[00:01] SPEAKER_02:
Welcome to Principal Center Radio, bringing you the best in professional practice.
[00:06] Announcer:
Here's your host, Director of the Principal Center and Champion of High Performance Instructional Leadership, Justin Bader. Welcome everyone to Principal Center Radio.
[00:15] SPEAKER_00:
I'm your host, Justin Bader, and I'm honored to be joined today by Ken Spiro. Ken is CEO of Ed Leadership Sims, which was established in partnership with the Graduate School of Education of the University of Pennsylvania. With more than 30 years of experience designing simulations across a variety of industries, Ken currently works with school districts, universities, and other organizations to strengthen their leadership pipelines and reduce leadership churn.
[00:41] Announcer:
And now, our feature presentation.
[00:43] SPEAKER_00:
Ken, welcome to Principal Center Radio.
[00:44] SPEAKER_01:
Thank you very much. Nice to be here.
[00:46] SPEAKER_00:
Well, thanks for joining me to talk about simulations. I'm very excited about this topic because I personally have experienced, I think, one simulation in my career as a school administrator. And I think there's tremendous power there, but a lot of untapped potential. What do you see as kind of the core value or promise of simulations when it comes to developing educational leaders?
[01:07] SPEAKER_01:
You know, as I've come to get to know the job of administration in K-12, I joke sometimes when I teach that it's probably having worked with leaders from multiple industries across the globe, that the job of the principal is probably the most pathetic leadership job I've ever come across. And I mean that with great respect. Because nowhere have I seen a job where you have a group of stakeholders whose demands are so exclusive of each other and that each one is more irrational than the next. So really, no matter what you do in terms of your decision making, in terms of your activities, you're still going to get kicked in the gut. And it's just a matter of whether or not you have the wherewithal to get up when you get knocked down multiple times a day. So two of the key challenges I think that are resident for either both sitting or aspiring leaders is the need to be able to, on the one hand, make good decisions, right, exercise judgment, even when it's incredibly challenging, but at the same time to have resilience, to be able to deal with the negative blowback that comes even with good decisions.
[02:08]
And those are two sets of skills that you really cannot teach. They're really only improved or developed through experience. And so the value of simulation as in essence, the approximating experience, but in a safe place because you can make the mistakes, you can fail forward, you can give it a shot and go with your gut, even though you're not certain where it's going to take you. And the pain is just what you see on the screen. It's not going to be real pain associated with those decisions. And so you can actually fail forward.
[02:40]
And so the opportunity to more constructively, more quickly develop better decision making skills or just be more comfortable making even the tough decisions that the school principal needs to make, but also to be able to deal with that negative blowback that's bound to come no matter what you do. That's where I find the power of this modality.
[03:00] SPEAKER_00:
It's kind of like that old saying that good judgment comes from experience and experience comes from bad judgment. But at the same time, we know when the stakes are high, when we're dealing with human beings, with kids and with teachers, we want to, as much as possible, not learn from our own mistakes and from our own bad judgment. So what are some of the dimensions of a simulation? Like what happens within a simulation that allows it to create that learning experience for a leader?
[03:26] SPEAKER_01:
So when I look at simulation, first of all, definitionally, these are computer-based, so they're very scalable. They can go anywhere where there's a browser. But the important elements that I find are, first, that it's a realistic context. So it's something that maybe it's not my world or it's not my building, but it could be. So there's a level of authenticity. There's a level of capturing something that seems very realistic.
[03:47]
That's the first thing. The second thing is I want to provide an opportunity where you're going to actually have to make decisions. You're going to face a realistic scenario, but then you're going to have to make decisions. Based on those decisions, you're going to have to deal with the consequences. It's opportunities for judgment, opportunity to experience consequences, and then ultimately to have an opportunity for reflection and get feedback. Why did that happen?
[04:11]
It's not to say this is what's going to happen when you face this in real life because these are contextual issues. And especially when you're dealing with people, it's rarely going to happen exactly the same way from time to time. Even the same person won't react the same way. But the opportunity to practice the judgment, the opportunity to experience that blowback, both immediately and over time, Those are the things that really make for a sticky experience that can then be leveraged when you're facing similar kinds of situations in the future.
[04:42] SPEAKER_00:
And what do you see as some of the insights that people take away from that experience? You know, maybe especially thinking about a new leader who knows teaching and learning, who knows kind of what they're getting into as far as having more responsibility to deal with students and to deal with teachers in a different way, but also to exercise leadership. What happens developmentally? For the individual as a result of that like how have you seen people's judgment change?
[05:05] SPEAKER_01:
Well, one thing is it just gives them an appreciation for the difference in the job, right? So we tend to look at moving up the ladder so to speak as a progression as if it's natural and There's really nothing natural about it just because we define this as the way that jobs evolved it's not the same set of skills right if you were an excellent teacher and that doesn't necessarily point to you being an excellent administrator. And yet you may expect that it would, right? Because you're on that quote-unquote progression. So it's an opportunity to actually get some insight into the difference between how I would have dealt with this in my past job that I just got promoted from, and now how I need to deal with it in this job. Because there's going to be a difference.
