Cultivating Exceptional Principals: A Guide for Principal Supervisors to Hire, Develop, and Retain School Leaders

[00:01] Announcer:

Welcome to Principal Center Radio, helping you build capacity for instructional leadership. Here's your host, Director of the Principal Center, Dr. Justin Bader. Welcome everyone to Principal Center Radio.

[00:13] SPEAKER_01:

I'm your host, Justin Bader, and I'm honored to welcome to the program Jasmine Kular, Bruce Fraser, and Lisa Riddell. Jasmine is an Assistant Superintendent of a large metropolitan school district and is a faculty member in the College of Professional Studies Educational Leadership Department at Albany State University in Georgia. Bruce Fraser is an assistant superintendent with a Metro Georgia school district, and he's been in education for over 25 years, serving as a teacher, principal at the elementary and middle school level, and director of human resources. And Lisa Riddell recently retired as executive principal of school improvement in a large metropolitan school district in Northern Virginia. She has over 32 years of experience in schools and districts as a teacher, assistant principal, principal district director, executive principal, and educational consultant. And they are the authors of the new book, Cultivating Exceptional Principals, a guide for principal supervisors to hire, develop, and retain school leaders.

[01:09]

Lisa, Jasmine, and Bruce, welcome to Principal Center Radio. Well, take us into a little bit of the origin of this book. Talk to us a little bit about the need you saw in the field for this book on Cultivating Exceptional Principles.

[01:23] SPEAKER_00:

Well, the three of us are currently when we first started writing this book, we're all three of us were principal supervisors at the time. And we just had a lot of conversations about our role, about the challenges we face supervising principals. Leading leaders is not as easy as one may think. And we just had some conversations around how there's a lot of literature missing when we're trying to go get resources and get professional development for us in terms of how do we grow as principal supervisors. There's a lot of resources out there for principals, but we really didn't find a whole lot for principal supervisors. And the other conversations we had too was, you know, we were very aware of how much the role of the principal has changed over the last 10, 15 years and the role of the principal supervisor, not so much.

[02:10]

And there's been a lot of conversations about changing the role, but there hasn't been a lot of resources or professional development out there. So that's kind of where the book really came from, that there's a really need for principal supervisors to have some kind of a resource to really help them be able to supervise principals better in this new world of the changes that have happened with the principalship.

[02:29] SPEAKER_01:

And to piggyback on that, I think through our conversation as well, our individual but collective experience was that we had to learn through experience. We either took the experience we had as principals and the relationship we had with our principal supervisor, and that was the only experience we had with supervision of principals. And so moving into the role of principal supervisor, you lean into, well, this is how it was done with me, And then the experiences you gain along the way in terms of, well, that worked well, or, well, that could have gone better. And through trial and error, you eventually kind of hone in on what might be an effective way to lead principals. And so we really felt that through the experience we had acquired over, I believe now I'm in my seventh year supervising principals, you start honing in and focusing on what really is an effective way to lead those who have been effective in their career.

[03:26] SPEAKER_02:

You know, and in our experience, collectively supervising principals and also sharing the day to day challenges and hurdles and barriers of what we were experiencing, not only to coach up the people that you have, but also how are you identifying new folks that really want to sit in that principal chair and building the pipeline, especially as more and more people are leaving the profession.

[03:51] SPEAKER_01:

Now, it's interesting that we're using the term principal supervisor rather than the term superintendent. And I would guess probably numerically, most principal supervisors are superintendents, but you've focused more intentionally on the role of direct supervisor of the principal who may not be the superintendent. And I think in your case as well, you're in larger districts where there are multiple layers between principals and superintendents, and you're in that layer that immediately supervises principals. What are some of the unique challenges of that role that would be distinct from the role of the superintendent? And what are some of the gaps in the profession? Because I think we're all aware of teacher preparation, principal preparation, superintendent preparation, but you're at a level that often doesn't get a lot of attention.

