Having Hard Conversations

[00:01] SPEAKER_01:

Welcome to Principal Center Radio, bringing you the best in professional practice.

[00:06] Announcer:

Here's your host, director of the Principal Center and champion of high-performance instructional leadership, Justin Bader. Welcome, everyone, to Principal Center Radio.

[00:14] SPEAKER_00:

I'm your host, Justin Bader, and I'm thrilled that my guest today is Jennifer Abrams, the author of a very important book that should be on every principal's desk called Having Hard Conversations.

[00:27] Announcer:

And now, our feature presentation.

[00:29] SPEAKER_00:

Jennifer, welcome to Principal Center Radio.

[00:31] SPEAKER_02:

Pleasure to be here. Thank you for inviting me.

[00:33] SPEAKER_00:

So Jennifer, I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about your professional work and what got you to the point where you just had to write this book.

[00:42] SPEAKER_02:

I was an English teacher, a high school English teacher, for a number of years and went into working with new teachers. In the state of California, we called it the Beginning Teacher Support and Assessment Program, and I spent a number of years supporting and coaching new teachers. And what I was noticing, particularly with principals, is during evaluations, during moments of supervision, people were not finding their voice around what really mattered in a way that the teachers that I was working with could listen to or could hear or could make change from. And so I started really looking at how challenging it is to speak to a colleague, to speak to a supervisee, to speak to a peer,

[01:32]

And I started creating workshops around that. And it ultimately formed into having hard conversations, which is extended now beyond supervision, really into collaborative conversations and work with classified and work outside our field of education as well. It's been a really amazing journey trying to help people find their voice around what matters.

[01:58] SPEAKER_00:

Well, I think that's such important work because we've all been told that we need to have managerial courage, that we need to kind of muster up the willpower to go and confront someone when they need it. But I think we don't pay enough attention to making sure that that message gets heard. And I think I was very fortunate early on in my career as a principal. to work with some really terrific people like Yaro Durbin from Washington Courage and Renewal to really learn how to talk to other people in a way that they can hear and that establishes the relationship and gets the message across in a constructive way.

[02:36] SPEAKER_02:

I completely agree with you. How do you stay in relationship with somebody? How do you do something that's constructive? My frame around that is how can you be both humane and growth producing during the conversation so that the person can hear you and knows what to do to move forward. And those are the two, I think, biggest challenges for administrators to be dealing with in such a busy world that they inhabit.

[03:08] SPEAKER_00:

Well, I think that's a great framing of what a hard conversation is. Based on your experience, where do we tend to go wrong when we get into these conversations? What do we tend to do to mess things up so that either the relationship is damaged or the message doesn't get heard?

[03:24] SPEAKER_02:

I think even from the get-go, before one begins to consider having a hard conversation, it's you need to determine whether you've been clear about the expectations that you are working with or under in a group, in teacher expectations, in project deliverables, whatever it is. You're talking to your main office secretary in any organization. You're talking to anybody. What do they think they're doing? at which time do they think they need to be doing it, so that there's clarity of expectations from the beginning. Then the hard conversation has sort of a foundation upon which to even take place.

[04:17]

So that's way before we hope the hard conversation even occurs.

[04:22] SPEAKER_00:

Right. Well, and I think that's hard because sometimes when we feel like we need to initiate one of those conversations, we think, well, they should just know. Why is this not common sense to the other person when it's so obvious to me that this shouldn't have happened?

[04:36] SPEAKER_02:

Yes. And I think that that is such a common thing response during the work that I do in workshops and in coaching is, how could they not know this? Do I really need to spell this out? I can't believe they don't already understand what being a quote unquote professional is. What is with this new generation? It could be about age.

[05:04]

It could be about lots of things. But it does make me giggle. I'm not unaccustomed to hearing that. And yet, I think, and I just wrote a blog, a guest blog on this, Clarity of Expectations Before Accountability. I'm and now really I think isn't going to stop you from having a hard conversation it just sort of really grounds people on and they have to think through things that they might not have presumed they needed to articulate, you know, and really make peace with, you're right, common sense may not be quote-unquote common. We need to be clear with everybody.

[05:47]

And I think that that is a leader's job in many ways is to continue to state what, you know, where we're going, what we hope we can do for children, what our expectations are for the instruction and the social-emotional supports that we're going to be putting into classrooms and into the school. And clarity is critical even before you start the hard conversation.

[06:14] SPEAKER_00:

Well, take us into the next steps then. Once we've established some clear expectations and we've recognized that we're in a situation where those expectations aren't being met, what do we do? Walk us through that.

[06:25] SPEAKER_02:

Well, I think you have to think before you speak. And what I suggest is that you really make... A couple things clear to you, yourself. Have I been clear, number one?

[06:42]

Do I need to make some choices? So there are a lot of questions you need to ask yourself. Am I in a space to hear this? Are they in a space to hear this? We're not doing it in a in a parking lot, you know, on a Friday afternoon. When I have this conversation, two things.

