Leadership For Instructional Change

[00:01] Announcer:

Welcome to Principal Center Radio, helping you build capacity for instructional leadership. Here's your host, Director of the Principal Center, Dr. Justin Bader. Welcome everyone to Principal Center Radio.

[00:13] SPEAKER_01:

I'm your host, Justin Bader, and I'm honored to welcome back to the program for the third time, Dr. Amy Bader. Dr. Amy Bader is the Director of the Project-Based Learning Network. She holds an Ed.D.

[00:24]

in Educational Leadership from the University of Washington and an M.E.D. in Curriculum and Instruction from Seattle University and is a full-time curriculum writer and PBL trainer.

[00:36] Announcer:

And now, our feature presentation.

[00:39] SPEAKER_01:

Amy, welcome to Principal Center Radio. Thanks for having me. Well, I'm excited to talk today about what instructional leaders do to lead for instructional change. Because in the world of administration, often we spend a lot of time on things other than instruction, and we have initiatives come down the pike, but often we don't spend a lot of time thinking about what it actually takes on the ground to be an instructional leader for instructional change. And I know you are an expert in PBL and you have worked alongside many, many leaders who are implementing PBL. Amy, talk to us a little bit about the work that you've been doing over the past couple of years, working specifically with instructional leaders.

[01:21] SPEAKER_00:

Right. So in a lot of cases, I've gone directly and worked with teachers or have had instructional leaders hire me to work with teachers. But I found over time that the most successful sites had instructional leaders that were invested in and understood the kind of change that they were asking their teachers to do. So I have developed a project-based learning instructional leader program to help these leaders get ready to support teachers as they implement PBL. And I found that those that do are so much more successful than the ones that just ask their teachers to implement the change without really understanding the extent to which they're having teachers make some huge moves.

[02:05] SPEAKER_01:

One thing I thought was interesting as we went to just a variety of national conferences and you kind of walk around the vendor hall and you realize that a lot of people are there to shop. And I think the shopping paradigm, especially for senior leaders, for central office leaders, is one that in some ways is necessary. Senior leaders do have to shop for changes and figure out what's within our budget, what's the best opportunity for us. But I see instructional leadership for instructional change as something very different from shopping. And I feel like sometimes if we frame too much of our job as simply making the decision and providing the resources and then backing away, teachers don't necessarily get what they need from us. So what is it specifically that teachers need from their leaders to go through a complex change to their practice like PBL?

[02:56] SPEAKER_00:

I think teachers really need to see those instructional leaders rolling up their sleeves and sitting with them and working with them to see how that they're supporting them as they implement this work, that they're there, that they're present, that they're providing that time and support and really understand what it takes to make those shifts. Often leaders appear to teachers as someone who is pressing a button to make a change happen and then walking away, rather than someone who really understands what it takes to make those changes happen, both on the calendar, in the classrooms, and behind the scenes.

[03:30] SPEAKER_01:

Thinking back to when I first started as an elementary principal, and there had been some instructional changes that were in the works. I did not originate them. The wheels had been in motion for a while. And one of the things that I did was I attended some training for leaders as well as some training for teachers. But one hesitation that I had as a result of that training was just in the realization that I was not going to be the expert. I was never going to be the top expert in our school, in our district.

[03:59]

you know, involved in this project because I was not personally implementing. So I wanted to build my expertise. And I think you probably run across a lot of people who want to build their expertise with PBL, but they also feel like, you know, I'm never actually going to do this myself in a way that's completely authentic. What do you think about that issue? Because I feel like we want to lead by example, but we also feel like if I'm a principal, honestly, I'm not going to be teaching the curriculum. I'm not going to be working directly with students very much.

[04:28]

So how do I grapple with that as a leader?

[04:30] SPEAKER_00:

I think really figuring out which teacher leaders are going to rise to the top, but also understanding enough about it to not just say, we're doing PBL and then ending at that, to understand what that means, what that looks like, and to clarify what your expectations are. That's a really huge issue. And I see that in the sites that are most successful with PBL versus the ones that aren't. The leaders at least have a clear vision of what they want and what that looks like that's developed with their teacher leaders. And it's not just a, we're doing PBL and I'm ending it at that. It's really unpacking what you mean by that, what that looks like, what the expectations are, as well as what the support is.

