Love In A Big World

[00:01] SPEAKER_01:

Welcome to Principal Center Radio, bringing you the best in professional practice.

[00:06] Announcer:

Here's your host, director of the Principal Center and champion of high-performance instructional leadership, Justin Bader. Welcome, everyone, to Principal Center Radio.

[00:15] SPEAKER_02:

I'm your host, Justin Bader, and I'm honored to welcome back to the show Tamara Fyke. Tamara is an author, speaker, and expert on social and emotional learning, and she's the creator of the Love in a Big World curriculum. She's also the editor-in-chief and a contributor to the new book, Building People, Social Emotional Learning for Kids, Families, Schools, and Communities, which we're here to talk about today.

[00:39] Announcer:

And now, our feature presentation.

[00:41] SPEAKER_02:

So Tamara, welcome back to Principal Center Radio. Thank you, Justin. It's good to be back. Let's talk about the book, which is pretty interesting in that it is a book that many well-known authors have contributed to. I see Rod Berger and Peter DeWitt and Baruti Kefele, Sean Slade, Kathy Wade, yourself, obviously. Talk to us a little bit about how this book on social and emotional learning came together, because we're hearing a lot today.

[01:07]

these days about social and emotional learning. But I think your book is one of the first to really pull some big ideas together and pull some of the leading voices together. So talk to us about how that happened.

[01:19] SPEAKER_00:

Well, we knew that getting into this field of SEL at this time, we really needed to gather a team of voices to speak to the issues at hand. And as you've mentioned, SEL is a big topic. It's also a very hot topic in education as well as in society right now. given our political climate. So we recognized that we needed to have a variety of different people speaking from their areas of expertise about how you do social and emotional learning within an organization.

[01:50] SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, absolutely. I wonder if we could start with just kind of a definition because, you know, like anything that blows up pretty quickly, SEL can start to mean 10 different things to 10 different people. So as kind of a foundational definition or just kind of a working definition for our purposes today, how do you use that term social and emotional learning?

[02:09] SPEAKER_00:

I use social and emotional learning as we're helping kids identify what's going on in their heads and in their hearts so they can use their hands to build up and not tear down. That's the working definition that I use for all the work that I do. I would say, as you've mentioned, there's larger definitions of social and emotional learning and I talked to Phil about what are your SEL initiatives, because I've been on this interview tour for the last several months as part of the National Science Foundation Innovation Corps program. So I've had the privilege of speaking to educators all around the country. and asking them, what are your SEL initiatives? And people answer in a variety of ways because of just what you said.

[02:52]

There's not a common working definition of SEL. And so under that large umbrella falls everything from bullying prevention to violence prevention, absence prevention, how you improve attendance. I mean, it's mental health. It's very broad. But I think what we all can agree on is that our focus is on the whole child. And how can we help the whole child be successful in all areas of their life, including academics?

[03:18] SPEAKER_02:

And, you know, we know that in order for students to be successful in school academically, that, you know, the way that they interact with one another, the way they feel, you know, as people being in a, you know, in an environment surrounded by other people, we know that Those social interactions, those, you know, affective aspects of just being a person around other people make a big difference for their learning, for their well-being, for everything really. But getting a handle on what some of the, you know, the key things that we can do as educators. You know, obviously students come to school with a variety of challenges. Students face a variety of challenges once they're in school. What are some of kind of the big rocks that schools are paying attention to and starting to see benefits from? as far as their efforts to set students up for success.

[04:06] SPEAKER_00:

That's a big question, so I'll try to break it down into a variety of different components. I'm hearing more, and this is what we address in the book, about culture and climate, and culture being what you do and climate being how it feels, and making sure that we are instituting practices in our what, the culture, that cultivate a place of caring. So that when kids come to school, they feel like they're part of a family. They feel like it's their second home. And some of the educators that I've been talking to recently, they're acknowledging the fact that they are really bridging the gap. with what families may or may not be able to do at home.