[04:36] SPEAKER_00:

Correct. Hence the book. I would say there's so many gaps, really, which is why this book came out. I mean, the way it's structured, the different chapters, one of the chapters we talk about is providing professional development to principals. When you think about the role of a principal supervisor, I mean, there's so many different things that the principal supervisor is responsible for. And we really talked about it from the lens of how do we be proactive.

[04:57]

A lot of times it's a reactive thing, like a crisis happens and the principal supervisor's called to support, but being proactive and building strong leaders. And a lot of that comes through professional development. So how do we even train principal supervisors on how to provide quality professional development to principals? I mean, we pull principals out of schools all the time for meetings, but what's the purpose of those meetings? And how do we make those meetings really productive where principals walk away feeling like they've They've learned something that's going to enhance their toolkit and make them better principals for their schools. So I would say that's just one example of a gap that's missing is we do so much operational work with principals at the principal supervisor role.

[05:39]

How do we be proactive where we're really, truly, intentionally building principals and contributing to their leadership skill set and helping them become better principals for their building? But nobody teaches us how to do that. So that's one of the gaps.

[05:52] SPEAKER_01:

And I think key there as well is how do we help them grow and become better as building leaders? Because so often there are structures or mechanisms in place for a first year principal, for a second year principal. We have, you know, professional learning, we have mentors, we have ways to help them acclimate and ride that learning curve as they begin their role as principal. But then typically when someone's a principal for five, six years, it's like, You have this, you've got it. And sometimes they're left to their own devices for professional growth. And so how can we as principal supervisors be intentional, be very specific with the feedback we provide in a way that it's not only seen as valuable, but seen as necessary for their continued growth?

[06:38]

Because we know leadership is that asymptote where you never reach perfection. You're never one day going to wake up and say, I am now the perfect principal. I am now the perfect leader. And so there's always room for growth and development. And how can we effectively support principals in that?

[06:53] SPEAKER_02:

Justin, you touched on the fact that people who are reading this book may be from a very small rural school district where it's the superintendent that's also mentoring and supervising a principal or a larger district like ours where you do have different layers. But regardless of the size, the location, principals are still facing some of those changing complexities that are different from 15 years ago, social media, politics, some of the decisions. And so what Jasmine and Bruce were also saying is that PD, that professional development really needs to be updated to the needs of principals today. It's still ensuring that principals are instructional leaders, that they are visionary, that they're using the data, that they are ethical decision makers, that they're inspiring and being able to name what's making the principalship so complex with our brand new principals or principals that may be new to your school district but have experience somewhere else, or perhaps they've been reassigned to a different level or a different school and have their own unique

[08:04]

nuances and challenges within their building. So it's really, this is a practical guide that we came together with our own experience as well as very current research on how to help any supervisor or mentor or coach out there for a principal.

[08:21] SPEAKER_01:

I definitely want to talk more about professional development and collaboration among principals. I wonder if we could talk briefly, though, about the issue of, we'll say, questionable choices. And probably this hasn't happened with any principals that you supervise. But I feel like one of the issues that principal supervisors often have to contend with is, boy, I have a principal who made a decision that I'm just not sure where they were coming from with that. It just did not seem like good judgment, did not seem like good common sense. And it strikes me that common sense and good judgment are among the most important traits of a principal, but also potentially the most difficult to teach and possibly even to hire for.

[09:04]

And I wonder if I could get your perspective on judgment and how that shows up in your work as a principal supervisor who often is called in to potentially deal with issues where maybe the judgment was a challenge. I'll just chime in quickly with the fact that I don't believe I've dealt with that in about an hour. It's all the time that's what comes up and it's judgment but I think those are those coaching opportunities because when any building leader uses questionable judgment or makes an error in terms of a decision, it's unintentional. They're well-intentioned decisions that happen to go awry. And sometimes it's because the building leader's focus is on their school, their students, their community, and that's where it should be. And sometimes they don't think broader than that.