[05:10]

And then finding your person who's going to be on the ground, finding a person who's going to be an expert, finding a person that's going to be supporting that all the way through that can be your right-hand person, so to speak, that will make sure that is going to be successful for you and understands the ins and outs of that implementation.

[05:27] SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I've been thinking a lot about empowering teacher leaders lately, and Keith and I are finishing up our book on teacher leadership and really stands out how much teacher leadership is out there and yet how often we don't really take advantage of it. So when you look at some of the sites that you've worked with, what does a teacher leader look like? Somebody who can be kind of activated and empowered to be on the front lines, but also play an important decision-making role and not just leave that for administrators?

[05:58] SPEAKER_00:

Right. So this person understands the realities of the classroom. They've been in the classroom. They're in the classroom. They are close to the work that teachers are dealing with. They're an advocate for their teacher colleagues.

[06:11]

They understand the day-to-day work, the strains, the obstacles, but they also have a vision for what it looks like to improve, to change, to move forward. They're happy to push back a little bit on their colleagues as well as kind of push back a little bit on administrators and be that person that can really advocate for their teachers as they make decisions alongside administrators.

[06:33] SPEAKER_01:

I wonder if we could talk a little bit about readiness, because I think we can all think of individual people like those teacher leaders who seem ready. And yet a lot of people would look at their organization overall and say, I'm not really sure we are completely ready. Are schools or districts ever completely ready? What does that look like for a district or a school to be ready at the organizational level?

[06:54] SPEAKER_00:

To implement project-based learning?

[06:56] SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely.

[06:57] SPEAKER_00:

I visited some project-based learning schools, and if I were to ask them if they were completely ready to implement PBL as a whole school right away from year one to year two, I'm sure they would probably say, no, this has been a slow and steady adoption of this PBL school. So I think that when we talk about readiness, It really depends on how large the organization is, the experience of the teachers, the understanding of project-based learning from the administrator's perspective, as well as the support that's available. And then there's the communication with the community about what this looks like and where we're headed. So I would say if we went to the average school district school building and we said, hey, tomorrow you're going to take on project-based learning, that readiness would not be there just because that's not a tomorrow change that can be made.

[07:52]

As far as readiness, we're looking at the will of those involved. We're looking at kind of the skill levels of those involved as far as the kind of instructional strategies that we're using, the capacity for learning. making curriculum changes, and just a lot of the other issues that the district or the school is dealing with already. I think that there are lots of questions we can ask to assess whether or not an organization is ready to adopt PBL, whether that means in a three to five year time span or next week. And I think the answer is never just next week.

[08:26] SPEAKER_01:

Thinking back to the middle school where I was a teacher and I'm thinking about just our overall organizational capacity and how that was always kind of strained. We always had too much going on. We always had a lot of stressors that we were dealing with. And I think we even had researchers who wanted to work with us because they wanted to support us. And in some cases, they would check things out and realize, you know what, they just don't have a lot of bandwidth as an organization to really pursue big change right now. But I can also think of colleagues that I had who absolutely were ready, who were doing new things all the time, who were innovating, who were really pushing themselves.

[09:00]

What does readiness look like at an individual level, even if the macro organization is not in a place to make a wholesale change?

[09:09] SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

[09:12]

There are definitely individuals that will be ready for project-based learning because it truly invigorates many educators as far as wanting to try something challenging, wanting to try something new, wanting to engage all of their students and connect them to real-world experiences. So I would say, you know, typically the person that's ready to try PBL has been in the classroom for a few years. They are someone who is curious, is driven. They're someone who has a little bit of time to make some curriculum changes. They're usually a little bit creative as far as wanting to pull things in from around their community or from things that they are curious about themselves. But I've seen all kinds of people that are ready for PBL, but typically they do need that bandwidth, like you said, as far as something that's not being done to them, but something that they are open to and something that they're ready to try because they want to really see a change in their instruction.