[04:52]

And so they're instituting practices like a food pantry, a clothing store, laundry facilities, I mean, all sorts of things in order to close that gap. And again, that goes to how we can address the needs of the whole child.

[05:05] SPEAKER_02:

So you said culture is what you do and climate is how it feels.

[05:10] SPEAKER_00:

Yes, yes.

[05:12] SPEAKER_02:

And I think it's important to have that distinction because as educators, often we find that we're not super happy with how students are feeling. Like if we hear that a student is not having a positive experience of school, we know that to one extent, we can't make individual people happy, but we can make choices about what to do in our environment, what actions we take to set students up for success. So I love that distinction between culture and climate, what we do. and how it feels. And I love some of the key points that you mentioned around food and access to laundry facilities, be able to wash your clothes. And that strikes me as one of those foundational Maslow's hierarchy of needs kinds of things.

[05:55]

Is Maslow's hierarchy embedded in this?

[05:58] SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely. Absolutely. It's that at the very bottom of the pyramid, we're talking about a sense of belonging and safety. When kids know that they're secure, when they know that there are adults who care for them and are willing to offer them guidance along their life's journey, then they are able to perform better. And so I think in a lot of ways over the last few years, we've gotten that pyramid flipped upside down and we're expecting kids to perform when they are not feeling safe. And so we need to turn that pyramid right side up and give the kids this support and security that they need so they can be successful.

[06:32] SPEAKER_02:

Very well said. And I think when it comes to those physical needs, you know, I think historically as a profession, we've felt like it's the parent's fault. I mean, obviously, it is parents' responsibility to feed their kids at home, to do the laundry, you know, so that There's definitely a reasonable sense of expectation there that we have on the part of parents. But when the kid comes to school, I think that's the point where we have to say, okay, I would like this kid to have come to school with clean clothes. This kid would have preferred to come to school with clean clothes and a good dinner last night and a good breakfast this morning. But the reality is this kid is here.

[07:08]

And if this kid had to pull something out of, you know, a sibling's dirty clothes pile in order to have something to wear to school today, and you know, and that's what they're showing up with, we've got to meet that kid where they are. And the parents part in that, you know, we kind of have to deal with that. uh separately and and look at the kid as you know a person who is here to learn and who if we're willing to do some maybe things that are unusual to us you know like maybe it is a foreign concept for us to have a washer and dryer that kids can use or a change of clothes but what a simple change that can be you know like a washer and dryer in the grand scheme of things are cheap they're not that expensive when it comes to a kid's learning, a kid's well-being. And I love that sense of maybe responsibility is not the right word, but opportunity for educators to say, you know what, I don't really feel like I went to school to train to do laundry, but I feel like there's an opportunity here to help this kid and to make a difference for this kid.

[08:06] SPEAKER_00:

Right, right. And I would just say, too, that the demands on parents are much different post the recession in 2008. So, you know, the parents might be working two or three jobs just to make ends meet. And they want to provide the best for their kids, but they may not be able to because they're out trying to make a living so they can keep a roof over their heads. So I think that's where, you know, back in the old days, if you ever watched Little House on the Prairie or I'm binge watching When Calls the Heart, which is another frontier type of story, the community really pooled together when there was a need. And I think in our society today, we are so different.

[08:46]

spirit because of transportation, you know, and, and going away, like in our city, Metro Nashville, we have kids from all over the city who'll come to one school. And so it's not that community or neighborhood feel. And so you may not know the needs of the family next door and be able to help like they did way back in the day with a barn raising or bringing meals, you know, it's just, it's a different culture in our larger society. And so I think that the kids are feeling the effects of that. And so it's, I think we have to be careful as educators to make sure that we are acting as a team with the parents instead of blaming parents. Because I know that can be a big conversation among us as educators is like, why aren't these parents doing X, Y, Z?

[09:32]

Well, maybe they're doing the best they can and they just need a little extra help right now. And so I think that's where the school, as a place that's consistent in a kid's life, it's like their second home. We can fill in the gaps and be that support and hopefully be an additional support to mom and dad too.