[09:57]

They're not necessarily thinking through the district lens or perspective. And that's where, again, you have those opportunities to really engage in that conversation. And when the principal feels as though as a principal supervisor, we are there to really support, help, and we're not there to beat them up. They're going to beat themselves up as much as we ever could. And so we're there to come in and help them see through a different lens so that they do make a better decision in the future.

[10:23] SPEAKER_02:

I'll add in any building leader, any leader in a school district is making six million decisions every single day. And in a moment, they are really doing it based on their experience. And as Bruce said, with all well intended, sometimes when you make a bad decision, being able to reflect and course correct is the most important piece to that. So those are some of those conversations that you often have with with school leaders.

[10:54] SPEAKER_01:

And that's where providing that feedback is critical as well because you want the individuals to have an opportunity to reflect on that feedback. You know, there are moments where we all need to just apologize for making a poor decision. And sometimes the leader or any of us may not be ready to apologize immediately. But when you have the conversation, you have the relationship, you allow an opportunity for reflection, and then you revisit because feedback's not a one-time event. And so we don't just address it and move on. You have an ongoing conversation.

[11:27]

And through that process, the individual is able to realize there may have been a better manner in which to handle this situation.

[11:35] SPEAKER_00:

you know, one of the chapters in the book is all about feedback. And the reason we put that chapter, you know, we debated, we talked about, is that a chapter or do we just put that as a section, as a subheading in one of the other chapters? And we ended up landing on that it needed to be its own chapter because that's such a big part of what principal supervisors do. It's easy as a principal supervisor. One of the challenges we talk about in the book is most times in most districts as a principal supervisor, you're not in the building every day with your principal. When I was the principal, I was in my building every day.

[12:06]

I saw my teachers. I was able to give them feedback. I was able to have tough conversations because you're in the building every day with them. As a principal supervisor, one of the challenges is you're not with them in the building every day. So how do you build relationships and trust proactively? Because that piece is so important before you start going out there and giving feedback.

[12:24]

But the other piece we talk about, too, is sometimes easy to look the other way and not give feedback because you're not really in the building every day. So that's why we felt very strongly that we needed to have a whole chapter by itself on feedback, because that's such a significant part of what principal supervisors do with principals.

[12:41] SPEAKER_01:

And I think we're dealing with a group of individuals who are used to providing feedback. And feedback is a completely different skill set. And also understanding that when you're dealing with principals, each principal is an individual, which as Jasmine alluded to, that relationship is so critical because if you have a first-year principal who may be... struggling a bit with confidence they're brand new they're just learning the job that feedback may not be well received because they're so concerned about job security and then on the flip side you may have someone who's overconfident because they've been in the same building and community for a decade and their perception might be whoa what do you have to add to me i know this community they trust me and so you have to know context matters and you have to know the individual their environment and how best to proceed with that feedback It strikes me that often the issues of judgment come up, not on the routine and kind of main predictable responsibilities of a principal, but in handling the high stakes and rare situations, you know, the emergencies, the big complaints, the things that might end up in the news media or on social media.

[13:49]

How do you think about preparing principals and providing professional development for principals? in dealing with the unknown, because I think that's one of the biggest challenges is just anything can happen and you're it in a school. And speaking of your chapter on professional development, what kinds of things do you emphasize in principal professional development?

[14:09] SPEAKER_00:

One of the things that we ended up doing that I think we do talk about in the book is looking at some of those leadership competencies. I know we've talked a lot about instructional leadership. Of course, that's a big role that principals play is the instructional piece and how you look at data and all those things. But there's another piece that I feel like is really missing now in schools, and that is just providing professional development on how to lead. Things like decision-making. We don't typically teach how to make decisions or how to problem solve.

