[00:01] SPEAKER_01:
Welcome to Principal Center Radio, bringing you the best in professional practice.
[00:06] Announcer:
Here's your host, director of the Principal Center and champion of high-performance instructional leadership, Justin Bader. Welcome, everyone, to Principal Center Radio.
[00:15] SPEAKER_02:
I'm your host, Justin Bader, and I'm honored to be joined today by my guest, Paul Tuff. Mr. Tuff is a journalist and author whose work appears regularly in the New York Times Magazine and NPR's This American Life. And he's the author of three books, including Whatever It Takes, Geoffrey Canada's Quest to Change Harlem and America on the Harlem Children's Zone, How Children Succeed, Grit, Curiosity, and the Hidden Power of Character, and his new book, which we're here to talk about today, Helping Children Succeed, What Works and Why.
[00:46] Announcer:
And now, our feature presentation.
[00:49] SPEAKER_02:
Paul, welcome to Principal Center Radio.
[00:50] SPEAKER_00:
Thank you. Great to be here.
[00:51] SPEAKER_02:
Well, Paul, you've been one of the leading voices calling for schools to pay attention to those kind of non-cognitive characteristics of students. And I would imagine that most educators who have heard of the idea of grit or the emphasis on perseverance, self-control that's come up in some of your previous work, I I would imagine that most of us have heard of that because of your writing, because of your appearances on This American Life. And I wonder what your thoughts are on how we have responded as a profession to the research on those non-cognitive traits that students bring to school.
[01:26] SPEAKER_00:
One of the strange things about my last book, How Children Succeed, and the research that I wrote about was that there was this big disconnect in the research between how clear the evidence was that these non-cognitive skills mattered, made a huge difference in children's success and student success in the classroom. So how sort of solid that research was with the kind of absence of clear research describing how to help students develop these skills, like what do we actually do? So I had the experience after that. book came out of speaking especially to teachers and especially to teachers who are working with kids who are growing up in poverty and having them say, okay, I like the ideas. This research resonates with me on a certain level, but now that we know that, what do we actually do? And so this book, Helping Children Succeed, is an attempt to try to answer that question, to give real strategies and solutions to educators, to parents, and to anyone who's working directly with kids, especially kids who are growing up in adversity.
[02:23]
And so what I think happened in the absence of that clear message on what to do in the classroom was that teachers did one of two things. And one is, I think there's an instinct when you hear that these skills are really important, but you say, you know, you hear that we don't know what to do to develop them, that you think that they're inherent. You think that they're not actually malleable skills. You think that some kids are just gritty and some kids are not. And that, I think, is the opposite of what the research suggests. But I think that's a risk in this research.
[02:49]
And then the other thing is that I think a lot of educators did what educators naturally do, which is to use the paradigm, the skills that they have, which is what teachers do is they develop skills in children, right? They take kids who don't have enough skills in certain things and they develop those skills. So, you know, if a child doesn't have enough math skills, you teach them math. And so naturally, I think when met with the research that said, you know, children don't have enough self-control skill or grit skill or perseverance skill, the response was, let's teach them these things. And so one of the things that I try to write about in helping children succeed is the fact that I think that that paradigm actually doesn't isn't the right one doesn't make a lot of sense and there's not a lot of evidence that there is a curriculum or a pedagogy or a textbook that's going to help kids develop these skills and that instead the right approach both in the classroom and in the home is to think about the environment that children find themselves in that there are lots of things that we adults can do to shape the environment that children are growing up in again inside and outside of schools that are going to help them develop these non-cognitive capacities and display them in the school
[03:53] SPEAKER_02:
So in thinking about characteristics like grit and self-control and perseverance, I know early on there was a lot of discussion about those traits as if they were skills, as if they were teachable. Based on your research and your reporting, at this point, are you seeing things like grit as skills that are teachable, or do you think we need to think of them as something else entirely?
[04:16] SPEAKER_00:
That's a great question. And it is a lot of what went into this new book is trying to try to figure that out. And so, yeah, I think, you know, there's been a lot of debate over the term non-cognitive skills. And most of it is a debate about the first word, you know, like it's non-cognitive, right? It turns out there is actually a lot of cognition in some of these qualities. But I think we should have been thinking about the second word in that phrase, the word skills, because I think that looking at these as skills is mostly not a helpful way to think about them.