[07:01]

One, how can I say it without trigger words that will alienate them from the beginning? And how can I help them understand what could be next instead of what the behavior is in the present. So one of them is about the humane part of the conversation. The other part is the growth producing piece. So I think I go first to the growth producing. What do you want to see instead of what you're seeing?

[07:29]

And how clear can you be about that? And what supports might you actually provide if that is something that you could be accountable for on your end. And once you kind of know what the challenge is, what the hard conversation needs to be about, which frankly isn't as easy for people to do as it sounds. So that's a real thinking moment. What do you want to have a hard conversation about? How have you aligned it to what they already think is on their plate, number one?

[08:03]

And then how might I say it so it really doesn't alienate or trigger somebody? So those are the two key pieces when I really sort of work with people. And some people are very much oh, I really need to critically think about the what. And then a lot of other people have that down and it's the how. And I think it just sort of depends on who you are and who the person is and where you are and what time it is and the day and the year that you fall into, oh, I better be doing a little bit more kind of strength training or focus on this particular part.

[08:38] SPEAKER_00:

And one thing I want to highlight that I really appreciated from the book is the chapter on finding the professional language to name what you're talking about.

[08:47] SPEAKER_02:

Yes. I spent a lot of time working with administrators, and I continue to, in reviewing things. the wording that has been placed in standards that they use in their districts or in their schools, and finding words that are aligned with those standards that are neutral, that are clear, so that people can really articulate something in a way that is about the work, and not per se about the individual. We've all agreed management is a priority. We've all agreed that this type of instructional practice is what we're going to focus on. We've all agreed on.

[09:37]

And you stay as clean as you can get around professional language that you've already all agreed to. And it becomes less, it becomes a third point in a way. Third point is a phrase that Michael Grinder and Bruce Wellman and Bob Garmston always use. It's not a personal thing. If I'm talking to you, Justin, I'm not talking to you. I'm point one, you're point two.

[10:04]

It's about the profession. It's about the third point, the standards we have. And we can use that common language, not just in a hard conversation, so that when it comes into the hard conversation, it is... It's a normal way of how we discuss the work that we're all about.

[10:23] SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely. And I think there's a tendency when we take ourselves and our work very seriously, there's a tendency for us to see ourselves as kind of the guardians of what needs to happen for kids. I think it's easy to be a little bit too kind of insensitive to other people's commitment to those kind of third points and those shared goals and values when we see that there's a problem and we say, hey, you're not living up to what to me is an obvious expectation. So I really like that you're You're anchoring all of those expectations in something that's outside of the school leader or the person doing the confronting, and that's something that's kind of a shared destination.

[11:02] SPEAKER_02:

I think it's a beautiful way of saying it. It's a sense of shared expectation, values, and goals. It's out there. It isn't personalized. It isn't something I only own. I have my judgment on.

[11:17]

You are not doing what I think is wrong. It is about what's right for students, what the school, the district, the group has agreed to is the best practice to support children. And if we put it out there, and I know you can't see me right now because we're just going on audio, I have my hand up. outside, you know, I'm pushing it out. It's about the work, you know, way out there so that we're all working on it in a shared way with a shared purpose.

[11:52] SPEAKER_00:

So obviously, this is a leadership practice that takes some skill. And for each conversation, it takes a little bit of time to kind of plan that out. Could you talk to us a little bit about why we tend to not have these conversations when we need to and what happens when we don't?

[12:08] SPEAKER_02:

There are so many reasons, intentions that we have around having a hard conversation that are personal to us and are very, I don't know if the right word is normative, across human beings. and I speak to that in the book, I did a bunch of qualitative research, aka interviews with people, where I said, what really stops you from speaking up? And it could be anything from past history of people yelling and people don't want to deal with that, to current situations of timing and I just don't have a bunch of time to mistrust of the other person and where they are in their lives and their ability to even hear it.

[13:03]

There are other honest, really sort of true things that people will say to me. It's on my plate, but it's not as urgent. Um, as I, as other things for me right now, uh, I got other priorities I got to deal with. Um, you know, what if the person goes on stress leave, you know, so there are so many factors that go into it. Um, but I really do believe that we need to become more intra personally intelligent. We need to know what our common tensions and hesitations are.

[13:42]

and then say to ourselves, are these really in concrete? You know, are these like absolutes? And, you know, that's so not, the question is, no, they're not. How could we strategically and conscientiously move past our hesitations in order to do what's right for students? People will say to me, the work that goes into this is so unrealistic, Jennifer. I can't put the time in.

[14:12]

And I smile and I say, how long have you had the problems? And they say, oh, six months, five years, you know. But it's just not realistic for me to really be as strategic and as thoughtful as you sort of expect us to be in the work that you have, that you wrote. And I say, you just told me that you've been dealing with this for six months. Do you not think...

[14:38]

that you have vented about this in the parking lot for five minutes on a Friday? Do you not think that you have discussed this with your colleagues at a team meeting for 10 minutes? Do you not think it's kept you up at night for you know, an hour when you've witnessed something that you did not speak to. My guess is you've put in a significant amount of time already. It just wasn't productive. It wasn't moving the ball forward.

