Handle with Care: Managing Difficult Situations in Schools with Dignity and Respect

[00:01] Announcer:

Welcome to Principal Center Radio, helping you build capacity for instructional leadership. Here's your host, Director of the Principal Center, Dr. Justin Bader. Welcome, everyone, to Principal Center Radio.

[00:13] SPEAKER_00:

I'm your host, Justin Bader, and I'm honored to welcome to the program Joy Kelly. Joy has been a head of school, principal, associate principal, and teacher for more than 25 years, and she is the author, with Jimmy Casas, of Handle with Care. Managing difficult situations in schools with dignity and respect.

[00:34] Announcer:

And now, our feature presentation.

[00:36] SPEAKER_00:

Joy, welcome to Principal Center Radio.

[00:37] SPEAKER_01:

Good morning, Justin. Thank you so much for having me.

[00:40] SPEAKER_00:

Well, Joy, to start things off, let's talk a little bit about what you saw happening in our profession and what needs you saw in our field that prompted you to write Handle With Care.

[00:49] SPEAKER_01:

So it sort of stemmed from Jimmy's original book, which is called Culturize. And the four principles of Culturize is that as educators, we need to be champions for kids, expect excellence, carry the banner, and be a merchant of hope. And from there, it became pretty apparent that there are all kinds of situations that administrators were dealing with, whether it's student issues, staff issues, missteps, culture issues, those kinds of things. And so when we started to write this book, We're focusing on things that actually happen at the building level to help principals sort of navigate those tough situations.

[01:25] SPEAKER_00:

It seems to me that those tough situations often catch us off guard when entering a new role or when becoming a leader for the first time. We think we know what the landscape is going to challenge us with, and then those difficult situations often come out of left field, and that can really leave us reeling. What are some things that people need to consider when they're dealing with these surprising and difficult situations that may pop up?

[01:50] SPEAKER_01:

I think a couple of things that people actually, I'm not usually one for making assumptions, but I think in this line of work and in this arena, we do need to make some assumptions. And one is that you can assume that every student or staff member for that matter, that you come into contact with has at some point in their life had some level of trauma, pain, or personal challenge. So that's the first assumption. And I think when we come into a situation, knowing that our spirit is a little bit different when we're interacting with those individuals and The second thing is to keep in mind that outward expressions don't always align with internal feelings. So people can behave in a way that comes out as anger when really in reality, internally, they're scared or afraid or worried, whatever those things. So one of the things as school leaders, you know, being able to help others recognize their thought patterns and also to disrupt them prevents negative feelings from running away into negative behaviors, you know,

[02:46]

our thoughts influence our feelings and our feelings influence our behaviors. The third thing I would say is that we don't always get it right as adults. You know, I think we need to be mindful of that is that sometimes we don't get it right as adults. And then how do we go back and fix that when we don't? And then the last thing is just really assume the best about the intentions of others. And I started this by saying, you know, I'm not a fan of making assumptions and I'm not, but I also think when we're interacting with people, we need to be mindful that there are some things that at a baseline level, is sort of kind of a common of a human spirit.

[03:19]

And if we have that approach to it, I think when we navigate difficult situations, it just becomes easier.

[03:24] SPEAKER_00:

Well, as educational leaders, we're often kind of the designated go-to person whenever anything is not working correctly or whenever anybody has any kind of problem. And as you mentioned, people often bring some baggage with them to those situations. If they've experienced some trauma, sometimes their reaction is not just about the situation itself. It's also...

[03:45]

about some history maybe with the people involved. What are some of the types of situations that you had in mind when you wrote Handle With Care? What have you seen come up over and over again? What are some of those perennial challenges for school leaders that you had in mind?

[04:00] SPEAKER_01:

A couple of things I would say is managing disruptive behavior is really a big challenge, not just in the classroom level, but also in activities. It can be for student activities, student groups. It can also be at the building level when people are doing things. And so I think you have to figure out, you know, what sort of the function behind the behavior when students are acting out or behaving in a way that is disruptive. Are they trying to gain attention? Are they, you know, seeking to attempt, you know, some power and control issues?

[04:31]

Is there some revenge? You know, they feel like they've been mistreated and so they're exacting some revenge on that. Or are they acting out in a way to make sure that people don't necessarily recognize what they're potentially academic inadequacies are. You know, sometimes people would rather, kids sometimes would rather be perceived as being defiant than anybody ever think that they're not smart enough to handle what the academic challenges are. And so anytime we're dealing with discipline issues, I just think it's really important that we look at that as an opportunity for teaching and learning. And it's our opportunity as adults to be able to provide guidance and influence, influence students in their thinking, in their problem solving, in the way they self-manage, their self-awareness.