[04:42]
Because when we think about skills, we think about something that you can just learn and then you don't forget, you know, whether it's reading or math or riding a bike, once you learn it, you kind of know it. Whereas things like perseverance or curiosity or optimism or self-control, these are qualities that anyone who's spent time with children can recognize that they come and go and they depend very much on the environment that kids are in and what sorts of forces are working on them. And so there are lots of kids who can be very perseverant in math class and then in the next half hour later in history class, they can't persevere at all. And so I think thinking about these as a skill that a kid has is distracting us from the more important question of what we can do to create environments that are conducive to kids developing these capacities and displaying them in school.
[05:30] SPEAKER_02:
And we know that so much of the difference that we see in how students are able to perform in school is due to some of these characteristics. There seems to be increasing evidence that those, you know, quote unquote, non-cognitive skills do make a difference. And of course, as educators, we see potential there to eliminate inequities, to close achievement gaps, to close opportunity gaps, you know, however we want to frame that. We know we can make a difference for our students if we can help them with this particular set of issues. I appreciate the way you framed that as an issue of the environment. And one thing that you say in the books is that one of the first barriers to addressing educational disparities is conceptual, that we don't really understand the mechanisms behind childhood adversity and exactly what it is that some of our most struggling students are facing and what they're bringing with them to the classroom.
[06:23]
What are some of those mechanisms of childhood adversity and why aren't they common knowledge?
[06:29] SPEAKER_00:
That's a great question. And it's something else that I also wrestle with in this book. And I think that, I mean, you know, in some ways, I think some people might say like, okay, the mechanisms are not that important. Like we know that poor kids are struggling in school. We don't need to figure out like the precise reason why they are. There's so many, so many challenges that they have inside and outside of school that like trying to, you know, finally parse the reasons for it isn't important.
[06:52]
But I think it actually is quite important because I think It's going to be much easier and more effective for us to address these problems if we understand them better. And the research that had the biggest impact on me in terms of how I think about it in this new book has to do with the biology of stress. And at the same time that education researchers have been kind of taking two steps forward and one step back in understanding stress, motivation and non-cognitive skill. There's been this huge explosion of research in this field called neurobiology and in the understanding on the molecular level of what growing up in a highly stressful environment does to kids' development. And we now understand that it affects children physiologically in ways that persist throughout our entire lives. Growing up in really stressful homes with lots of traumatic experiences makes us more likely to develop cancer, have heart disease, get emphysema when we're older.
[07:46]
And it's all because of these kind of biological changes that happen early on. What we're now understanding better is that there are also effects on our brain development and on our psychological development. Everything from the development of executive functions, these attention and concentration skills that matter so much in kindergarten and beyond, to our sort of emotional state when kids experience a lot of stress, especially early on. It fires up their fight or flight mechanism. They're highly vigilant, which means that in the classroom, they're going to be wary and suspicious. They're going to have a harder time focusing and concentrating and following directions.
[08:22]
And it's going to be harder for them to connect and feel motivated by school. So all of that biology, I think, is really important. It helps us understand what's going on. It gives us a real impetus to try to address stressful homes. And so a lot of what I write about in Helping Children Succeed are early childhood interventions, especially interventions that work directly with parents trying to support them. At the same time, I feel like the risk in talking about that research, as I'm doing right now, is that it can again sort of put us into this fixed mindset.
[08:53]
The neurology can just seem so powerful that we think like, okay, so If it's true that kids' ability to concentrate and to deal with confrontations and provocations and criticism is being formed neurobiologically in the early years, there's nothing that we as teachers can do. And so I think it's important also to say that the research suggests that there is a whole lot that teachers can do if they are teaching kids who have this disadvantage early on of having their stress response system shaped by intense stress. There are lots of things that we can do differently in the classroom. The problem is we're mostly not doing those. And a lot of the policies and practices that we employ in school actually exacerbate the problem rather than make it
[09:37] SPEAKER_02:
So to get back to some of that research on kind of understanding early traumatic experiences, you talk about ACE scores and how adverse childhood experience scores can actually predict a lot of what you talked about as far as health outcomes and difficulties in the school setting. So knowing how in the past we have responded to different sources of data, sometimes inappropriately as a profession, do you feel like ACE scores are something that we should be looking at in schools that should we be collecting data on our students' ACE scores and using that to maybe plan a course of supports for students?
