with you today for Principal Center Radio. And I just want to thank you for joining us and thank you for all you do to keep us on track and to keep us focused on getting more done. If you could leave us with one word of advice for getting more done, for staying organized, what's the final word? The final word?
[19:54] SPEAKER_02:
Gosh. Write it down. That was something that I started doing, I guess, back in high school. And over the years, the tools have changed. But write it down so it's not in your head. Let the system handle it.
[20:07]
Very well said.
[20:08] SPEAKER_01:
Well, thanks again. Thanks for joining me on Principal Center Radio.
[20:11] SPEAKER_00:
It was a pleasure, Justin. Thank you. And now, Justin Bader on high-performance instructional leadership.
[20:17] SPEAKER_01:
So high-performance instructional leaders, what did you take away from the conversation that I just had with Dr. Frank Buck? You could tell that I was having a lot of fun talking to a good friend and a fellow productivity enthusiast. But regardless of your personal interest in productivity, this is something that matters so much for the work that we do every day on behalf of students. So I want to really encourage you to check out Dr. Frank's book, Get Organized, Time Management for School Leaders.
[20:44]
The second edition is just full of powerful and very clear things that you can do to get yourself organized. And I'll make a special offer here, audio only. So if you are a podcast listener and you've been kind of on the fence about this for a while, if you would like to join me for the High Performance Instructional Leadership Network, which is our Thank you so much for having me. So we're not going to post this in writing anywhere, but if you are listening to this episode of Principal Center Radio, just mention that when you sign up, and I will be happy to ship you a copy of Dr. Frank's book.
[21:38]
It's truly something that should be on every school leader's desk or bookshelf. It's one to refer to to make sure that you have good systems in place for managing the work that's on your plate. I also want to echo what Frank said about school leadership being more than just the principal and the ideas in this book, the ideas that we talk about at the principal center apply to more than just the people who have administrator as part of their title. So look more broadly, look at who could benefit from this type of information in your school. Maybe they could benefit from reading Get Organized. Maybe they could benefit from listening to Principal Center Radio, but look for ways to build capacity for instructional leadership in your school, beyond yourself, beyond the people who are officially on your administrative team, because the single greatest resource that we have is our people.
[22:30]
And the more of the people who work in your school that you can get involved in leadership, the better off your students are going to be.
[22:37] Announcer:
Thanks for listening to Principal Center Radio. For more great episodes, subscribe on our website at principalcenter.com slash radio.