[09:49] SPEAKER_02:

Absolutely. And if we're not, sometimes we'll see that we're not able to retain those families and they change schools. There's a disruption for the student's educational experience. So that investment in whatever it is that that student needs at that time goes a long way. And I think that continues. to apply as you go up Maslow's hierarchy into some of the more social and psychological needs.

[10:10]

What are some of those higher level needs that you identify and that the other authors identify in the book that schools can take an interest in and again, not necessarily take full responsibility for in the sense that we can't control them, but there are things we can do. There are actions we can take to meet some of those higher level needs that really are essential for learning. So let's talk a little higher on Maslow's

[10:31] SPEAKER_00:

Well, Richard Gerber contributes a chapter in the book about helping turn kids' dreams into aspirations. And if you look at the bigger picture of what a kid wants to achieve in life and then help them break it down into manageable steps and say, okay, so you want to be a lawyer. Do you know what it takes? Let's back it up from law school on down to education. middle school this is what you need to achieve now in order to make it there or if you're an athlete these are the steps that you need to take to get there and so that really gives kids a real life context for what they want to achieve and so instead of just looking at television or movies and going oh that's what i want they can really break it down into okay I can make that dream a reality with a lot of hard work.

[11:22]

And these are the steps. And also for us as adults to be able to come around them, to encourage them and provide real world support that they need in order to make their dreams a reality.

[11:33] SPEAKER_02:

And I love that that's a vision that goes beyond school. So school is not just a thing to kind of wait out or to survive and graduate from. But school, you know, if we position it to students as a vehicle for achieving their dreams, that makes a huge difference.

[11:48] SPEAKER_00:

Yes, absolutely. And I would say too, the research base for this from Dr. Elias and Dr. Espelage show that that's what we want to build. We want to build long-term success and we want to provide the soft skills training for kids need school is a place for them to practice so that when they get into the workplace they can be successful and provide for their families and you know and achieve those dreams so we want to give them kind of a microcosm a safe place where they and that's again where I'm always advocating for growth not perfection when it comes to kids and even how that impacts our discipline policies. So we need to, as educators and as students, we need to keep that long-range vision and help keep everyone moving toward that.

[12:39] SPEAKER_02:

I want to ask about one of the tensions around that very issue, this idea that we are preparing kids for their next steps in life, whether those are college, career, education, various different options that students have after school. There's a belief, I think, among some educators that the best way to prepare kids for life after high school is tough love now and experiencing consequences now and learning from the school of... the school of high school rather than the school of hard knocks because we know ultimately those hard knocks do come. But I think there's a very real tension and debate among educators and in the minds of individual educators about how much we allow students to fully experience the consequences of their choices versus helping kind of insulate them to protect them from too many of those consequences.

[13:31]

in an environment that, you know, that we kind of control. So obviously that comes in in terms of discipline policy, in terms of grading policy. What are some of your thoughts on that tension? Because I know it's one we all grapple with of, you know, how much do we prepare students for the real world versus give them some safety from its harshness in the meantime?

[13:49] SPEAKER_00:

That's a good question. And that's part of what we address within the book as well from a number of different angles. Failure is not bad. And giving kids a safe place to fail can actually be one of the greatest growth opportunities for them. So I'm a big fan of Brene Brown's work. If you've read any of her writing, especially The Gift of Imperfection, she talks about how We're in many ways as a society, we've been coddling kids by giving everybody the trophy for participating on the soccer team instead of for victory.

[14:23]

And I love that because when my kids were growing up, I thought the same thing. So they need to learn from their failures, whether that's behavioral or academic or even sports, because it's building that resiliency in them. It's okay, I messed up. Now I've got to pick myself up and try again. I think as educators and as caring adults in their lives, the best thing that we can do is let them know that every day is a new start and not hold that against them. I was with a group of educators last week and we were talking about this during a professional development that I was leading for them.