[05:13]

And so I think when we approach discipline from that mindset, we're going to be more effective in helping students to better regulate themselves so that it's not always adult-centered coming to the students.

[05:24] SPEAKER_00:

One of the challenges that always seemed kind of hardest to address to me is when a student issue interacts with an adult issue, when maybe there is a student behavior problem, but it's also kind of related to maybe some instructional issues, maybe some struggles that are not 100% the kid's fault. And we kind of have to handle each party separately. We have expectations and expectations you know, procedures for dealing with student behavior, but often it is complicated, right? There are some issues that we might want to address on multiple levels. How does that come into play when, you know, when a student issue is also an adult issue?

[06:08] SPEAKER_01:

So I'll give you an example we talk about in the book, and that is an example. I received a referral one time that said, student F-bombed me, please drop from class. And that was from the teacher. And I thought, wow, you know, so One of the things I really try to do is when I have students, I'm dealing with them on behavior issues. I try not to look at the referral in advance because I don't want to prejudge the situation. So sometimes actually the last school I worked in, the system allowed it to come up with the student's name and referral, but it didn't give the details of it.

[06:36]

You had to click into it a little further to get that. And so I always try to hold off on that. And so when I got the student in my office said, hey, you know, I understand you had an issue with so-and-so. Can you tell me what happened? And the student immediately got pretty defensive and said, never mind, I don't care. Just give me the consequence.

[06:53]

I'll just deal with that. And I said, well, no, I just want to understand from your perspective what happened. And that was sort of a little bit of a game changer when I started figuring out if I could say to students, can you share for me from your perspective what happened? It doesn't say that I automatically assume that the adults always get it right. I'm an adult myself, and I know the situations I haven't handled right sometimes. And so I want the students to know that, you know, we need to see the full picture as to what happened.

[07:17]

So long story short, you know, the student proceeds to say, I walked in late. The teacher said, you know, not terribly surprised you're late to class again. He said, and then a few minutes later, he said, that made me mad. He said it right in front of the whole class. And then a few minutes later, he went to collect the assignment. He said, I didn't have my assignment done.

[07:33]

But then he stood over my desk while he's collecting and says, I don't suppose you have this assignment for me, do you? And he said, and I started getting more and more mad. And then later in the class, they did some group work. And the teacher said, you know, any chance you brought something to write with? And the kid just blew up, you know, and did F-bomb and walked out of the class, you know. And so in that situation, you know, what my struggle was a little bit was figuring out, well, whose behavior needs to be checked here?

[07:57]

Like, imagine if the teacher had said, hey, I'm just I'm happy to see you. You know, I'm glad you came to class to get it today. Or obviously the student had the homework done. He would have been waving it and showing it, you know, ready to get collected. Instead, teacher could just walk by and said, is there a chance you can get that for me tomorrow? and then what if the teacher just set a pencil on the desk, you know, and try to troubleshoot to prevent some of these situations from happening, and so the thing is, I think you've got to make sure that as adults that we are managing ourselves appropriately, checking ourselves a little bit.

[08:29]

I think it's, we're all human. We all get frustrated. We get mad, but sometimes when it comes to young people, especially if they're angry and mad and yelling and swearing and all those things, try not to focus on what the words that are being said, you know, focus on the emotion behind it. And I think when we can focus on the emotion, we get a better sense of what's going on. So that's one thing. And then focusing on the relationship that's been damaged and not just the rule that's been broken.

[08:57]

I think that's a really important piece of it, whether we're dealing with students or adults for that matter. And I think it's really important that we acknowledge adults have missteps too. And we say or do things that we wish we hadn't. And that's part of the reason we wrote the book is you know, coming across their own situations of staff members, maybe not interacting with a parent that was really in a helpful way, you know, to call a parent. And I, one thing I've kind of noticed is just the dread that some teachers have about calling parents. I mean, it's like, and I think part of that is the landscape has changed, you know, it wasn't that too distant of a past where when the school called, you know, the student was quizzed and questioned by the parent and put on the defensive and, you know, in a lot of cases now, you know, the parent kind of goes on the offense against the teacher.

[09:40]

Well, what did you say to her? You know, she thinks you don't like her. You know, she's not learning from you, those kinds of things. And so I think it's, people have become a little gun shy about calling parents, but I think when we do make those phone calls, how important it is just to connect with them and seek clarification, you know, if, you know, Hey, I've got joy in my English class and, you know, she's really, interacts well with other students, but I've noticed in the last couple of weeks, she hasn't really been actively engaged in much participation and she hasn't turned in some assignments. Is there something going on that I need to better understand or I need to know so that I can help her? That goes a lot further than when somebody calls and says, Joy hasn't turned in any assignments and she falls asleep in my class every day.