[10:10] SPEAKER_01:

I'm hearing themes of intrinsic motivation and choice that seem like they're also what we want for our students, but that need to be there for the teachers who go first as well. Let's talk a little bit about timing because as we've discussed, a lot of organizations are not ready for a wholesale change. They're not ready to move forward. in lockstep all at once, and certainly not tomorrow, but there are people who are ready to take some steps. And I think sometimes as instructional leaders, we don't like it when only some people change. We like everybody changing at once because it looks like we have our act together.

[10:43]

What do you see as some of the advantages of working with those early adopters and letting them take the steps that they're ready for, even if everybody else is not ready yet?

[10:52] SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I think that there can be some traction that can be built, some curiosity, some interest that will be expressed then by some of their other colleagues. I think one thing you have to be a little bit careful of is feeling like you've really chosen the right people so that you're not demonstrating exclusion or initiating any jealousy that might happen. So I think making sure you've got your crew together who's ready, but also identifying those people really well sensitively so that you have gathered those folks and you're working with them and that you're building traction, but you're not building any sense of exclusion of others that might have been ready and that weren't asked.

[11:33] SPEAKER_01:

So Are you saying build in a little bit of option for people, even if you don't think they're the ones who should go first, like take volunteers?

[11:42] SPEAKER_00:

Invite folks. They'll quickly find out where their readiness is. And I think that that will help you as you get a pilot group together, figure out what works, what doesn't work, figure out what kind of support is necessary, and then moving from there. And once people see that you're moving and shaking, they'll want to be part of what's going on.

[12:02] SPEAKER_01:

Let's talk about pilot groups a little bit because sometimes people mean a pilot as kind of the beachhead, kind of the first wave to really start strong. And sometimes people mean pilot in the sense of, I'm not really committed to this, so let me minimize my investment. Talk to us about some of the pros and cons and what you've seen with pilots and even that thinking around piloting.

[12:26] SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I think we have generally used this as a way to get a small group going so that you can work out any issues that might be there. So you can figure out really what kind of support is necessary to figure out the time that it takes. Because often I think leaders aren't quite clear on what kind of support PBL educators are going to need. And instead of investing, you know, a whole lot to have everyone go through right away and then figuring out that we have some large scale support issues that are needed. It's a little bit lighter and easier to get a pilot group going, figure out what's necessary, hear from them, build in that support, and then take on another round of teachers that are ready to go And this can be for a variety of reasons. It could be that you have folks that are brand new teachers and they really don't have the time to be part of a huge change right away.

[13:22]

And so they might be ready for that second wave when it comes. There are also teachers that are just a little wary of change because they've been through it. Year after year, new initiatives come their way and they just want to see that you are invested in this and that you are going to support it and it's not just going to go away. So they are waiting to see that you are committed and that you will support it and they might be part of that second or third wave that goes through. So there are lots of reasons why it's just beneficial to have a pilot group and then maybe add people along the way in some situations.

[13:55] SPEAKER_01:

It's really good. It makes me think that a pilot in a first wave kind of give teachers who might be in that second wave, the confidence that you're actually going to follow through as a leader, because I think every educator, every single educator has seen initiatives come and go and seen leaders you know, get on their bully pulpit and say, this is going to be the big thing. This new thing is going to be the big thing. And then they do that over and over again. And the big thing doesn't get the time that it needs to actually succeed. And I feel like we have an issue as instructional leaders with timing where our work, especially around decision-making and budgeting and writing the check is largely front-loaded, right?

[14:37]

We do a lot of the work on the front end. And then when we hand things over to teachers, we think, okay, my part in that is done. Now let me find something else to start working on. And teachers are not ready to move on to something else. Where are teachers when the check has been written, the baton has been handed over from the leader's perspective? What's going on for them at that point?

[14:56] SPEAKER_00:

They're in the thick of it and they're looking to that leader to understand what they're going through and to understand that they need support. They still need them there. And I think in general, teachers are going to respect a leader a lot more if that leader understands what they're asking the teachers to do. And they understand the level of change that's being involved. If they see that you're committed and not just pushing that button and saying go, that you're committed and you're in the midst of it and you have a plan for how you're going to support them. You're there.