[05:49]
The perspective is different. The responsibility is different. And again, that's where we could learn from the school of hard knocks, But this is a safer way to get some experience under your belt with doing that. And we've had insights like that be reported to us from anywhere from teacher leaders who actually, as they were on that seeming progression, realized, wow, I had no idea that the job of the principal was so complicated. I actually don't want to be one anymore to getting that. Oh, OK.
[06:18]
So now I have to look at this a little bit differently. And not only am I viewing the issue differently, but because of often they're delivered in collaborative settings, we're actually modeling collaboration. And so the insight that they get is the value of not getting locked into feeling isolated. Not getting into being that island at the top of the building, it's actually something that's much better done when you can at least talk to somebody, let alone involve them in the decision-making process where relevant. So the opportunity to be more thoughtful and to be more thoughtful with others has been some of the biggest takeaways that we've had reported back to us.
[06:56] SPEAKER_00:
That's fabulous. I'm thinking about that shift from being in control of your own classroom and being responsible for your own competence and the results that you get with your students into being responsible for the work of other adults. I mean, that is a huge shift that educators go through when they make the shift from being a classroom teacher or in a similar role to being an administrator. And I'm thinking especially about dealing with adult behavior, which I think is probably our least favorite type of issue to deal with. Kids we can handle, but there's something that's especially, I think, challenging about dealing with adult behaviors. What are some of the simulations or the experiences that you take people through to help administrators deal with, say, inappropriate behavior from faculty?
[07:39] SPEAKER_01:
So, I mean, one of the simulations we have is actually dealing with a teacher bully. So that's where one of your go-to teachers is being bullied by another teacher. So that's an obvious one in terms of directly, specifically adult interactions. But the other aspect is in terms of the different kinds of adults that principals will have to interact with, right? You've got these different stakeholders and none of their expectations are aligned. Right.
[08:06]
You've got on the one hand, you've got your teachers, your staff and through them, the students, although the students could also be a direct stakeholder. But then even at the adult level, your parent group are not necessarily going to be in alignment. They're not aligned with each other, let alone with the teachers. If you're in a public school and you've got a district issues to deal with, but even if it's not, you're going to have some kind of boss who you're contending with. And other staff members, other interested parties in what's going on with community groups, etc. Again, each one having very valid interests, but not aligned with everybody else.
[08:44]
And so the challenge of needing to, on the one hand, have a sense of what you want or what you need to do in the building, right? At the end of the day, it is going to be about student achievement. But the pathway to get there is not going to be very clear. And the ability to navigate both from a visioning perspective, be able to see where you need to get to, but then how do you navigate these various groups? How do you communicate? How do you influence?
[09:10]
How do you manage? You know, when you don't necessarily have power, you certainly don't have power over many of those groups, but how do you manage? And so being able to practice with that, being able to flex with it so that you get some sense of, you know, what do I need to do from a situational awareness perspective just to A, know where the blows might come from, And then at the same time, strategically determine how best to what information to share, what information to gather, what needs to be communicated, what needs to be told, what needs to be requested. All those kinds of things, which, again, shifts with the sands, being able to get practice with doing those things.
[09:46] SPEAKER_00:
Well, you had mentioned earlier that sometimes when people go through these simulations and kind of get a more nuanced feel for what the work of leadership looks like, some people say, oh, if that's what this is, I'm out. I'm not interested in this. I will go back to what I was doing before because I love that. And I feel like if that's...
[10:05]
a realization that was going to occur at some point anyway. It's better, of course, for that to happen earlier on in the process and not after someone is in the job and has been hired and would be very disruptive to make a change back to what they were doing before. What are some other... kind of organization level outcomes that can result from people going through these?
[10:24]
Because obviously there's a huge benefit to the individual to gain that experience and to figure out if they're on the right career path. For the organization in terms of hiring and promoting and things like that, what do you see happening as a result of people going through simulations?
[10:38] SPEAKER_01:
Well, one of the key things that I find so compelling about this approach is at its core, what makes the simulation so powerful is the underlying reliance on the story. Right. So from a narrative perspective, from a storytelling perspective, there is no vehicle anywhere that is more compelling than stories. Right. Human beings, we process things through stories. There is no more engaging vehicle than that.
[11:06]
And that's been borne out to learning science research. Now, neuroscience research is pointing out exactly the same thing. So, you know, when it comes to learning of any kind, engagement is the key issue. Because if you don't have an engaged student, you've got nothing. But when you've got engagement, then almost anything is possible. And that applies both for students as well as adults, as any student.
[11:29]
So when we're able to harness that power from the engagement perspective, and when we're dealing with adults, it's clear that the job of development is never finished. We're always coming across new things. One of the new simulations we're developing is navigating the transgender student scenario. right this is not something that was on anybody's radar you know a few years ago as a national issue but now it certainly is and it's it's a challenging issue so from the standpoint of needing to be involved in development so as a general outcome if i can help to create an environment in which there is a focus on being motivated learners so that as a sitting or aspiring principal I am involved in my own development. I am interested in participating in my own development. That is something that is both good for the individual, but manifests on the team and manifests throughout the building.
