Dealing with Difficult Parents (School Leader Edition): How to Model, Coach, and Support Your Teachers

[00:01] Announcer:

Welcome to Principal Center Radio, helping you build capacity for instructional leadership. Here's your host, Director of the Principal Center, Dr. Justin Bader. Welcome, everyone, to Principal Center Radio.

[00:13] SPEAKER_00:

I'm your host, Justin Bader, and I'm honored to welcome to the program Dr. Todd Whitaker. Todd is a research professor at the University of Missouri and professor emeritus at Indiana State University. And prior to moving into higher education, he was a math teacher, basketball coach in Missouri, then served as a principal at the middle school, junior high, and high school levels. Dr. Whitaker is a leading presenter in the field of education and has written more than 65 books, including the bestseller, What Great Teachers Do Differently.

[00:40]

And he's the author of Dealing with Difficult Parents, Teacher Edition, How to Get Parents Off Your Back and On Your Side, and Dealing with Difficult Parents, School Leader Edition, How to Model, Coach, and Support Your Teachers, both of which we're here to talk about today.

[00:55] Announcer:

And now, our feature presentation.

[00:57] SPEAKER_00:

Dr. Whitaker, welcome to Principal Center Radio.

[00:59] SPEAKER_02:

Well, thank you, Justin. I'm honored to be here, and I appreciate you taking the time to visit, and I'm very excited to connect with you and the listeners.

[01:07] SPEAKER_00:

Well, likewise. And thank you for your time. And thank you for the work that you've done, I think, to inspire and guide so many. I mean, I almost feel silly reading a bio because everybody knows who you are. Everybody's familiar with your work. And I wonder if you could take us into kind of the origin of these two books.

[01:23] SPEAKER_02:

Well, it's also fair. My first book was dealing with difficult teachers. So I'm not a one-sided guy. I try to be on the side of right. And one of the things that I think is also really important to keep in mind When we generalize, we never solve problems. You know, the problem isn't teachers.

[01:40]

The problem may be this one teacher. The problem isn't students. But I'm not pretending there isn't a student that's highly challenging. And the problem isn't parents. However, the problem can be this one parent you're getting ready to meet with. So I want us to always think of it that way, if that makes any sense.

[01:57]

And my book, the first edition of Dealing with Difficult Parents was I think my third book. And it's really because I was a principal and I realized I had to teach my teachers how to interact with parents because I don't want them to lose confidence if they interact with parents incorrectly. I'm never worried about the teacher interacting with a parent and the parent coming to see me mad. I actually like it. I need stimulation. And so an angry parent isn't a problem.

[02:24]

But do you see, especially a newish teacher or a newer teacher, if one of their first parent contacts is negative, potentially they become afraid of parents. And I understand that. I'm not even critical of that. And I don't want them to feel that way. And I've learned the real key to help people with things is to be very specific. I don't want you to guess, you know, it's sort of like one of the things I like to say to my teachers, I'm not smart enough to think of two things that'll work, but here's one just in case, because people don't need three things that work, but they sure would like to have one thing that works.

[02:57]

And it's really teaching them specifically what to say, kind of how to say it, literally where to sit. How do you start the conversation? How do you end the conversation? And all of those things seem to be helpful for the teachers. And I just wanted that because I don't want us to be afraid. And I also want us to realize the vast majority of parents support schools, are great advocates, work well with kids, but we're kidding ourselves if we think it's 100%.

[03:26]

And the one or 2% can make us afraid to go to work, can make us afraid to contact any parents, can make us nervous about that. And I don't want people to come into work with that level of doubt or concern. I think that's unfair to people who care and try as much as educators do.

[03:42] SPEAKER_00:

I know these are second and third editions, and this is not a new problem that you are tackling, but it does seem to be a perennial one that you are not afraid to name, that some parents sometimes are difficult. Take us into the nature of that problem a bit.

[03:57] SPEAKER_02:

Right, yes. But I also don't want to get confused in the fact that the better you are, the less that happens to you. You know, I mean, you don't have near as many people, parents out of control, complaining about the three best teachers in a school. But I'm not pretending it could be zero, but it's very seldom. So you also, at the same time, are working on building the skills of the teachers in the classroom in terms of teaching and learning, in terms of interaction with kids. Or else what happens is we never solve problems.