[14:58]

And they were saying, yeah, we think that, you know, we think every day is a new start, but do we really live that? Or are we holding this record against the kid that we knew got in trouble and for that whole last semester. So I think that's where it's kind of a mix when you're creating these two scenarios that yes, they need to experience the real world consequences for their actions. However, we want them to experience those consequences with the understanding that this is how it affects your life. And so that's where critical conversations come to play. And we as adults have to take the time to talk through what's happening.

[15:36] SPEAKER_02:

And there are issues to balance there when it comes to, say, discipline. You know, I think we can understand the idea of, you know, forgiving a student who maybe was rude to you the day before and, you know, moving on from there and kind of restoring that relationship. But at the same time, there are sometimes very real safety issues. Like I was speaking with someone the other day who said, I'm seeing teachers get assaulted by students and then they get sent to the office, they get a chance to, quote unquote, cool down, and then they're sent back to the classroom. And the teacher saying, this kid just shoved me. Like, that's not exactly what we're talking about here, is it?

[16:13]

You know, that sense of safety, you know, being there to support kids is not the same as coddling. And I'm glad you brought up that word. So what are some of the distinctions that you're seeing schools make productively in schools? how they handle those very tough things. You know, when students have challenging behaviors, when students have inappropriate behaviors, you know, we don't want to just write those students off, but at the same time, our own safety, the safety of other students, the psychological safety for both staff and students, you know, those things matter too. So how are you seeing schools manage some of those tensions effectively?

[16:44] SPEAKER_00:

I think it's a big question. And this reminds me of the work that I did when I was at Vanderbilt for the Center of Safe and Supportive Schools. And we would continually have this conversation as a staff professors and staff and graduate students about school safety because the punitive approach of just saying no you did something wrong get out and suspending or expelling a student that wasn't working because in some ways they're getting exactly what they want they're getting away from school and learning but then what you're saying taking too soft of an approach and just saying okay you've gone to the principal's office now you're back in the class I That's not working either, especially for the sake of the whole school community. So when I'm talking with schools, I'm saying, you know, this is a complex issue and you have to look again back to what we're saying at the beginning at the culture, the larger culture of the school.

[17:35]

So is your mission and vision in place? What are your values of the school community? How does that impact your discipline policies? Is everyone on board? And when I'm talking with schools, I'm always saying you can't really make effective change. It's my strong belief.

[17:51]

Others may disagree with me, but you can't really make effective change to your discipline policies until you have a solid foundation for social and emotional learning. And there's a vocabulary and a set of expectations for what it is you want from students' behavior and also from staff behavior, because everybody in the school community has to be on board, all the stakeholders. And this is something that we address in the book too, and Kyla Kringle talks about this as well as some others. That when you are looking at social emotional learning, you're talking about office staff, bus drivers, cafeteria workers, administrators, teachers, parents, students, it's everyone. And so it's really important for us to create a common language that everybody can gather around. so that those expectations are very clear.

[18:41] SPEAKER_02:

I'm so glad you mentioned all other staff because it's easy to think of this as something that maybe the counselors own or the school leadership team owns, and it's easy to leave out all of those other people who might actually be the majority of people that students encounter on a daily basis. If you add up the bus driver, the custodian, the office staff, that's a lot of people who send messages to kids on any given day. It's not just teachers.

[19:06] SPEAKER_00:

No, and it's a mindset. And that's why this has to be about the culture of the school and establishing that positive culture will impact the climate. how it feels for kids and staff, and then that will impact behavior.

[19:21] SPEAKER_02:

Absolutely. In the book, you use the idea or the word intentionality. And I think that's so critical that people are not going to figure this out on their own and all come to the same conclusions independently. We have to actually get on the same page as a school. What do we do when a student walks past who was disrespectful yesterday? You know, what do we do when a student comes back from suspension?

[19:43]

What do we do when a student reports that someone else was mean to them in some particular way? Those are big discussions that we have to get on the same page about if we are going to give students that consistent experience and create the kind of climate that we want to create.