[12:26]
So I can actually have an effect on the school climate, which obviously is good for the adults, but it even makes for a better environment for the students as well. And so the feedback that we've gotten is that people after they've gone through a session in which a simulation was part of it, they're looking forward to the next one. They're looking forward to continuously participating in these kinds of activities because it brings the content to life because it's part of a blended solution. It also brings that collaborative aspect. It brings that interactive component to the decision-making, but also interacting with their peers. It just helps to create to help form a more positive developmental climate.
[13:10]
And from that standpoint, if that's something that we can encourage building by building, district by district, That's something that can only have ongoing benefits for the students. So even though the simulation itself may not have a direct effect on student achievement on a one-to-one basis, but it can actually have a multiplier effect because you're not only affecting a leader or an aspiring leader or an assistant leader that would have effects one-on-one in interactions they have with their teams, but actually has the multiplier of the building. And so being able to affect climate in this way by creating motivated learners through the engagement process is one that I find very, very compelling.
[13:52] SPEAKER_00:
Well, Ken, it makes total sense to me that if people wanted to understand more about how these simulations work, that they should kind of experience that for themselves. So what are some ways that people can experience these simulations on your website if they're interested?
[14:05] SPEAKER_01:
Well, so they can go play one and obviously get insight into the approach and the thinking. I mean, there's some interviews in terms of, you know, one of the key things that goes into a sim is the experience from which they're derived, right? All the simulations were actually done in collaboration with practitioners. So all the stories that I mentioned, the authenticity of the context, these were based on stories or inspired by stories that actually took place in a building. So again, it's not your building, but it could be. And I have an interview there with the person we worked with on the navigating a student suicide, which, again, is one of those scenarios which you're never going to get good at.
[14:43]
The only way to get better at it is through experience. And God forbid anybody should have a whole lot of experience in dealing with that. But just getting insight into one person's experience with it and how we were able to capture that into a simulated environment.
[14:58] SPEAKER_00:
So if people want to access those, where's the best place for them to find both the kind of video walkthrough and the sample sim that they can go through? Where's the best place online to find that?
[15:06] SPEAKER_01:
Well, my website is at edleadershipsims.com. That's plural, edleadershipsims.com. And they can tool around and see what they can find. The simulations have all been aligned with the new principal PCEL standards that were evolved because one of the things that's important to recognize when it comes to experience is that even though we've got the standards laid out, there's 10 of them, they're all very nicely articulated.
[15:32]
But in life, we never have the opportunity to focus on one thing at a time. Nothing happens in a bubble. There's always going to be a trade-off that needs to be taken into account. If nothing else, you have a cost. I want to invest into something that's equity-driven, but it comes at a cost. And there's a dollar figure that if you have the money, you don't have the money.
[15:53]
But obviously, that's a very simplistic trade-off, and there are more complicated ones when you get into social-emotional learning, when you get into those kinds of things. And the opportunity to demonstrate those trade-offs is really what's at play here. which is a little bit different than the way traditionally we think about development, the way we think about learning new things, because that's typically more instructionally oriented, but experience doesn't happen in that kind of linear, discrete fashion. So that would be one other element to keep in mind as you think about or as you explore these ideas, the difference between how we learn from instruction and how we learn from experience.
[16:30] SPEAKER_00:
Well, Ken, thanks so much for joining me on Principal Center Radio.
[16:33] SPEAKER_01:
Thank you very much.
[16:35] SPEAKER_00:
And now, Justin Bader on high-performance instructional leadership. So high-performance instructional leaders, what were your takeaways from my conversation with Ken about simulations and the idea of having this mindset of continuous learning and learning from experience? experience, not only our own experience, but simulated experience and the reactions of other people to those same scenarios. One thing I really appreciated that Ken said was the idea of culture, the idea of developing the expectation that none of us have really arrived. And we need to have a culture of continuous learning. And I think when we model that as leaders, that in a lot of the situations that we face as educational administrators, there are no easy answers.
[17:22]
Or if there's an obvious answer, Chances are there's going to be a complication with implementing that because as Ken said, we have so many stakeholders whose interests are not aligned and we are in the middle, kind of the switchboard trying to connect and align all of those disparate interests. And maybe we can't keep everyone happy, but we at least need to make sure that the work can get done and that our stakeholders who have a seat at the table are able to work together. So I want to encourage you to check out edleadershipsims.com and go through some of the examples that Ken has there on the website. You can see someone else going through a simulation simply by watching a video, or you can actually go through a simulation yourself and experience that. And again, that's at edleadershipsims.com.
[18:13] Announcer:
Thanks for listening to Principal Center Radio. For more great episodes, subscribe on our website at principalcenter.com slash radio.