[04:27]

I'll work with teachers and I'll ask them to list characteristics of difficult parents. And I'll work with parents and ask them to list characteristics of difficult teachers. And it's like that's the exact same list. And it's just because we're all people, you know, I mean, we're just all people and the traits we have that aren't the best. Sometimes we carry them with us in all settings. And so that's kind of where that comes from.

[04:50] SPEAKER_00:

And that's such a different perspective from the idea of trying to just prevent angry parents from existing, right? Like we're going to have people who get upset. We're going to have people who call us and are challenging. We're going to have people who come in and threaten us. Like these things are going to happen in every school, right?

[05:09] SPEAKER_02:

Yes. But I also don't want to get confused in the fact that the better you are, the less that happens to you. You know, I mean, you don't have near as many people parents out of control complaining about the three best teachers in a school. But I'm not pretending it could be zero, but it's very seldom. So you also, at the same time, are working on building the skills of the teachers in the classroom in terms of teaching and learning, in terms of interaction with kids, or else what happens is we never solve problems. I'll work with teachers and I'll ask them to list characteristics of difficult parents.

[05:43]

And I'll work with parents and ask them to list characteristics of difficult teachers. And it's like that's the exact same list. And it's just because we're all people. You know, I mean, we're just all people. And the traits we have that aren't the best, sometimes we carry them with us in all settings. And so that's kind of where that comes from.

[06:02] SPEAKER_00:

Well, let's start with the perspective of say a new teacher, maybe a teacher who's new to your school. What do you want them to know about dealing with parents so that even though this is not a problem we can completely prevent, we have fewer people who come to us upset. We have fewer complaints. We have fewer challenges to, you know, to what we're doing and more support and people are happy with the experience that their kids are getting. What do you want teachers to know?

[06:24] SPEAKER_02:

I think there's a couple of things. One of the things is just really directly related to parents and That we need to build a relationship before we need the relationship. And the concept of understanding back to school night, open house night, whatever you call it. Meet the teacher night. They're called different things in different places. And one thing I work with on leaders, if you have something like that, have it before school year starts.

[06:48]

Don't wait until the third week of school. Because if you do it before the school year starts, you're still undefeated. And so is the parent and so is their kid. You do it two, three weeks in the school year. Some of the teachers know they're not undefeated. Some of the parents assume there's no chance their kid's undefeated.

[07:04]

And some of the students, so all of a sudden then people don't even want to come. And if we wait three weeks into the school year, it's mini parent-teacher conference. And then we need the relationship, but we haven't built it yet, if that makes any sense. So it's even understanding stuff like back to school night, open house night, meet the teacher night. The one purpose of it is to glad hand. just to build relationships.

[07:25]

It isn't to help them understand the curriculum. It isn't to help them understand the grading policy. And people listening can think I have parents mad about this, but they're not mad about this at back to school night before the school year starts. They don't care about your grading policy. They care that you're going to take care of their kids. And this is K through forever.

[07:44]

You know, that never goes away. And it's understanding that relationship. Many times we have teachers, especially at the elementary where there may be a more manageable number, will make sure they call and introduce themselves to every family. And when I say parents, I trust the audience's ability to insert whatever language they need related to the students in their classroom. But if I say parents slash grandparents slash relatives slash, it's non-readable. I don't use he slash she in my reading because I think it's non-readable to people.

[08:16]

And everybody can translate this. So keep that in mind that I am sensitive to it. I'm just also sensitive to the reader to try to make it make sense. If you call and introduce yourself to everybody and just tell them how excited you are to have their sons, daughters, children in the classroom with you. That's a way to build the relationship even before you have back-to-school night. One of my schools, my last school had 1,350 middle school kids, and we had, before the school year started, we had a group of kids, not supervised by teachers, supervised by parents, that they called and invited 1,350 kids.

[08:54]

families to open house night. And we had to give the kids scripts because it's middle school kids. And if we didn't give them a script, the word thunder, but would probably be in every third call. So we didn't really want that, but we laid it out specifically. Here's what you say. If you get the parent, here's what you say.

[09:08]

If you get a answering machine, here's what you say. If you get the kid and the parents not there, here's what you say. If you get a different, because I want you to be comfortable calling. because you know what to say because we want people there so we can connect with them. And as you move to middle school, junior high, high school, which I was a principal at all three levels, you need more of that because you want to, like I said, have a relationship before you need the relationship.