[10:14] SPEAKER_00:
It's a great question. And so the ACE score for anyone who doesn't know is this study that's a sort of very straightforward instrument. You just count up the number of categories of adversity that kids have experienced in childhood, everything from abuse and neglect to having parents who are divorced or a relative in prison or a parent with a substance abuse problem or a mental health problem. All of these things, when they accumulate, what the ACE study shows is that they make life harder for kids. and then for the adults that those kids become. So is it a good idea for schools to collect that information?
[10:48]
I don't know if I want to bureaucratize it, because I think there's all sorts of privacy concerns and other concerns. But I think in general, it is a really useful thing for anyone in a child's life to be more aware of the effect of those adverse experiences. So one of the researchers who I wrote about in both these books, actually, How Children Succeed and Helping Children Succeed, is Nadine Burke Harris, a pediatrician in San Francisco who's really on the vanguard of trying to increase awareness of ACEs. And she's mostly talking to pediatricians and encouraging pediatricians to track this data in their young patients. You know, I do think that it is a helpful measure. At the same time, I mean, it's something of a blunt instrument, the ACE score.
[11:27]
Like, you're not going to teach differently to a student if they have three or four or five ACEs It is, on the other hand, useful for a teacher to know if a particular child has faced a lot of adversity at home. That's a useful piece of information because I think that it gives you a different way of responding to that child, that you know if that student is having trouble focusing or is not following directions or is tending toward confrontation. It doesn't mean you need to excuse that behavior or ignore it, but it does mean you don't have to take it personally, you know, that that you know that this child is prone to anxiety, to confrontation, has a hard time calming down, and there are biological reasons for that. And I do think that that has the potential anyway to change the approach of educators to help them say, this is something that the student does not have entire control over.
[12:20]
Part of my job has to be to help them develop the sort of self-regulation that they need to overcome this disadvantage. And part of how I'm going to do that is to change the environment in my classroom to make it a place of more of a sense of belonging, less of a sense of confrontation, a place where that student can feel really calm and connected and safe.
[12:38] SPEAKER_02:
I was kind of laughing to myself as you mentioned, you know, knowing a student's ACE score, you know, would we actually teach differently to that student knowing their score? And just knowing how data-driven we are in so many schools, I kind of think we might do that if we had the data. We might try to say, well, you're a three and you're a four, so we'll do this. But yeah, I agree with you. The focus is not so much on the particular score of a particular student, but understanding how those factors play in to a student's response to the school environment and, you As educators who know specific kids, we know when we're dealing with a student who has gone through some tough stuff in life. And yet, in terms of our response, I think too often we try to handle that student.
[13:18]
We try to respond to the challenges that they're exhibiting within school. in the ways that we think should work for people like us who maybe have not had those same experiences. And I think especially in terms of discipline, we know as school administrators, Principal Center Radio reaches mostly school administrators, we know kids are not going to learn much in an environment that's full of disruptions and chaotic behavior. And if kids are really having a hard time and making it hard for others to learn, we've got to do something about that. But at the same time, What we're doing with suspending students, and particularly suspending students of color, particularly suspending boys, we know we've got a problem there. We know it's not working.
[13:58]
We know that suspensions just increase the chances that students will drop out. So based on a lot of your research, what can you tell us works for helping students self-regulate, for helping students deal with those problems that they do bring to school that are rooted in some of those adverse childhood experiences, even if we don't have their score, if we see it happening, what are some better approaches than simply kicking kids out of school?
[14:24] SPEAKER_00:
So I'd start off by just saying I take your premise absolutely and I write about discipline in this new book and some of the research around out-of-school suspensions, especially in Chicago, where they keep really good records on this, is really startling. So it's not only that, you know, African-Americans and boys are more likely to be suspended than other students. In Chicago, it's, you know, living in a high-poverty neighborhood greatly increases your risk of suspension, being a low academic performer, and having documented experience of stress and trauma as well. And so once you sort of see those numbers, you understand, like, there is this biological component to a lot of this. And it means that educators are using just sort of the first tool of hand, which is suspending. rather than something that's going to be more productive for our children.
