Closing the Loop: Systems Thinking for Designers

[00:01] Announcer:

Welcome to Principal Center Radio, helping you build capacity for instructional leadership. Here's your host, Director of the Principal Center, Dr. Justin Bader. Welcome, everyone, to Principal Center Radio.

[00:13] SPEAKER_00:

I'm your host, Justin Bader, and I'm honored to welcome to the program today Cheryl Kababa. Cheryl is Chief Strategy Officer at Substantial, a human-centered design practice that's focused on systems thinking and evidence-based design, working on everything from robotic surgery experience design to reimagining K-12 education through service design. Cheryl has worked with a diverse base of clients, including the Gates Foundation, Microsoft, and IKEA. She holds a BA in journalism and political science from Syracuse University and is an international speaker and workshop facilitator and teaches at the University of Washington in human-centered design and engineering in Seattle. And she's the author of Closing the Loop, System Thinking for Designers.

[00:57] Announcer:

And now, our feature presentation.

[00:59] SPEAKER_00:

Cheryl, welcome to Principal Center Radio.

[01:01] SPEAKER_01:

Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be talking to you today.

[01:05] SPEAKER_00:

Well, I'm excited to talk about your work in human-centered design and systems thinking, especially when it comes to K-12 education and service delivery, because frankly, most of what we have in education is that way by accident, right? We built our public education system piece by piece over a very, very long period of time. And in a lot of cases, no real design went into various things. So what is systems thinking? What is human-centered design?

[01:35] SPEAKER_01:

For sure. So I run what I call an equity centered design practice. And so that's kind of thinking about how we can use design in order to create more equitable products and solutions. And I think a key part of that is that typically in the design process, we're thinking about who our end users are, just like the people who will be using, let's say if you're designing ed tech or like digital products, the people who will be using your products, that could be students or teachers. If you take that and combine it with systems thinking, it makes it even more powerful because what that allows you to do is understand the various stakeholders in the system, how things are interconnected and, and, You know, you're not just sort of like laser focused on like how an individual might be experiencing something.

[02:31]

Because as a sort of former product designer and developer, I've found that, you know, oftentimes you can create the best solutions, you can create the best digital product, but there's all these other barriers and challenges within the system along the way. that might prevent it success or, you know, create pitfalls that, you might not have thought about as you're kind of developing a product. And that exists extensively in education, because as you said, there's systems in place that have been sort of designed piecemeal. And when it all comes together, there could be various things that present a challenge to making change within that system. One of the things that we worked on recently in our practice was we worked with the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation on creating sort of specifications for how to solve the problem of algebra within education.

[03:32]

So algebra is a gateway course. is oftentimes considered a precursor or a predictor of whether somebody will be able to move on to college or like experience college success. And there's lots of issues there, especially when it comes to equity. And so what the Gates Foundation was doing was trying to figure out like, what do we need to, what sort of solutions do we need to fund? You can fund like very discreet things like tutoring solutions, right? Like digital platform that has virtual tutors on it, but you also could fund other aspects within the system like teacher professional development or community support or different ways of thinking about how to make content more culturally responsive.

[04:20]

So there's all these different avenues to solve for this problem. And oftentimes when you look at funding solutions, they're thinking about a very specific solution. So you might fund an ed tech platform, for example, that's like a math platform. And it might not, it might only sort of manage to do like some specific things in terms of solving what you're broadly trying to solve for. And so what we did was sort of understand that within the system, there's these different avenues of potential intervention. And you can kind of fund those different ways of problem solving.

[05:03]

So that's kind of like the systems view of it. But that was informed by talking to students, talking to teachers, talking to school administrators to basically understand like where they thought the solutions could lie. And then kind of like coming up with this like more holistic view of the problem space.

[05:24] SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, a kind of thinking that's so important, but also so difficult to do. And as a child of the 80s, I grew up with movies like Field of Dreams. You know, if you build it, they will come. As any senior leader in a school or district can tell you, often that is not the case, right? When we buy something and roll it out or build it, often people don't actually come, they don't use it. We put all this money and effort and training into some sort of system, whether that's an academic support system, or maybe let's say a website or an app that we want people to use.

[05:56]

And we just expect that if we build it, they will come and they don't. So you're saying one of the key steps here was to start with students and take us into some of the process in just kind of figuring out what students needed and how they would behave.