[09:31] SPEAKER_00:

think that's so crucial. And we're on the way to school today. And my younger daughter, who's in seventh grade said, Oh, Hey, did you get a call from so-and-so, you know, one of her teachers or one of the teachers at the school who may not even be one of her teachers. And my wife had gotten the call and it was interesting to hear her, you know, as a seventh grader describe their intentions of just, you know, trying to build a relationship and be proactive. And I think even kids to get that that goes so far and interesting. You even had kids do the inviting of the families and make that initial contact to get them to come to that event where they could connect with teachers face to face.

[10:06] SPEAKER_02:

And we had all sorts of contests where the principals and assistant principals would serve the six classes that had the largest percentage of kids represented and just things like that. So we would draw that. And my last school, we had about 1500 people come to back to school night. And when I started as principal, we had less than 200. And when I had the 1,500 parents, it was only five minutes with me. Nobody wants to see the principal.

[10:29]

They want to meet the teacher. Nobody wants to hear about the birthing pains. They just want to see the baby. I mean, so keep that in mind. But I would tell 1,500 parents, call me or email me anytime you want to. call me at work call me on my cell call me at home because i wanted to build trust so they felt more comfortable i wouldn't get more calls but i guarantee you people left impressed and left that they felt like this person really cares and wants us to have a relationship with them and so that was helpful from the leader's perspective but i had a lot of teachers that would do that too

[11:03] SPEAKER_00:

And I think a lot of people are hesitant to give out their cell phone because they're worried that they'll get bombarded. They're worried that they'll get calls late at night. Did that ever happen in your experience?

[11:13] SPEAKER_02:

Sure. You know, it was funny. The first time I ever did it, we had about 1,500 people. And a couple of parents came up and goes, how can you give your phone number to 1,500 people? And I said, well, the idiots are going to call me anyway. And we're very blessed that the idiots somehow or another get that cell phone anyhow and will call you anyway.

[11:30]

And I think the good people just... It makes them feel better about you and your school, even if they know they're never going to call you. And it's really funny. The other thing is that I think is really important with teachers, if you have to deliver bad news, one thing is never deliver bad news in writing.

[11:51]

And just remember, the phone is your best friend unless it's ringing. So if you can beat the kid home first, and you almost always can, but don't tell the kid you're going to call the parent with bad news because the kid will prep the parent. And it doesn't matter if you don't have a cell phone policy. The most challenging kids have burner phones in their pocket like Kevin Durant. I mean, I'm just letting you know that. And they can text with their left hand.

[12:14]

And when I call the parent, I like to have the student with me. And they don't know I'm going to call the parent. I may get them out of another class. I may get them out of lunch, recess. It just depends on what age and grade it is. And I have them call me, and I say, Hi, Mrs. Johnson, this is Todd Whitaker.

[12:27]

I'm Kevin's math teacher, and I'm sorry to bother you at work. Today at school, such and such happened. I'm describing his behavior, and as a result, such and such is going to happen, and I would describe his consequence. And then I say, and he's right here if you'd like to talk to him, and I literally hand the student the phone. And I don't do it to catch anyone off guard. I don't do it to cause turmoil.

[12:47]

I really do it because I'm time stamping the story. We all got to hear the story at the exact same time. And what I'm really saying is if you'd like to dispute the story, here's your son. If your son would like to dispute the story, here's your mom. And I'm right here. Because if not, if I don't do that then and the kid gets home first, they're going to provide potentially a tweaked story that's slightly different than possibly my version of what happened.

[13:14]

And it takes eight times longer to unlearn something than it does learn something. And if the kid beat you home first, it's going to take eight times the effort for you to just get to neutral with them. And if you beat the kid home first, it's going to take eight times the effort on the kid to even get to you to neutral with them. And it's just understanding that as a teacher. And I used to have my new teachers come in, and they'd listen to me make challenging parent phone calls. I'd save up three or four.

[13:37]

Because I always want all my teachers to understand every phone call you ever make, you always start with the same stem. Every phone call you make, same tone, same manner. It's always professional. It's not personal. But professional can be kind, loving, caring, friendly, nice, supportive. You don't want to call a parent and start off with good news, good news.

[13:56]

Because the next time you call, if you don't start off that way, they know it's bad news. And I do never want to set that tone. And I want my new teachers to hear me always use the same tone. I always have the same stem. I never get rattled. I never get defensive.