[15:25]

You're checking on them. You're making sure that they're doing what they said they're going to do and you're doing what you said you're going to do. They're going to respect you a whole lot more and follow through because of that support and that understanding.

[15:37] SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. I think it's interesting the way the role of the leader changes as an initiative unfolds. And as you move from those pilot teachers, the people who are raring to go, they're more capable, they're more willing, they're more motivated. As you get into the later waves of the people who said, not yet, don't bring me on in this pilot or in this first wave. Really, the work that you do with that later group is very different as a leader. And as you've worked with sites over a number of years, what have you seen in how the leadership work shifts for those later waves?

[16:11]

What do teachers who don't go first need in order to eventually get on board and make the change that they need to make?

[16:17] SPEAKER_00:

I would say for all people involved in this shift to PBL or any instructional change really is leaders play a huge role in reassurance. People are afraid they're going to do something wrong. I would say another second or third wave teacher that goes through are those that are actually feeling pretty good about what they're doing in the classroom. They're comfortable. And they're afraid that if they step out of that comfort zone, that they're going to fail or show cracks in their teacher practice. And they need reassurance from those leaders that that's okay and that they are trying something new and that they are not going to be evaluated out or anything along those lines, that they are going to be supported in this shift.

[16:58]

So I would say that that's true for just about anyone is that they do a lot of fear management. And yeah, that tends to be the role of leaders. Now, I think one trap that leaders fall into is that they feel like they always need to be moving. And what they think of as moving or acting is not the same as what the teachers are going to need in these phases of implementation. So I think what will be really helpful as leaders is as they develop this implementation plan of PBL, they need to see that they're doing something that And that doing something isn't necessarily finding a new initiative to start or anything like that. It's going to be figuring out what does it look like when I'm supporting teachers who are doing PBL and actually listing those actions out because that will help them see that they are actually doing something.

[17:47]

And we don't have to jump to the next big thing. It's I have to outline what I'm going to be doing. And that's true for teachers who are working with students that are doing PBL because your role changes as someone who's instructing in PBL. Your role shifts a little bit, and it may feel like you don't have much to do right away when you're actually doing the unit, but you are. You're an active facilitator. You are teaching.

[18:11]

You are supporting. You are connecting students. So the same is true for leaders as well.

[18:17] SPEAKER_01:

That's a really good point about leaders needing to feel active. And I think our default, like the comforting, easy way to feel active is to do the annual shopping trip. I'm going to go to the conference. I'm going to find out what's new and I'm going to buy it. And then I'm going to bring it back and present it to everybody. And I think we get in this perpetual cycle of the people who are good at change in their own classroom.

[18:37]

get on board right away, they implement it and the leaders think, okay, now we're ready to move on to the next thing. But that's not where the rest of the staff is. The rest of the staff needs more time. And I wonder if you have thoughts on the school year as our kind of default unit. Like we can start a new thing every single school year. From your perspective, you've been at this quite a while and have worked with many of your sites for multiple years now.

[19:00]

How many school years does it change to really, does it take to really succeed with PBL from the very beginning?

[19:07] SPEAKER_00:

I think a lot of these answers are, it depends. But I would say to expect teachers to attend a summer training and then be super shiny PBL stars right at the beginning of the semester is not realistic. I would say that if you are learning about project-based learning and designing a PBL unit, you can... definitely implement in the fall, but you need to be supporting that as a school leader, and they will need another try to really build that PBL instructional capacity throughout the year, especially if you're just piloting in the fall with a smaller group and then building over time.

[19:46]

So this really needs to look like a multi-year investment and rollout of PBL instructional strategies, of Teaching, implementing, coming back, trying more, you know, building on that, pulling in new folks. So I would say that this is when you're in it for the long haul. This is something that you want to see as a multi-year plan and a way to support teachers as you do that.