[14:41]

I mean, those are really significant skill sets needed for leaders. But somewhere along the way, we just assume that you're in a leadership position. You know how to do those things. And They're not innate. It's something we have to learn and we have to build and we have to work on. So one of the things that we strongly believe in is when we're looking at working with leaders and principals, really taking the time when we're providing professional development that, yes, the instructional leadership piece is incredibly important.

[15:08]

That's why we're here is to improve student achievement. But on the other hand, learning how to lead people. And like I said, some of those skill sets, an example is decision making. The example I just talked about, it usually falls back into decision making before you quickly make a decision. And now, you know, five hours later, we're on the news. Let's backtrack and think about what made you make that decision.

[15:28]

What are the pros and cons? And what did you think about this? And did you think about that? And so that's another big learning piece that, like I said, we don't we've kind of gotten away from that. And I don't know if we ever did as long as I was a principal. I don't think I ever got training on those things.

[15:43]

You just kind of learn on as you go on the job or you learn on your own if you're reading an article or you get out of the educational world and you venture into the business world and you start reading some business resources. That's how you kind of create your own leadership skill set. But within education, I feel like that's missing. Hence, again, the book.

[16:01] SPEAKER_02:

I was going to say in our book, too, there's a chapter about building a pipeline, identifying talent and really growing your own and building an aspiring leadership program and we provide suggestions on the types of interview questions and scenarios. Because in an interview, regardless of whether it's education or a different field, the interview questions also allude to what's to come and what's expected on the role. Some of those types of case scenarios and decision-making scenarios are what are helping us to hire principals to be able to do that.

[16:36] SPEAKER_01:

And then I would just add, as you talk about the fact that some of those decisions when it comes to those rare or those, you know, unprecedented events, and sometimes you question decisions, what we try to do is really focus on that collaborative piece. that so often principals try to build a collaborative community within the school. Teachers work together. They work on teams. All of those quotes about if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together.

[17:04]

But then we expect principals to lead a building by themselves. And so building into collaboration where principals talk to each other, they meet with each other, They sit down and when something happens in school A, well, then they debrief with school B, C, and D. So if something remotely similar happens in that school, they've already talked through a real situation that occurred, what went well. Maybe where there were some missteps, how they can avoid those pitfalls in the future. And so bringing principals together to really capitalize on the experience that each one has, although communities may be different, there's a lot of similarity in the principalship itself. Well, let's talk some more about principal pipelines because certainly the field has experienced a pretty high degree of turnover.

[17:52]

We've talked a lot about teacher turnover over the last few years, but certainly there is principal turnover as well. And sometimes we have principal turnover because people are good leaders and they get promoted or they get offered new opportunities. So sometimes we're not losing people too much. retirement or leaving the profession, but to greener pastures elsewhere. So how do we think about developing people, finding the right questions to look for people who may be good fits for leadership, encouraging them to take steps in that direction? Take us into some of your framework for thinking about principal pipelines.

[18:24] SPEAKER_02:

Well, there's a variety of different ways. We have leaders right in our own buildings and in our school districts that may not even recognize that they want to be a principal. We've all experienced having mentors or someone that see the talent and the skills within you and they tap you and help develop it. So school districts really do need to be proactive to do that. Years ago, you may have had many people lined up to say, I want to be a principal. Now they're looking at principals to say, why would I want to do that job?

[18:56]

So understanding what the role is in providing those opportunities to experience that greater perspective, how you're helping and growing your school and your vision and the student achievement. So you really do need to set up an aspiring principals program so that people can experience what it feels like before they actually interview and sit in the chair and you are really preparing them for the role, for everything that we've already discussed, the complexity of it, what to expect for decision-making and what they may experience walking through the door on day one. So growing your own is one piece to it, as well as that professional development that we've hit on so much here. PD for aspiring leaders and current leaders is what's going to keep principals, how we're going to retain them also.