[14:11]

I never get offensive because they can't be that way in the classroom either. And I wanted them to hear that and also do something. And it's funny because a lot of principals think, well, aren't the teachers evaluating you when they're doing that? Well, they're evaluating you every day anyhow, aren't they? And I'd rather you evaluate me by watching me than evaluate me in the teacher's lounge. And so it's just helping them.

[14:32]

realize how we can handle this, how we can maintain control, how we shift to focus on the future. If a parent and I do not agree on a decision, instead of continuing to go in circles about that decision, we focus on the future, meaning what can we do so this doesn't happen again? What can we do so we get a better result? And that gives the teacher an additional tool, but they need to hear it or see it first. That gives them a little more sense of that. An additional tool that they can use with the most challenging parents.

[15:01]

I'm not worried about teachers handling normal parents. I don't write books called how to get a parent you wish would to be a little tiny bit more involved during parent teacher conference. I don't write that book because we're not afraid of that. We're concerned about the 5%. We're concerned about the worst situation. If I can teach you how to handle the worst situation, I have great faith you can handle everything else that's easier than that.

[15:27] SPEAKER_00:

So Todd, earlier in our conversation, you talked about protecting the teacher's confidence and wanting the teacher to feel like they could handle any situation that they had to deal with. But you also acknowledge in the book that sometimes the teacher is not in the right. And when we hear from a parent, sometimes they have a legitimate complaint. So when you start to realize that, you hear what the teacher supposedly did, and then you corroborate that the teacher did actually do that, and you start to see that the parent has a legitimate point. What's your thinking about what the teacher needs and what you need to do as the leader in that situation?

[16:03] SPEAKER_02:

Well, I think there's two things. One is, what do I say? How do I say it? How do I interact with the parent? Because there's no benefit in it getting worse, in becoming more volatile, in erupting. What can I do so we can resolve this situation, but what can we do so it doesn't happen again?

[16:22]

I'm a real big believer in when I write books about challenging people, I don't want to resolve a problem. I want to change their behavior because I don't want to have to keep dealing with this over and over and over. And I don't want them to have to keep dealing with it either. So, you know, when the teacher's wrong, what's amazing is your best teachers want to repair it. You know, your best teacher is going, I'm sorry, I said that I shouldn't. They've already made a casserole to take it over to their family's house on Sunday.

[16:47]

You know what I mean? They've done that. But I have to build that skill in other people. And one of the things that I mentioned, and it may be in both books, and I'm really not positive. I'm embarrassed to tell you that. But the best way to get in the last word is to apologize.

[17:01]

But I teach people to say things like, I'm sorry that happened versus I was wrong if they literally do not have the ability to say they were wrong or they weren't wrong. But you're still sorry it happened. I've never dealt with an angry parent that I wasn't sorry it happened. but that's different than my teacher was wrong. Does that make any sense? And I want to give everyone that language so they have the ability to say, I'm sorry that happened, and then realize you can shift to the future.

[17:28]

What can we do so this doesn't happen again? What can we do so this doesn't occur again? That type of thing. And also one other little thing, and I don't know if this will make any sense, and it's the kind of thing, in person it might be a little more powerful, but I always differentiate between people that are hard on an issue and people that are hard on a person. You know, Justin, I could say, I disagree with your decision. Let's pretend you're a teacher or principal.

[17:52]

It doesn't matter. And I'm a parent. I think that's fair. I disagree on that decision. I think that's fair. It isn't a matter of that I'm right, but I think that's a fair thing.

[18:02]

And I don't think it's fair to say you're an idiot. You see what I mean? I disagree with that decision and you're an idiot or very different. And I teach people how to separate those and then how to respond to the ones that are to both of them, because I think they both need different solutions.

[18:17] SPEAKER_00:

Very well said. Do you address conflict between parents where it's not necessarily that they're mad at the teacher, but you're dealing with something that's between families?

[18:25] SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. I mean, I think it can be between families. It can be between two students. It can be between two people that are neighbors. And one of the reasons it's really funny, I wrote a third edition and second edition for leadership. And I've done the same thing because I wrote a book for superintendents also related to boards and just that dynamic.