[15:06]
So to answer your question, what can we do? I think that it comes down to changing the climate in the school, and particularly in the classroom, to one that is more conducive of the kind of behavior, the kind of motivation, the kind of connection that I think we want students to have and they want to have. And I talk about two specific toolboxes that I think educators have based in this science. And one has to do with relationships. So one thing that helps students who don't feel a lot of connection with school to feel more motivated, feel better at school, feel safer and more of a sense of belonging is hearing that message and receiving that message from the adults in the building, but also from their peers. You know, I think doing that verbally helps, but I don't think that it's enough.
[15:50]
I don't think it's something we can accomplish through, you know, slogans and t-shirts and assemblies. It really is about one-on-one relationships. So I think there are some teachers who are really good at that and who, when they're encouraged to feel like that can be part of their job, it's not a sign of, you know, softness or weakness. If you express empathy and caring to a student, I think that those one-on-one connections can be really effective. But there are other schools that are systematizing it more as well. I write about the expeditionary learning schools that have this program called CRU, which is not totally different than the advisory programs that a lot of schools have, but a little bit more intentional so that students stay in one CRU, this group of 12, 15 students in their grade for multiple years.
[16:33]
They stay with the same teacher for multiple years and they meet every day for half an hour or so. And it becomes this real sense of community where you talk about school, you talk about home, you talk about family, and students get this sense of belonging that the research suggests is so important for them to feel motivated to do hard work. And then the second toolbox that I think educators can draw on has to do with work. So I do think that even those educators who sort of are very attuned toward this idea of relationships and belonging, there's also I think an instinct that we sometimes have when kids are growing up in real adversity that we shouldn't challenge them too much. That if we give them more sort of remedial work, easier work, we need to build up their self-esteem. If we push them too hard and they fail, they're going to feel badly about themselves and not feel motivated.
[17:21]
And in fact, I think the schools that are most successful are going in the opposite direction and are finding ways with the right level of support to give students really challenging work. And that doesn't just mean, you know. at a higher grade level and more homework every night, it means challenging them in ways that I think are meaningful to them, giving them assignments and projects that are more long-term and engaged, more cooperative with other students in the classroom, using some of these deeper learning techniques that are more popular these days in well-off communities and independent schools. using revision and critique. So instead of just, you know, here's your day's homework, you do it, you get a grade, and then you throw it out. You're working on projects for long periods of time with lots of moments of sort of self-assessment and revision.
[18:07]
And what the research suggests is that this is not only a really effective way to teach academic material, you know, you're more likely to learn math and history and geography when you're learning it that way. It also builds up these non-cognitive or psychological capacities in kids because they have this experience of learning through failure, that they are pushing themselves. They're trying things they didn't think they could do. They're sometimes failing, getting the right kind of support, and then improving what they did, trying again. And that common sense and research both tell us that that is this psychologically very resonant experience that not enough kids are getting in school these days. But when they do get it with the right kind of support, I think it can be really transformative.
[18:46]
It can make a student feel like I have the ability to get better at stuff, to learn things, to improve, to be a real student. And I think there are a lot of kids, especially those growing up in adversity, who don't have that experience when they show up in school every day.
[19:00] SPEAKER_02:
I think that's a great segue to self-determination theory. My wife and I, Dr. Amy Bader, who did her doctoral work at the University of Washington with Marjorie Ginsberg and Camille Farrington, we both sat down at the kitchen table last night and read the excerpt of your book that was in The Atlantic this month. She was very excited to see Camille Farrington's research cited in the excerpt there and to see the connections that you made between self-determination theory and what seems to be working for students in the classroom. So I wonder if you could talk to us for a minute about self-determination theory and how some of the key tenets from that research from Desi and Ryan has translated into the what schools like the EL schools and schools like Cleveland High School in Seattle are doing that's working for students today.
[19:49] SPEAKER_00:
So Camille Farrington, who you mentioned, this researcher at the Consortium on Chicago Schools Research, was one of the thinkers who was most influential on me in this book, Helping Children Succeed, because she, I think more than anyone, has taken the research on motivation, including the work of the self-determination theory of Edward Deasy and Richard Ryans. which makes the case for intrinsic motivation and why a kind of behaviorist approach of material incentives and punishments tends to actually demotivate us rather than to motivate us. And she's really applying this work in the classroom and figuring out what it means for individual students. So DC and Ryan talk about three motivational forces that tend to create intrinsic motivation in students. A sense of belonging, a sense of competence, and a sense of autonomy, that when we feel those things, we are much more likely to feel deeply motivated to do our work.