[20:11] SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And our calendar is not always conducive to that because we might have, you know, a day or two to devote to training right before school starts. But there are some elements of success with PBL that take longer than just a day or two. And you mentioned writing curriculum. Then there are also, you know, talk to us a little bit about the piece that need to be in place, the teacher skill, the understanding, the curriculum. What are the pieces that take time to build?

[20:36] SPEAKER_00:

Right. So if your teachers already have a lot of the instructional strategies that are conducive to project based learning, the lift will be less. But if you're working with maybe new teachers or maybe teachers that have gone through alternative certification, they're still building those tools and strategies. It will take some time to help them see the possibilities for what instruction can look like. Also, there's a little bit of a difference, actually, a big difference between designing project-based learning instructional materials and implementing instructional materials. And those can be different as well.

[21:09]

So supporting people in implementing PBL units that are already designed or adapting them to their context is different from designing those materials from scratch. And that can be tricky if you're navigating that with teachers that are new as well.

[21:27] SPEAKER_01:

It seems like there are also differences in subject areas. Talk to us a little bit about how things might need to be kind of differentiated for different departments.

[21:37] SPEAKER_00:

Right. So there are some classes that are naturally better fits for what project-based learning instruction looks like just because you have a built-in audience. Let's say a theater classroom or a yearbook classroom. Those are kind of like project-based learning courses already because you're going through that process of having a lot of student voice and choice and an authentic audience and an authentic product. And then there are other classes that are less naturally fit for a PBL unit. Maybe that's a world language class, for example, where, you know, you're learning a lot of vocabulary, you know, Spanish one, you might have to really think about how you might make it fit for a PBL structured course.

[22:19]

But when you do, students are going to remember the course, remember the material a lot more readily than if it's just, you know, Let's look at the book. Let's listen to this audio passage and let's practice with each other. So how do you connect that to the real world and real world experiences?

[22:33] SPEAKER_01:

So we've talked about some of the timeframes and how as leaders, we have to be willing to continue to provide support and not go shopping in the middle of one initiative to begin a new initiative. We've talked about how leaders need to continue to be on the front lines and work alongside teachers and provide support so that they can reach the point where they're successful and they're seeing the results that they want to. Thinking about some of the people who've been through your project-based learning instructional leader program, what have you seen that has been successful for them? What have been some of the common keys to success?

[23:07] SPEAKER_00:

I would say there had some fabulous PBLIL participants. And some of the ones that I've seen that have gone through that have been successful, they go through with someone else. So maybe it's a principal, an assistant principal, or an assistant principal and a teacher leader who's going to be in charge of this on the ground level. Also, these folks...

[23:26]

they've really figured out the specifics. And that's because the course asks them to. So I could just give a prescriptive, here's what you all need to do for project-based learning instructional leadership at your site, and everyone go do it. But that would not necessarily work. So what I ask folks to do, I have them think about, who's on your team? Who are you going to have pilot?

[23:47]

What kind of support are you going to provide them? Get out your calendars. Let's fill that in and figure out when you're going to actually provide them with the support that they need. So it's very contextualized to their site. It's very specific. And I have them really wrestle with the fact that if you're asking people to make a change, then that needs to be reflected in your budget and in your calendar and in your personal support of that work.

[24:11]

It can't happen magically. You have to provide that support and you have to be specific and clear about what it looks like to be successful.

[24:18] SPEAKER_01:

Very well said. So if people want to learn more about the PBL Instructional Leader program or get in touch with you, where's the best place for them to go?

[24:27] SPEAKER_00:

You can check it out at amybader.com forward slash leader to learn more about the PBLAL program. You can also find me at amybader.com forward slash call and we can schedule a quick meeting just to talk about what makes sense for your site and if there's some support that I can provide you as you work toward instructional change in your building.

[24:49] SPEAKER_01:

Dr. Amy Bader, thank you so much for joining me on Principal Center Radio. It's been a pleasure.

[24:52] SPEAKER_00:

Thanks for having me.

[24:54] Announcer:

Thanks for listening to Principal Center Radio. For more great episodes, subscribe on our website at principalcenter.com slash radio.