[18:45]

One of the other things that we have to deal with now, which we didn't used to have to deal with, and it changes this dynamic tremendously. is that typically the very worst parent you ever had to deal with, believe it or not, wasn't on their very worst behavior because their kid's coming back tomorrow. And you're thinking, this is the craziest thing I've ever seen. And you're right, but you haven't got to see the crazy at home or the crazy at work or, you know, whatever. Now, because of the internet, it isn't even anything that's affected them. It's something they heard on a podcast.

[19:20]

or that they saw on a TV station, or that they think there's kitty litter in classrooms. And I call them made-up problems with no solutions. And there can be people who don't even have children in the school, in the district, or even have children that come in and they have nothing to lose because their kid isn't coming back because they don't even have a kid who's in school. And I think that's a very different situation, but one that we didn't face very often. But you even have parents that come in and bring their neighbors. You know, I've had them come in before that brought in their minister and their minister was worse than them.

[19:56]

You know what I mean? And it's just understanding how do we separate that and how do we deal with that? Because I don't want you to feel like you're drowning in terms of situations like that. I think that's really important to me that I don't write books to sell books, believe it or not. I write books so people know what to do. That's it.

[20:13]

And that's why I try to do it.

[20:15] SPEAKER_00:

See, do you have any particular advice when somebody does bring in an additional party? Maybe it's, you know, maybe it's grandma, maybe it's a neighbor. I think some of the toughest people that I've dealt with were advocates, you know, people whose job was to advocate for the kid, but they seem to think their job was to be as mean as possible to everybody in the school. Any thoughts on dealing with kind of third parties who come along for the ride?

[20:39] SPEAKER_02:

I think obviously there's different ones because there can also be ones that are helpful, that speak English more clearly and help people that way, which is very different. But I tend to, when I have someone that is just there to be a nuisance, I tend to have the conference or the conversation, I just deal with just the parent. So when this person brings something up, I turn to the parent and I go, what do you think about that? Because I want to know what they think about it. You see what I mean? Is it somebody with no kid that's just whacked?

[21:12]

Or are they just representing the parent's views, but they've already talked to the parent and that's what they feel? You see, that's different than literally the parent's going, I don't even know what they're talking about. But if I just continue to respond to the third party, then I feel like I haven't even solved the parent's problem. And the third party potentially has less...

[21:32]

inhibitions, if that's the right word, than the parent, because they really have nothing. There's no skin in the game for them whatsoever. But I'll say, so what do you think about that? How do you think about that? How would you handle that? Would you agree with that?

[21:44]

Do you feel like this is the, because if it is, do you see, I need to sort that out. I'm not even trying to put them on the spot. I'm really trying to sort out, what are you thinking? And that's a way to do it. The other thing is, if you've read any of my books or even like Shifting the Monkey, stuff like where you sit, who you sit next to, things like that are really, really essential in a conversation, in my opinion, more so with challenging people than normal people. You know, I mean, it is.

[22:11]

And understand this, never keep a desk or a table between yourself and a belligerent person because it empowers them. always sit next to them. I call it the sidle up and I thought of this before Jerry Seinfeld did, so just keep that in mind. The sidle up because if you think about monkeys, we have them on our shoulders and if I'm sitting right next to you, look how easy it is for the monkey on me to get on you. But if there's a desk between us, the monkey can't reach it. The monkey can't reach you.

[22:37]

It's too far away. And Negative people want a line in the sand. Their dream is a line in the sand. And when you're across from them, that actually empowers them. When you're next to them, that actually makes them less comfortable. So in any situation, I always sit next to whoever I think is worse.

[22:56]

So if they bring someone in, I sit next to whoever I think is worse because that'll make that worse person. And I'm always nice and friendly. The friendlier, kinder, and nicer you are, the more discomfort it brings to them.

[23:06] SPEAKER_00:

Now, I wonder if we could get very specific about this. Let's say we're talking in the principal's office. Now, I'm calling my office. I had probably an overly large desk, an overly large file cabinet that would have killed me if I had opened two drawers at once. I had a conference table that was probably slightly too big for the room, and I had probably too many chairs. Should I have gotten rid of the conference table, or how do we physically set ourselves up to have these conversations where we can sit side by side?