[20:44]
And you know what, I think anyone who's spent time in a school with a lot of kids in poverty realizes is that there's a lot in the way that we organize our schools and in their lives in general that does not make them feel a sense of belonging and autonomy and competence. And then Camille draws on that research, but also on the mindset research of Carol Dweck and her colleagues like Gregory Walton and Jeffrey Cohen and David Yeager. She sort of distills that into this list of four mindsets that she says are especially helpful for students to have in their minds as they're sitting there in math class, including, I belong in this academic community. My ability improves with my effort. This work is meaningful to me. I can succeed at this.
[21:27]
And when students have those mindsets, when they deeply believe those things, when they're sitting there in class, they are much more likely to feel motivated to do work. And most importantly, she says, and I think she's right, they're much more motivated to persist through failure. She talks a lot about how moments of failure are these key moments in a student's motivation. It's certainly the moment where kids can go off track if they get the wrong kind of messages surrounding failure. But it's also the moment where kids can learn a very different approach to school. They can learn that failure is actually a learning experience, a sign that you're getting better at something if you're having setbacks.
[22:03]
And so when schools can find the right way to frame failure as a potentially positive thing in a child's life, what Camille says and what I agree with is that that turns into a deep kind of motivation for students that can overcome a lot of these early disadvantages.
[22:18] SPEAKER_02:
Right, right. The way we structure those experiences and support students through them certainly makes a huge difference. So I wanted to ask about some of the controversies that have arisen, maybe not about your work specifically, but in the way that educators and schools have responded to your work or in in Maybe in our minds, we're acting on what you've shared with us, but I know we've gone afield from that a little bit. And I was reading Daniel Engber's critique of The Grit book by Angela Duckworth in Slate recently. And there's this idea that because that experience of how we process failure is critical to our development of intrinsic motivation and work ethic and all those kind of non-cognitive factors. We want students to have the experience of persevering and succeeding and working through struggles.
[23:11]
One of the things that Engber says in his piece is that students from very difficult backgrounds have had plenty of the adversity piece of that. And in schools, I think we've sometimes taken a little bit of a, what my friend Larry Ferlazzo calls, kind of a let them eat character approach, where we just kind of have a pep rally and kind of drill sergeant approach to helping students power through adversity. What do you think about that? What do you see schools doing that's going wrong? What do you see schools doing that's maybe a little bit more constructive on that front?
[23:49] SPEAKER_00:
It's a great question, and it's one that really motivated this discussion. And as a non-educator, I don't feel comfortable critiquing educators and saying they're doing it wrong. And so I want to be cautious in doing that. And I do think that any educator who's trying to deal with this research and trying to figure out how to help motivate students and have them develop these habits that are more positive is doing good work. I mean, I think any attempt to figure this out is really positive. But that said, I do think that getting this right is really hard.
[24:19]
Doing what I'm prescribing, creating an environment in the classroom that's conducive to belonging and connection and autonomy and competence is really hard. And it's especially hard when you're facing a classroom of students who are coming to you with these amped up stress response systems and so are more potentially prone to confrontation, find it harder to concentrate. It's really hard to do intense, creative, long-term projects. And there's a real urge to just, yeah, say like, okay, You kids figure out your own grit. I'm going to give you the homework, and you sit there and do it. And the gritty ones are the ones who can just do more of the homework that I'm assigning.
[24:57]
But that's really not what the research is suggesting. And I think there's always, especially when we're faced with a really difficult task like helping educate low-income kids, I think there is always an urge to look for the easy way out. And I think that because this research... has not yet had sort of clear prescriptions for how we should run our schools differently.
[25:16]
I think it's natural that teachers have kind of, in some cases, oversimplified this work. And so what I'm trying to do in helping children succeed is just both kind of complicate the message a little bit and discourage the kind of quick fix approach to character and grit and non-cognitive skills. But also try and provide something more productive for those stressed out teachers who feel like, okay, you know, you told me this stuff was important. You didn't tell me what to do. So, you know, I'm doing the best I can and now you're saying I'm doing it wrong. You know, I'm trying to say there are things that we can learn from this research, both psychological research on motivation and the neurobiological research on stress.