[15:08]

And we got to actually put ourselves to have, put ourselves in a seat and think and have the managerial courage that you just mentioned to find our voice around what matters for students.

[15:20] SPEAKER_00:

Now, I have to say one of the things that really appealed to me about the book was that it's written to not necessarily rely on managerial authority. And I think a lot of the examples that you give in the book would work even when there's no supervisory relationship at all. Could you talk about the peer accountability component?

[15:38] SPEAKER_02:

Absolutely. I was a teacher on special assignment. I have worked in peer to peer relationships where I hope that I have influence on my colleagues and they do on me and that we work with each other because we have great trust and respect for each other. And it is not supervisorial. It is not evaluative. And people will often say to me.

[16:07]

But it's not my job to have a hard conversation. That's for the guy or the gal with the nameplate on their office. They have a business card. They get paid the big bucks to do this. And I respectfully disagree with them. And I say, if you are in a school or in an educational organization working on behalf of students, It is your collective responsibility, every single one of you, to speak up around what matters, regardless of title, regardless of role.

[16:44]

We cannot wait for the principal to come to the PLC or to the team meeting to handle something that is not his or her responsibility. It is the team, the grade level's responsibility as adults, and I say this, if we're over the age of 18 and we're trying to model for the students how people communicate humanely and in productive ways with one another, we have to practice that and it cannot be only the principal who does this. People kind of, you know, put their heads down and they get kind of, yes, you're right. But it takes it takes us growing up. You know what I mean? I have to be the adult in the in the organization and I cannot run to my boss to have that happen.

[17:35]

And that in and of itself is important. is challenging and yet very helpful to move forward all of the good work that we need to be doing for kids.

[17:47] SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely. And I think there are so many things that happen within, say, a team meeting context or a peer-to-peer context that, you know, if you did report it to your supervisor, you know, and kind of have the principal go and talk to the person about it for you, you know, that might deal with it, but that also kind of escalates it. It's not a problem that should be tolerated. It's not a problem that needs to continue. but it just needs to be handled at the level where it's occurring. And I think that kind of peer confrontation is so powerful when it's done right.

[18:15] SPEAKER_02:

I completely agree. And I say, we don't need, and this is my story, it might be a little bit candid, and you can make choices about how you choose to look at it. I think that going to mommy and daddy, aka the principal or some type of supervisor to kind of handle situations is not okay. We need to grow up. We need as adults in schools to model what that looks like. And I would often suggest to people when they come to me and say, you know, can you help me with this?

[18:53]

I'd say, thank you for coming to me. I'm happy to help you. I'm not happy. I'm happy to help you do this on your own. I don't want to fix it for you. I don't want to come in for you.

[19:03]

I'm not going to have the conversation for you. I want to help you have the conversation that you need to have. And people feel very good when they actually stand up for what they need to, but it's a very scary prospect for some people. And when I help people kind of you know, stand up straight and find their voice around what matters. It's a very empowering and positive thing for, you know, for a teacher, especially talking to his or her colleague.

[19:37] SPEAKER_00:

Well, I appreciate the wealth of examples and kind of templates and activities in the book that can equip people to have those conversations well. If people want to get in touch with you directly and maybe talk about having you come out or just learn more about what you do, where can people find you online?

[19:52] SPEAKER_02:

Well, I have a website, www.jenniferabrams.com, and my contact information is at the bottom of that homepage, along with additional information about the book and other resources. And then if you are a Twitter follower, I am at Jennifer Abrams, all one word. And you can contact me there as well.

[20:15] SPEAKER_00:

Fabulous. Thank you so much, Jennifer. It has been a pleasure speaking with you today. And I really appreciate you coming on Principal Center Radio.

[20:22] SPEAKER_02:

Thank you so much for having me.

[20:24] SPEAKER_01:

And now, Justin Bader on high performance instructional leadership.

[20:29] SPEAKER_00:

So high performance instructional leaders, what did you take away from my interview with Jennifer Abrams on having hard conversations? One thing I really appreciated that Jennifer said was that we need to have the expectation that as adults, we're willing to have these conversations with one another. We're not going to kind of go running to mom and dad. And in your school, you probably are the mom or dad, so to speak. And we want those issues to be handled at the lowest level possible because that's where they stay less complicated, they're less hurtful, and they're easier to resolve. So one thing I want to encourage you to do is invest some time in training your staff how to have these conversations with other people.

[21:09]

And you could do that with a variety of different books. And I think having conversations is an excellent one because it's so focused on the work of teachers and having those peer conversations and it gives you very specific examples to follow. But whatever you do, make it a priority because this is something that's going to shape the culture of your school in a dramatic way. If you can have every single person in your school solving problems on a day-to-day basis by having these necessary conversations with their colleagues, that's hundreds of problems that are being addressed constantly that you don't have to deal with and you don't even have to know about in order for them to get fixed. So get your staff on board with this process of being adults, of being courageous and of keeping each other accountable to those shared commitments that you have in your school.

[21:59] Announcer:

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