[23:31] SPEAKER_02:

My favorite thing, if I can, is that, let's pretend, you know, most people have a desk, and that's okay, and it doesn't matter if you normally sit behind it when no one's around. None of that matters. I'm not judging that. One of my favorite things is, let's say I have a chair behind a desk, a traditional way, and I have two chairs on the other side. So when the parent comes in, I immediately, the best parent, an average parent, a parent I don't know, a parent I know a lot, the parent that I think is the most confrontational, no matter who it is, I treat everybody as if they were good because good people like it when you sit next to them and bad people don't. So I treat everyone as if they were good.

[24:05]

So I sit by everyone because good people like it and bad people don't. So no matter what, and they don't know, and I like being behind the desk when they come in because then they're not ready for me when I walk around and sit right next to them. And the same way, if I have a parent acting a fool in a basketball game, the first thing I do is I go sit right next to them. And I treat them as if they were good. And you'd be amazed how that takes care of 90% of the problems. But it doesn't take care of 100%.

[24:32]

But if I just stand down here, there's no such thing as leadership osmosis. I can't just stand down here and stare at the parent and think that's going to fix them and make them want to apologize and turn in their season tickets. But when I go and sit next to them, look who becomes comfortable. The normal people who were uncomfortable with this parent acting like a fool. Because now I'm there and it takes the pressure off of them. It shifts the discomfort from the normal people to me.

[24:57]

And it also shifts some of the discomfort from me to the parent who's acting the fool. but they'd love a line in the sand. Think of any age kids if kids want to fight. I'm thinking of boys, but it could be girls too, and they want to fight. Very seldom do you have a boy walk up or a student walk up and just punch the other student with no provocation. Almost always, Justin, you come up and you go, why did you say that?

[25:24]

Why did you say that about my girlfriend? And you push me or whatever. And you're always chest to chest. You're always face to face in terms of that. And I go, what do you mean? And I push you.

[25:32]

And then what do you mean? You see what I mean? And when you don't have that, it's harder for you to generate your own money and your own anger. And we're in a double down world right now. When attack dogs, they still want resistance to attack. That makes them feel stronger.

[25:50]

And they never get resistance from me. If I suspend their kid, I go, I am so sorry about this. I am so sorry. He's out of school for 10 days. What can we do so that when he comes back, we can get him in so he can be successful here at school? I am so sorry.

[26:07]

As a basketball coach, I never yelled. And I have a school record for wins because I don't need to yell because I'm the basketball coach. See, I'm the principal. I'm the teacher. I don't need to yell. And that's their niche.

[26:18]

They love that. Believe me, the most unusual people you have come in and their dream is to have a WWE wrestling event in your office. And they're never going to get one from me no matter how they act. They're never going to do it. That doesn't mean after they leave, I don't think what an idiot, but I'm never going to do that while they're there. And it's teaching teachers that.

[26:41]

And what happens is sometimes we have people, they student taught with someone average, so they act wrong. They grew up in a home where there wasn't correct interaction and they're currently a teacher and they interact wrong. And I have to teach them how to do it right. They want to be good. I mean, people want to be good. It's easier to teach people than you think because they want to be good.

[27:00]

The kids want to have friends. The kids want to be liked. The teachers want to have friends. The teachers want to be liked. Teaching's hard. If you're a master at classroom management, teaching's hard.

[27:14]

If you're ineffective at classroom management, teaching is overwhelming. They want to be good. And it's just teaching people that they want to be good. We assume, the first thing I always say you have to sort out is are people ignorant or insubordinate? And we almost always think they're insubordinate. They're almost always ignorant.

[27:29]

The fan acting the fool up in the stands many times doesn't even know they're acting that way. They don't even know it's wrong. This is the household they grew up in. This is what their uncle, dad, brother, sister, mom, whatever did to them. And I have to teach them a different way that will lead to better successes or I can't allow them to be in the gym.

[27:48] SPEAKER_00:

Thank you so much for the work that you do, Dr. Whitaker, and for the many books you've written, the presentations you've given that have touched thousands and thousands of people. And thank you for your time today. So ToddWhitaker.com. The books are Dealing with Difficult Parents, Teacher Edition, and School Leader Edition.

[28:04]

Dr. Whitaker, thank you again for joining me on Principal Center Radio. It's been a pleasure.

[28:07] SPEAKER_02:

Thank you. Appreciate it. It's an honor for me.

[28:10] Announcer:

Thanks for listening to Principal Center Radio. For more great episodes, subscribe on our website at PrincipalCenter.com slash radio.