[25:57]
that can change our approach in the classroom, that can help you create an environment that's more conducive to success. And I'll say just one more thing about that, which is that at the same time that I'm trying to give educators that toolbox, I also, with equal urgency, trying to make the case that it's not up to teachers alone to solve this. I do think that there are things that any teacher can do tomorrow in their classroom that are going to push more in this direction. But I also think this can't possibly be the job of teachers alone to solve. And so a big chunk of the book talks about policy and talks about ways that we could change our early childhood policies, our assessment policies, our curriculum, all of the things that are beyond what a teacher can do to help support those teachers and make this job easier for them.
[26:43] SPEAKER_02:
Absolutely. And one thing I want to challenge our listeners to do at the administrative level is to really look at discipline policy, because I think it's impossible to read your book without realizing that we need to change some things in our profession as adults. as administrators, the way we handle student discipline, the types of supports we put in place, the way we prioritize counseling and mental health care as a key resource for our students who are in serious need of that type of support. I really want to challenge people to get into the nuance there. And I think one thing you've done incredibly well in this book is you've taken the specific research that's been done, the neuroscience, the psychology research, the understanding of childhood trauma, the understanding of human motivation and why some of the traditional things that we do around incentives just don't work
[27:36]
for the subset of students who have had these more challenging life experiences. So I want to challenge us as a profession to really get into that and not approach it at a kind of slogan level. And I think probably your experience has been similar to Carol Dweck's and similar to Angela Duckworth's in having your work popularized at a slogan level much farther than perhaps the nuances of it have been. So I really want to challenge you people to, uh, to get into the, uh, the actual research. You make it very accessible. This is a brief book, uh, under 130 pages, but, but loaded with, uh, very specific insights.
[28:14]
Um, Paul, if people want to find out more about your work and, uh, learn more about the book, helping children succeed, where can they find you online?
[28:20] SPEAKER_00:
Uh, I have a website at paultough.com and, um, uh they're actually in a few days uh maybe perhaps by the time this airs there will be a rich resource at paultuff.com slash helping so that's my name p-a-u-l-t-o-u-g-h.com and then slash helping just the first word of the book title um so not only will the whole text of the book be there but there will also be um videos and links to research uh and graphs and images that I hope make this research more accessible, but also provide resources for a sort of deeper dive for educators who want to learn more about any of the approaches or the research that I talk about in the book.
[29:02] SPEAKER_02:
Well, Paul, thank you so much for joining us on Principal Center Radio.
[29:05] SPEAKER_01:
Thanks. And now, Justin Bader on high-performance instructional leadership.
[29:15] SPEAKER_02:
So high performance instructional leaders, what did you take away from my conversation with Paul Tuff? I hope you could tell this was a fun one for me. I really enjoyed getting into some of the research that Paul has been exploring over the last couple of years in all of his books and on This American Life, and also reading some of the critiques of the response in our profession to this idea of grit and the idea of character traits and trying to teach and measure character. And as I mentioned, Larry Flazzo and I have talked about this kind of mindset in education that if we can just tell students to be tougher, if we can just teach them to be more resilient, then that'll work. And I think the research that Paul shares in his latest book really helps us get into the nuance of that and helps us see beyond some of those kind of oversimplifications that we've resorted to.
[30:06]
I want to highly recommend to you the book, Helping Children Succeed, What Works and Why, Paul Tuff's newest book. I want to encourage you to buy a copy for yourself, get into that research, make that one of your book study books for the coming year. And I want to encourage you to share that with your faculty. Paul has been very generous in actually putting the entire book online for free. You've got the money, so go ahead and buy the book and read it for yourself, underline it, do all that. But there's not any barrier to making that book available to everyone in your school.
[30:36]
Just send out that link and we'll include that on our website here. But I also want to challenge us as practitioners who rely on research to know what to do. I want to challenge us as a profession to go beyond the slogan version. Well, students need grit. Okay, we'll teach them grit. Well, there's actually a lot more behind that.
[30:55]
And I've seen this happen over and over again with, again, Angela Duckworth's research on grit and with Carol Dweck's research on mindset. And I think we've got to do better. And one of the key ways that we can do better is to actually learn about the research for ourselves. So I want to challenge you again to check out Helping Children Succeed, What Works and Why by Paul Tuff.
[31:17] Announcer:
Thanks for listening to Principal Center Radio. For more great episodes, subscribe on our website at principalcenter.com slash radio.