[06:09] SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, a lot of our projects start with interviewing students and teachers and kind of asking about their experiences. Like, let's say we're trying to understand what are the challenges when it comes to algebra and learning. And it's interesting because if we're kind of thinking about like, what are the potential like digital support systems for example and we start asking students and teachers about kind of the digital products that they use like within the landscape of their school environment and learning everybody is going rogue on some level right we interview teachers in like every single one of our projects with my team and I've yet to meet a teacher who is not just like totally using some products or services that fall outside of what their school district is using because it helps them do their job better.

[07:03]

And then on the flip side of that, as you mentioned, school districts provide all sorts of tools and services like learning management systems and what have you that people either feel forced to use or they try to avoid using because they are not given a say in whether these things are implemented. So there's kind of a division between those who are providing the tools and services and those who are using them. And there's somewhat of a disconnect there. And that's fair on the administrative side. Oftentimes you're thinking about different things and different motivators like cost. How much is it going to cost?

[07:42]

How well is this going to integrate into the learning management system that we're using across the board? Is it going to work with the devices that we have in our school? Is it going to be easy to implement? Is it potentially easy to use? And like things like integration and budget are like part of the motivators. Whereas when you go directly in the classroom, it's like, how is this going to help me do my job better?

[08:10]

And how is it going to help me teach better? And then with students, it's like, is this even engaging for me? Do I even want to be using this tool? And so I think you see some products, for example, like the beginnings of Khan Academy, right? Which was like sort of a supplemental that students were using independently. And then teachers started kind of like using it in the classroom.

[08:33]

And now Khan Academy as an organization is investing in like, how do we be better integrated formally within schools but that's a really good example of like a grassroots product that did not start by coming from like top-down you know administrative decisions within schools it came from teachers and students kind of using it first and it kind of like bubbling up as a useful and in some ways necessary tool for many teachers and students within the classroom

[09:07] SPEAKER_00:

One general phenomenon I wanted to ask about, I think is known maybe by different names, but among others, the Matthew effect, the idea that the most likely people to benefit from anything that we do are already the people who are doing the best. And the people who are least likely to benefit from anything that we're trying to do are the people who most need the help. And I think about examples like if we want to offer, say, an SAT or ACT prep course, well, how do we think about this problem that the people who are most likely to sign up for it are probably the students who need it the least or are most likely to go take their own and the students who we really want this to help? maybe the least likely to actually take advantage of it or to benefit from it. How might we think about a problem like that using the language and the frameworks in your book if we want to get more kids helped by this SAT or ACT prep program?

[09:59] SPEAKER_01:

That's really interesting because it sort of reflects the way that we approach our work when we're using essentially equity centered design and decision making with our clients and partners. And I think one way of thinking about it is you should always be kind of considering which groups, like, so if you're thinking about students, which student groups are the most Historically under-resourced, which of those are the most marginalized by the current system. And there's a philosophy and you know, this philosophy is oftentimes called inclusive design or targeted universalism. And the idea is that you focus on designing for those who are most at the margins and everyone else will benefit in some way or another.

[10:52]

And I think the mistake we often make, for example, in developing things like EdTech products, and not just EdTech products, but digital products in general, is that we're sort of thinking about and designing for those who have a lot of privilege and resources. And then, as you were saying, it doesn't serve those who have the most need or who have the least amount of resources. But if you do it the other way around... then you can actually benefit others by way of that.

[11:22]

Like good example that's used often in inclusive design. There's a couple of good examples. One is curb cuts, right? Curb cuts were designed for those who have disabilities and are in wheelchairs, but a lot of other people benefit from curb cuts. If you're just walking alongside with the bike or you're pushing a stroller with your child in it, or you're somebody who's using a walker, like any of these people benefit from curb cuts. And another example that's often used is subtitles in movies and TV, right?

[11:58]

Like that is designed as a way of helping those who have low hearing. And I don't know about you, but I watch TV with subtitles all the time because like, I have like dogs barking. I have like kids in the house. I'm like, oftentimes trying to keep the volume low if I'm watching something like late and it ends up benefiting many other people in all these other circumstances. So for example, like a lot, like some of our projects are focused on how do we understand like, multi-language learners or students who have english as a second language if we design for them that oftentimes others benefit i've had teachers say like okay i am teaching primarily esl students and i use a lot of video in the classroom and it's kind of like guess what like that motivates and benefits other students too, who are not English as a second language.