[19:48] SPEAKER_01:

And I do think touching upon the aspiring principal program type of concept, thinking beyond and thinking, yes, we want to identify those assistant principals who aspire to the principalship and provide them with professional learning. But if you have individuals who perhaps interview and they're unsuccessful, then maybe there's another program that you don't. It's not communicating to them that we have no faith in your ability to learn in the future or to lead in the future, but we're still investing in you. And maybe those who become first year principals, you have a mentorship, but then maybe there's a second year principal program and a third year principal program. So it's really looking at aspiring leaders, but also that succession planning to ensure that we identify talent. And then we continue to develop it along the way so that we ensure the highest probability of success when sitting in that chair as principal.

[20:44] SPEAKER_00:

And one of the things I'll add to that, this is actually Bruce's idea. You know, you have a first year principal academy, you have a second year, you have a third year. But what about the veterans? We have principals that have been principals for 10 years, 12 years. How do we invest in that group? So I think part of that is not just retaining, not just attracting principals and hiring principals, but then it is how do we keep them happy in their jobs?

[21:05]

Because you've been a principal for 10 years. You've been through a lot. So how do we keep that energy alive and how do we keep that desire alive and why they want to be a principal in the first place? So it's the whole, you know, when we look at the principal pipeline, it's from the very beginning of making the profession attractive. We want people to want these leadership positions. Then it's recruiting and then getting them in and having a process to select.

[21:30]

And then once you have them, how do we support them? And then how do we continue to develop them throughout their career?

[21:35] SPEAKER_01:

I think that's so important. And if I think back on my colleagues when I was a principal in Seattle Public Schools, probably the number one source of principal turnover was not retirement. It was not promotion. It was not making a lateral move outside of the district. It was health. I would say most of my colleagues who left the principalship left for health reasons that, you know, the job had gotten to them or, you know, just things going on in their personal lives had gotten to them to where their health did not allow them to continue.

[22:03]

So how do you think about supporting the wellbeing of principals so that they do stay in it for the long haul? If they've been in it for 10 years, that they find sources of renewal, they find ways to make it sustainable. And it's not a job that just choose through people because we know we can't make those pipelines big enough for that. You know, we have got to hang on to the people that we have. So how do you think about that in terms of the sustainability of the job?

[22:26] SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I think one of the wellness piece is very important. I mean, I could not agree with you more. Burnout is real in our field. And one of the things that we talk a lot about, again, that's another whole chapter that we have found really helps is that collaboration piece that Bruce kind of talked about earlier is where we don't want principals to feel alone. A lot of principals who feel burnt out is because they are alone. Yes, teachers feel burnt out too, but if teachers are working in a collaborative team, they have other peers, they have relationships, they're a little bit more likely to stay.

[22:56]

I mean, we know schools that really implement that collaborative culture, teachers tend to stay. Principals is the same thing. When you're a principal of the building, you're by yourself, you're in isolation, you're dealing with every issue, every crisis by yourself, it's a lot easier to burn out. So creating supports in your district where you're really creating a structure for principals to collaborate with each other is a huge, in our opinion anyway, a huge suggestion or tip, if you will, to help with that well-being piece so that principals don't feel alone, that they do feel supported by their colleagues and their peers and they feel that they have another principal friend or peer from their collaborative community that they can talk to, they can vent to, they can talk to before making a decision. So I think it's about creating a culture at the district level where principals feel that they have each other, but then they also get support from the central office as well.

[23:48]

I think that that's just as important.

[23:50] SPEAKER_01:

And then I would just highlight the fact that when it comes to feedback and when it comes to the relationships and knowing your principals, You have to help them balance their work and their personal life because it is so easy to 24 seven. You are just thinking about the principalship. You go to bed dreaming of a problem. You wake up with a solution. You never really get away from it because it is. such an all-encompassing yet motivating and inspiring position, it's very easy not to have that balance.