[19:57] SPEAKER_00:

And I would say it's important. I'm glad you mentioned the student's point of view because Tara Subramaniam talks a lot about that in her chapter, that student voice piece is so important. So we as adults might have one vision of what's happening in our building, but it might be very different from the student experience. And so it's critical that we hear from them too. And so your example of what do we do when a student comes to us and says that something was active, you know, some sort of, action was against them. Do we take it seriously?

[20:29]

Do we ignore them? How far do we investigate? How do we help kids restore their own relationships with one another? I mean, those are all things that we have to consider as school leaders.

[20:39] SPEAKER_02:

Absolutely. And, you know, there's nuance there and there are, you know, policies that we need to be careful about as well. You know, like if a student comes to us and says, you know, so-and-so is bullying me, X, Y, Z has happened. I've heard of cases where students who are being bullied are sent to peer mediation. And I'm thinking bullying versus situations that are appropriate to handle with peer mediation, those are very different. And we've got to be clear that this is not simply a relaxing of all, you know, standards and coddling kids and being okay with whatever.

[21:11]

This is about figuring out what kids really need us to do as adults and what systems we need to put in place as adults to meet their needs.

[21:19] SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned the word bullying, Justin, because I've been thinking a lot about this lately, and I read an article recently that talked about this too. I'm kind of getting to the point where I'm over that term, honestly, and I'm saying that hesitantly because I know this might be controversial, but I feel like we're almost at the point of overuse for the term bullying, and that if we're not careful, we could go too far and create a generation of victims. And I think it's really important that, yes, I know bullying has happened. It's happened to my kids. I'm a mom of three. But I think it's really important that we not only say, okay, address the behavior that offended you, but we say, okay, so here are some tools that you can use to in a situation if that occurs again.

[22:11]

So how can we prepare kids? So my older kids and I were watching an 80s movie last night for a little bit. And I sat there in shock at the kinds of things that I watched when I was a kid. And I'm going, there's bullying all over this movie. But back then it was just accepted for one reason or another. And I don't know, I haven't done enough deep thinking on this to really come to a conclusion.

[22:34]

I don't know if it was just that we could watch it on TV and it was kind of acceptable or if it was really that prevalent. in society but people just didn't make a fuss over it you know that kind of unkindness needs to stop I mean that's why I do love in a big world right but at the same time we have to give kids the tools that they need so they can be resilient yes somebody hurt you yes somebody said something mean about you now here's what you do about it here's how you work through it here's how you process here's how you don't just go off into a corner and hide but you can come back and engage. This is how you can stand up for yourself in a healthy way. Those are the kinds of things that I'm talking about. And I think it's the emphasis on building kids instead of bullying that we need to look at real seriously.

[23:22] SPEAKER_02:

And I think it's important to recognize that we have opportunities on both sides. You know, we have opportunities to address the behavior on the part of the quote unquote bullies. And, you know, certainly if you're punching someone and stealing their lunch money, you know, we... Something's going on.

[23:37]

We don't just need to teach resilience skills to the person you're stealing from. We need to deal with both. But getting past just that label of bullying and getting into, okay, what's really going on here and what needs to change for this kid to thrive?

[23:49] SPEAKER_00:

Exactly. And that's what the teachers and I were talking about last week, asking that question. I wonder what's going on with this kid and then digging a little deeper into their story to find out, okay, what kind of trauma, how many ACEs, you know, like asking those types of questions, which I'm really excited that not that those things are happening in our world, but that we're willing to have the conversation about these tough things now. And that's really at the heart of what SEL is all about.

[24:16] SPEAKER_02:

Absolutely. I wonder if we could talk just a little bit further about how we think about consequences and how we think about boundaries for students who we know are dealing with a lot. They've been through a lot. Maybe they have a parent who's in jail or they're just dealing with a lot in their lives. But sometimes that means they lash out in very destructive ways toward other students or toward other adults. And I think we all recognize the silliness of things like suspending kids for being tardy.