[10:22]

I don't know what to do with her anymore. You know, I mean, it just, so how we frame things when we talk to students and how we talk, how we frame things as administrators, when we talk to teachers is very important. So we just have to make sure that when we're ever wanting to interact with other people, and particularly when we have a difficult message to deliver, make sure that we're providing a generous assessment. You know, first, there's always something good about a staff member, a student, a parent, anybody, And when we lead with that, it's an opportunity then to take the conversation more deeply and more successfully to better help the student. Another thing I was going to add is that just how important it is, especially when it comes to behaviors, again, whether it's adults or students, just how important it is for administrators to respond immediately and not, you know, be careful not to overreact and be careful not to underreact.

[11:13]

But to not do anything is the worst thing you can do. But when you respond, make sure that we're clear, make sure that we're direct, make sure that we are addressing whatever the concerning behavior is as privately as possible. I always talk about time, place and manner. You know, when we have conversations, we need to ask ourselves, is this the appropriate time to have this conversation? Is this the appropriate place to have this conversation? And am I prepared to conduct myself in an appropriate manner that's going to yield some positive results?

[11:40]

So that's another thing that's really important. And then, you know, especially when people get super disrespectful, you know, I've been on the receiving end of more than one outburst, let's put it that way. But the thing that I always try to work with my administrators, the more disrespectful a student is, the greater respect we need to show. The louder they are, the quieter we need to get. I mean, because when they're acting out in that way, they've lost that self-regulation and we just need to help them get a reset. And when we start yelling back or arguing, that's always another thing.

[12:13]

I always tell people students do not have to be right and have the last word. Turns out neither do the adults.

[12:19] SPEAKER_00:

And some of those skills of working with someone who is kind of dysregulated, kind of out of control, getting inappropriate, getting loud, you know, being rude, you know, some of those skills don't come naturally. Like we have to purposefully develop them, you know, maybe with our, you know, newer staff members may have to explicitly say, you know, your job is not to win shouting contests with students when they're out of control. Your job is to be the adult who, you know, who stays in control and stays calm. When it comes to that set of skills, what are some things that you have found that it's helpful to just to be explicit about and to teach directly? Because, you know, we all have kind of different backgrounds, different life experience when it comes to handling, you know, other people who are, you know, just based on the way we were raised or the way we were taught. You know, what are some things that you teach your faculty that you teach in the book for handling those tough situations where we might tend to get amped up and escalated?

[13:16] SPEAKER_01:

Well, it's really, really important to take a step back a little bit. I think right now our teachers have never worked harder. And at the same time, the level of accountability continues to rise and their level of resources provided is declining. And it puts our teachers in just a terrible situation. The fact that people continue to work at it is because they care about the kids. They care about education.

[13:42]

They care about our future. Um, and that is obviously to be commended, but we have to do a better job as administrators, making sure that we send the green light. Like you gotta take care of yourself here. You know, I tell my staff that I want them to look as forward to coming to work on Monday as they do going home on Friday. But I need them looking more forward to going home on Friday than coming to work on Monday. If things are out of order at home or people are stressed or not given the time and the attention to the relationships outside of school, their ability to give the time and attention to the relationships inside of school is really going to be really minimized.

[14:18]

And so one of the things is making sure that people unplug, that they step back, that they really try to set some boundaries so that they can be more ignited when they come back into the classroom. I think that's really important. making sure that we really work on not taking things too personally. I think that's a real challenge just as a human being. I think it's really challenging, particularly when you're criticized, you're critiqued. But how do we come into situations and say, hey, I'm going to remove myself as my wounds, my feelings, and how I'm being treated in this moment to try to better understand the situation.

[14:56]

So I think we need to be careful about not being, if we offend easily, it's going to be a tough career. It's going to be a really tough career. But I would say that as an educator, I think if you offend easily, it's going to be hard to be a good partner. It's going to be hard to be a good parent. So really working on personally not becoming offended very easily is really important. And then really seeking clarification, especially when the behaviors are such that it's clearly off the rails here a little bit.

[15:27]

I always find that when I can say to a student or to a staff member, what do you need me to better understand in order to be able to help you here? Um, it helps them to kind of stop and think about what do I need in this moment? That's one thing, but it also helps them to kind of recognize what they're struggling with. And so just asking that question, what do you need me to better understand is really helpful.