[24:23]

And so I know specifically with one principal I can think of where it's like your goal this year is to leave by 5.30 p.m. And then I would call and I would say, are you on the road yet? And initially it was no, I have a few more things to wrap up, but it was really showing that care and concern for them personally, so that they do maintain that balance because I believe it was the book, the ball where it's like, keep your eye on what's important, juggle a lot of balls and you can drop them, pick them up, keep juggling. But if you drop the family ball, it breaks.

[24:54]

And so you want to kind of reinforce that. If you're expecting your teachers to maintain balance, you have to model it as a leader and sometimes as principal supervisors. We also have to provide feedback in that area.

[25:06] SPEAKER_00:

My big pet peeves is sending emails to principals after 4 p.m. Like as central office people don't do that because the minute we do that, we're promoting that. Oh yeah. You're expected to be on all evening and all weekend and all, you know, four P I mean, I know our work still continues or the day still continues, but we really refrain unless it's some type of a crisis type situation. At that point, I'm just picking up the phone and calling that specific principal.

[25:31]

But in terms of sending out an email to all principals that after 4 PM, I just don't, those little things matter.

[25:37] SPEAKER_02:

They talk about burnout and the number three reason people are leaving is for a toxic work environment. So as principal supervisors, we also, just as Jasmine was saying, we need to model that, that we care for our people, that you're building those relationships, that you're giving them some autonomy too to make some decisions. You care for them as people. You understand the complexity of the principalship. And we also, in our book, wrote about how to retain principals. Another aspect of that is even stay interviews.

[26:10]

By the time people actually leave, they have made up their mind why. There is no turning back. But along the way, if you are having conversations about what is stressing you out, why is Bruce's principal staying after 5.30 every single day? How can we help you to make this better?

[26:29] SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I think those one-on-one meetings are powerful with principals. And it also models that when we're doing them, then principals should probably do them with teachers as well. Have some type of a way to garner feedback from principals, whether it's a survey, whether it's in a collaborative setting, meet with three or four principals at a time. But once a year, there needs to be some one-on-one meeting. with principals, just to get feedback. Like, how are things going?

[26:53]

How has this year been? What's gone well? What can we do to support you better? What are some things that you think were unnecessary that we didn't need to do that we could take off your plate? It just allows an opportunity for have that conversation and dialogue. So yeah, couldn't agree more with the stay interviews as a way to retain.

[27:09]

And then also recognition. You know, I think there's a lot of different ways that school districts could recognize principals, really trying to think creatively on what are all the different ways we could recognize principals. Because I'm not saying recognizing is going to keep principals in the job, but it's a multi-layered solution to the question you asked. It's not just one particular thing. It's how do we do multiple different things? And one of them would also be, take a look at your principal recognition program and how can you make that even better?

[27:39]

Yeah.

[27:39] SPEAKER_01:

And I think that recognition piece is critical even when it comes to the topic of feedback. And that's where we're dealing with individuals who have been successful at every level of their career to reach the principalship. If you're consistently giving feedback, which is, I need you to do this, we need to focus here. So this is seven things you need to do. Here are the action steps. You feel the weight of the world.

[28:00]

And so being able, again, as Jessamyn says, to recognize, to celebrate, to ensure that principals feel valued for the work that they are doing, the pace at which they're proceeding and progressing. Because even though they may have a goal of being at point S and they're at point B, D, that's still progress from point A. And so we want to recognize and celebrate their efforts, the gains they've made, because all of us do like to be recognized for the work that we're doing, the efforts that we're making. So the book is Cultivating Exceptional Principals, a guide for principal supervisors to hire, develop, and retain school leaders. Jasmine, Bruce, and Lisa, thank you so much for joining me on Principal Center Radio. It's been a pleasure.

[28:41] SPEAKER_00:

Thank you for having us.

[28:43] SPEAKER_01:

Appreciate it.

[28:44] Announcer:

Thanks for listening to Principal Center Radio. For more great episodes, subscribe on our website at principalcenter.com slash radio.