[12:50]

So I think it's like, this is sort of our fundamental philosophy is if like you design first with those in mind, with those in the margins, you're going to benefit others. And I think it's one of those things that you kind of see works quite frequently and also in environments like education.

[13:07] SPEAKER_00:

So Cheryl, one of the things that I think most of us have seen happen over and over again is we identify a problem and then we quickly decide on a solution, whether that's a solution that we build in-house or a solution that we purchase. And often there are many people who are eager to help us purchase solutions. You have kind of an iceberg model, though, for understanding a problem and designing a solution. Take us into that, if you could.

[13:34] SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, for sure. So one of the things that I'm kind of a big believer in decision makers getting together and just kind of like a workshop and trying to understand and analyze a problem space, right? So one of the things that I emphasize around systems thinking is really understanding the status quo, like really understanding problem space and a good way to kind of get alignment on that with your decision makers. So if you're a school administrator, it's kind of like working with your team on like okay, how do we kind of understand why things are the way they are and then kind of think about solutions? There's a startup founder and I cannot remember his name. Maybe somebody will let us know, but he often says, fall in love with your problem rather than like falling in love with a solution.

[14:21]

So it's really important to get a grasp on the problem space. And one of my favorite frameworks is the iceberg diagram. So it's literally an iceberg. And at the top, you see events. And then underneath the surface, you see patterns and trends, you see structure and you see mental models. And I think oftentimes we're responding to events and then we try to solve for those events.

[14:46]

But what's really nice about kind of like working on this diagram with like your decision making team or with other stakeholders is identifying patterns and trends, structure and mental models that kind of fall beneath that. So in the example that I used around Algebra 1 being a really important course, you know, we see the event might be that who we call priority students, which are oftentimes students of color, students who are multi-language learners. disproportionately enter ninth grade missing prerequisite algebra knowledge. So this is like the problem we're seeing on the surface. And then below that, you kind of see the role that assessments play. You kind of see basically that many of these students are tracked in ways that affect their ability to stay on track in order to be able to go to college.

[15:38]

And then Math instruction, there's the mental model level where math instruction maybe feels irrelevant to these students. And how do you kind of address the tensions between traditional math instruction and how it might not feel relevant to students? And so these all present potential opportunities for change, right? And any of those could result in a decision that It could be solved by products. It could be solved by a service. It could be solved by just like changes in operations.

[16:12]

And what you do then is you kind of like identify avenues of potential change. And this is just like a really simple thing. You can just like bring into your decision-making meetings in order to basically get a handle on your problem space. And I think it's a good way to integrate systems thinking into anyone's work.

[16:31] SPEAKER_00:

Love it. Can we try it real quick with another example? Sure. I love this. So I've got the iceberg model pulled up and we'll post this link. It's at substantial.com and your article on systems thinking in ed tech.

[16:42]

But I was wondering if we could apply this model to attendance because I was reading an article the other day about just how common it is for students to get suspended for truancy. We'll give you a second to think about that. We're suspending kids from school for being absent from school. So this to me is like the perfect scenario to rethink with a little bit of design thinking. So if our event are above the surface of the water, a chunk of the iceberg that we can see floating up there, that is truancy, right? We have a kid who's just not coming to school as often as they need to.

[17:12]

They're just excessive absences. Kid is not showing up. And our traditional approaches are not effective, especially if those approaches include suspending them. So take us into the beneath the surface aspects. How might we think about, and I'll be happy to give some of the specific examples, but take us into how we might think about what else is going on there when a student is chronically absent from school.

[17:33] SPEAKER_01:

So that's a really good example because there is clearly something happening on the surface. I also want to point out what you're mentioning, which is there's truancy and then there's suspension. There's another method that you can see in my book, which is called causal loops. And this is kind of like how things create vicious cycles. And I think that's a good example of a vicious cycle. I won't get into it, but yeah, that's a really interesting sort of relationship between that quote unquote solution and the problem.

[18:01]

So what I would ask first is so you have truancy happening and that's what you're trying to understand is like, what is the root cause of that? And what can you do to solve for those root causes? So we could actually kind of like leave out the idea of the solutions such as suspension already, although it might factor into some of the structural things that are actually causing further truancy. But I would first ask, what are the patterns and trends that you're seeing that are leading to the truancy? that have been happening over time. So let's imagine like you're one of my stakeholders and what are maybe some things that come to mind when it comes to why the truancy is happening or like things happening over time?