[15:46] SPEAKER_00:

I want to go back to something you said toward the beginning of that section there about how you want staff to look forward to going home. I think listeners who are paying close attention there might have expected you to say it the other way around. But you said you actually want people to look forward to going home more than coming to school on Monday.

[16:02] SPEAKER_01:

Well, you know, years ago and I was it's my first administrative job. And I remember just I was in the grocery store and I remember a student. It was like five o'clock. I was getting some groceries. Student looked at me like, you know, you're in a store like, yeah, I eat, too, you know. And I think that's one of the things that those teachers who are most successful in the classroom and those administrators who are most successful, let people get to know them to a certain degree.

[16:27]

You don't want to overshare, but finding out who you are as a person, what interests you have, who's your family, those kinds of things, I think really help people to start see you in a different light. And I think that, you know, employer, employee, teacher, student, you know, it's kind of like that whole feedback thing. You know, the traditional feedback model is top down, right? Parent to child, employer to employee, that kind of thing, principal to teacher. And really, if we're doing our job, first of all, we have to make sure that we're willing to get some feedback. And so that's one of the things I tell my staff all the time, look, I can't get any better as a school leader if I'm not willing to hear a little bad news.

[17:06]

And a little bad news could be, hey, Joy, have you thought about, have you considered, you know, but we have to create the conditions where it's not top down. So a teacher can come to the administrator, a student can say to the teacher, hey, can we talk about that deadline? Because we have a you know, a volleyball game Thursday night. If we could have it due on Monday, that'd be better. You know, those kinds of things. If we can create the conditions where people can give some feedback, that just builds trust.

[17:31]

And anytime you build trust, people lean in more. And when people lean in more, they understand better and they can learn more. And so one of our jobs as school leaders is to make sure that our staff understands that there's not a different set of rules for the kids than there is for the adults. The set of rules for the students are you need to take care of yourself. You've got to work on, you know, self-management. You've got to make sure that you have that self-care.

[17:53]

We can't send a different message and say we want the staff to work overtime all the time. But really bring your best every day. So we as leaders have to make sure that we are being consistent in our messaging to staff to say it's okay to walk away. You know, you've got to regroup. You need to walk away and have some disconnect time from school in order to, you know, you basically have to slow down to hurry up. I guess I would say it that way.

[18:15]

And we tend not to slow down very well. And I would throw myself in that category as well. It's one of the areas that I'm continuously and always challenged to try to get better at.

[18:27] SPEAKER_00:

One other thing I wanted to ask about that you spoke to briefly there is the issue of students who swear at staff members. And if you are a high school administrator, if you're a high school teacher, this is an issue that is going to come up, right? Maybe not so much with younger kids, but especially at the high school level, you're going to encounter kids who are having a bad day for whatever reason, may have nothing to do with you, may have nothing to do with anything that happened at school. But we are going to hear some bad words from students. Sometimes those will be directed at us. And I think, you know, depending on our personal experience, this can be very difficult to know how to respond to.

[19:03]

You know, if a student cusses you out, as you said earlier, it may have been the teacher's expectation that that student would just never get to come back to class. Their schedule would have to be changed because this was some sort of uncrossable line that was crossed and now there's no going back. How do we maintain respect? How do we respect teachers' sense of professional dignity and yet help them come back from things like that and rebuild the relationship with the student? It's not really the case that we need to ignore things like that and say, oh, don't worry about it. It's not a big deal.

[19:32]

Because it is a big deal. If a student cusses out a teacher in front of the class, that is a big deal. But at the same time, it doesn't need to be a life sentence. We don't need to expel the student because these things are going to happen. How do we manage that tension between needing to uphold respect and reinforce teachers' authority and rebuild relationships with that understanding that this is just a thing that is going to happen with young people?

[19:57] SPEAKER_01:

A couple of things I would say is I would say maybe 10, 15 years ago, I would have agreed with, you know, it's probably something more likely at the secondary and not very likely to happen at the elementary. But I think our elementary folks would tell us differently right now. I think they're experiencing that. Yep. They know the words, they hear them, they receive them. And it is happening at younger and younger ages.

[20:18]

And so that's one of the most important things we can do is take the time to teach the behaviors that we expect. So let's talk about respect. Early in this last school year, I had a parent who was concerned about something that had happened on the recess and the classroom teacher actually handled it just beautifully. But when I went to talk to the classroom teacher to kind of get some clarification about how and why she handled it the way she did, I found myself asking, so when do we teach the students what respect looks like at recess? What does respect look like in an all school assembly or when a speaker or whatever? And it really kind of goes back to the whole idea is, does everybody know the standard?