[18:46] SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So I'd say, especially for our students who maybe are not participating in a lot of activities, when they do show up, they just kind of go to class and that's it. They're not really involved in things. People don't necessarily miss them when they're gone, or maybe they have some conflict with other students. Maybe there have been some complaints of bullying or conflict with other kids. So maybe the overall experience that these students are having is not especially compelling.

[19:08]

They're not having a good time when they come to school, both academically or socially.

[19:14] SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So that's a really good thing to recognize. And what I would do is take some of those avenues and sort of drill down on them. So it's kind of like, okay, students, you know, they don't have like good relationships with other students. Are there things structurally within the school environment that are contributing to that would be a good question. Like, What are the things that are actual decisions or bureaucratic decisions that might be contributing to that?

[19:42]

I don't necessarily have to call out the poor relationships. There could also be like, like you're saying, like there's a lack of interest in outside activities or they're just showing up just for class. Are there any structural things beneath those that are sort of contributing to that pattern?

[20:00] SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. One thing that comes to mind, and again, this is a hypothetical here, but one thing that comes to mind is sometimes we have a lot of requirements for being part of this or being part of that. You have to show up after school. You have to show up early. Your parents have to pay money for things. So a lot of those are less accessible to students who have fewer family resources.

[20:16]

Maybe they're reliant on the school bus to get to and from school. So a lot of the things that are the most engaging for students are the least accessible to these students who are struggling with attendance.

[20:27] SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, that's really interesting. So it's almost like rather than structures that contribute to the patterns that lead to truancy. So it was just like working your way up the iceberg. There's the lack of structural support to create other behaviors. And so let's say transportation is a problem, right? Like, are there ways that a school or a district can create transportation options for students that would ease the burden of getting to and from like different things that would further engage students in the school, thereby kind of like changing their mindset about how engaged they are in school, because it sounds like there is that relationship between truancy and whether a student is engaged or really feels like part of the school community.

[21:15]

And I think what you're getting at, like with all that, which is really nice with Iceberg models, you're starting to get at the mental models, which is at the bottom layer, which is kind of like this relationship between engagement in school holistically and whether a student is showing up The lack of that is part of the beliefs or mental models that shape this sort of problem space. There's a mental model maybe with students that are just like school is school. Like it's, I'm not prioritizing it. I don't get anything out of it except for like, I'm supposed to sit in a classroom. So that's one belief that stems from the student side. There are other maybe potential beliefs that are creating the lack of structure, which is like this idea from maybe the administrators that there is no need to do things like provide transportation or there's like enough support there already.

[22:11]

And so how do you sort of shift those beliefs in a way that can then create the structures that can then change the patterns and trends over time. And so this is sort of like a little bit of a shallow analysis because like we would probably branch off, like I was saying, and kind of like go into more of these like discrete areas that you had identified in patterns and trends and just like drill down. And you have these like little branches going down in your iceberg diagram. And I would recommend anybody doing this, like on a whiteboard or someplace big and then putting sticky notes up and moving them around and And what you should emerge with is some like clear problem spaces that you can tackle or that you can kind of think about as core to like how to solve problems within the space. And then I would move on to something like a theory of change, which is like, here are the different solutions we're thinking about.

[23:04]

And here's how we actually get them to happen. Yeah.

[23:07] SPEAKER_00:

I know a certain segment of our audience is central office administrators who are completely geeking out on this right now and wish we had time to get into mapping stakeholders and forces. And as you said, theory of change, unintended consequences, speculative design, and all that you get into in the book. But we will link to that article with the iceberg diagram. And the book is Closing the Loop, Systems Thinking for Designers. Cheryl, if people want to learn more about your work or follow you online, where are some of the best places for them to go?

[23:36] SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, so you can look at the work that my firm has done and that would be at substantial.com slash ed tag. And that's where the article that Justin's going to link to. And you can find me on LinkedIn. I'm the only Cheryl Kababa on LinkedIn. Feel free to reach out to me there or connect with me.

[23:54]

I'm always happy to hear from folks. And also you can find my book at Rosenfeld Media, which is my publisher.

[24:01] SPEAKER_00:

Cheryl, thank you so much for joining me on Principal Center Radio. It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much, Justin.

[24:05] SPEAKER_01:

This is a really fun conversation.

[24:07] Announcer:

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