[20:54]

And are we taking the time to teach the standard to everybody? So that's the first thing. And when all the staff are using the same language, that helps tremendously. Where schools get caught a little bit is when there's sort of like, they take the rule, say a school has a rule, no hats in the building, okay? Use that as a rule. Well, if some teachers allow the hat in the classroom and other teachers don't, we now have good cop and bad cop, which really pits us against each other, which is a terrible situation.

[21:21]

And not just for the adults, but especially for the students. Because now it's like, well, gosh, I can just figure out who I can manipulate and who I can get away with in things in the classroom. And that's not a good situation. So making sure that we're very clear about what our expectations are. When we talk about respect, what does that sound like, look like, feel like? And again, when we go back and teach the language and say, you know, look, the way you're managing yourself right now is not showing the level of respect that we expect and go through those.

[21:50]

I think where people really get hung up a little bit is when students do things like this, there's this automatic need to say, well, you need to apologize. I never force a kid to apologize. And I'll tell you why. First of all, you know, I had a situation with a student one time who got tossed out of a classroom. The kid was in the wrong. Kid didn't behave appropriately.

[22:13]

Totally talked disrespectfully to a teacher. And what we need to understand is teachers should not have to tolerate that. We as administrators need to make sure that they know it's unacceptable. At the same time, we also need to teach the kids about why it's inappropriate. And so when they come, then they say whatever. And I'll say, well, how do you want to fix this situation then with that teacher?

[22:34]

And the student responded to me right away. Well, I'm not saying I'm sorry. It was like definitive. I'm not saying I'm sorry. I said, well, okay. I said, well, you've already acknowledged to me that there are different points in the situation where you could have gone a different direction.

[22:46]

So I said, how would you feel about going back to the teacher and say, look, I got upset with you because I felt like you were being disrespectful towards me. And I don't know if that was your intent, but that's how it felt. regardless, I shouldn't have spoke to you that way. It will never happen again. I would like to get a fresh start in your classroom. And I looked right at him and I said, what did I not say?

[23:04]

He said, you didn't say I'm sorry. And I said, that's correct. I didn't. And I said, that'll help you through this situation. But I said, if you ever plan on being a son-in-law or a spouse, you better figure it out and learn how to say I'm sorry. So making sure that we are helping them to recognize where they have not manned themselves well, but don't force the apology.

[23:23]

First of all, they don't know how to do it. I go through an exercise when I speak with administrators and teachers, and I have them write down the first name that comes to their mind. So the first question is, who's demonstrated unconditional love? Second question is, who's a model of integrity to you? Third question, who has demonstrated courage and commitment? And so they go through, and the last question is, who has modeled forgiveness to you?

[23:47]

And the very interesting thing is when I asked those first four or five questions, everybody sails right through them. About that question around forgiveness, people start to kind of look around and they're not quite sure and kind of look around. Is anybody else writing anything down? It's because we have not taken the time to teach people how to apologize. So let's not do it with kids because the adults don't know how to do it. The kids certainly don't know how to do it.

[24:09]

And it also, when you force the apology, it takes away the accountability factor for the students to be able to hold themselves accountable for their words and their actions. And then finally, the apology will be delivered the same way it came about. forced and that is not going to help the adult. And I think if you can help students and understand that, you know, in that, you know, immediate instant gratification of F-bombing and walking out of the classroom might last about 20 seconds, but that behavior in and of itself does nothing to advance their own life, to make them feel better or to resolve issues. And so we need to focus on that with them.

[24:43] SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, beautifully said. And I love the emphasis on teaching the behaviors we want to see. Every time I see a discussion of PBIS, positive behavior interventions and supports, and the whole focus is on rewards and points and prizes and things like that, I think, where is the emphasis? PBIS is really all about teaching those expectations that we want to see, just as we would teach any other aspect of our curriculum. so i think that's so important to uh you know to address not just for students but for staff as well and for i think that's so true about you know having apologizing or making it right modeled for you and you know making amends so the idea that we can take all of that for granted and just assume that everybody knows how to you know to mend fences when relationships have been damaged you know, is not a good one that we actually need to teach these things. So the book is Handle with Care, Managing Difficult Situations in Schools with Dignity and Respect.

[25:39]

Joy, if people want to find you online, where's the best place for them to go?

[25:44] SPEAKER_01:

You can go to joykelly05 on Twitter, and that's the best place to find me.

[25:49] SPEAKER_00:

Wonderful. Well, Joy, thank you so much for joining me on Principal Center Radio. It's been a pleasure.

[25:53] SPEAKER_01:

Great. Thanks so much, Justin.

[25:54] Announcer:

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