[24:43]

we hear about from time to time it's like well really what's our goal here we want the kid to be but on the other hand we have these more extreme situations where you know if a kid punches another kid I'm not sure I want to just cool off and go back to class I you know I feel like there's a safety aspect that we have to think about at the same time we think about the students underlying so you know like I want to ask why did this kid punch another kid and what can we do to help them and support them but how do we manage that tension because it It feels to me like a both and, not an either or.

[25:14] SPEAKER_00:

I agree. I think it's a both and. I think that there needs to be very clear boundaries, like you said, and consequences, but there also has to be a intentional compassion on the part of the teachers to be willing to talk about the things that we are just said, like, what is really going on with this kid? Because when you look at the research on trauma, you understand that for kids who've been exposed to whether it's the situations you mentioned or some sort of abuse at home or lack of food security or whatever, they're in that fight or flight mentality. And so when somebody comes at them, they're gonna lash out because they're just ready to fight. Their amygdala is overstimulated and it's a natural response for them.

[25:59]

So how do we deescalate? And instead, how do we let them know that we're not against them, but we are for them, that we're on the same team? And so one of the things that I've looked at For a number of years is attachment theory and that circle of security and it's focused on parents, but I really believe that we can expand that to all the caring adults within a child's world. Look at us as caring adults as that place of security for kids and then they venture out. They encounter something that triggers them and they start to act out and they might hurt themselves. They might hurt other people.

[26:33]

They might hurt property. How do we bring them back in and let them know, hey, yes, this crazy thing happened or you did this wild thing, but we're still here. We still love you. And let's get you back on track and then bring them back into the fold. And that's a very different way of thinking. And I know for me as an educator and a parent, sometimes I have to talk myself down from the ledge because when a kid's escalating, I can escalate too.

[27:02]

And it's almost like the bigger they get, the bigger I want to get to prove to them that I'm bigger. But I have to instead take a quiet approach and get small almost and remind myself. This is the mantra that I was taught years ago. And I say over and over again, I'm bigger, stronger, wiser, and kind. I'm bigger, stronger, wiser, and kind. And just remember that what the child needs from me at that moment is is to be the bigger person, the stronger person, the wiser person, and kind in that moment to bring them back to a place of safety and security.

[27:37]

Yeah, I think that has a lot of implications for how we do discipline in school, but it gets messy because it's going to take time. And it's instead of just saying, hey, go to the principal's office, it means taking the time for conversation. And one of the biggest things I hear from school personnel is the need for more people. Just more people in the building to be able to handle those kinds of situations.

[28:02] SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, and I love hearing when kids start referring themselves to go and talk to someone and say, hey, you know what? I'm going to blow my top if I don't take a breather here and really get a chance to talk to someone. I love when students have that opportunity. to recognize that i mean i think that shows so much growth and so much understanding on the part of the school about what the student actually needs in that moment to say you know what the most important thing was not that you stayed in math class and finished your test in this moment the most important thing was that you had a chance to talk to an adult who cares about you and who can help you figure out what you're going through and how to deal with that and then get back on track

[28:40] SPEAKER_00:

Agreed. And in that scenario that you mentioned, that reminds me of CASEL, the Collaborative for Academic, Social, and Emotional Learning, and their five competencies for SEL that they've identified being self-awareness, self-management, responsible decision-making, relationship skills, and social awareness. So in that scenario that you just mentioned, I first started thinking, yeah, that's great self-awareness and self-management. So you could really say that's an overlap almost of all five of those competencies and Because in that moment, the child is making a responsible decision. They know that if they stay there, they're going to blow it and that's going to impact their peers. So that's social awareness.

[29:20]

And that's also impacting their relationships in the long run. So yes, I think that anytime that we can provide the support that kids need and empower them to make those decisions for the sake of building themselves up and building up others, the better off we all are.

[29:35] SPEAKER_02:

And that's a kid who we might look at the surface behavior and say, this kid left class without permission. Our first report of this might be that so-and-so was in the hall without a pass or walked out of class. And if we're willing to look deeper and say, okay, what's really going on with this kid and what have we actually taught them that they're acting on that's worth celebrating, that they are maintaining that self-awareness and responding to their own feelings, but in an appropriate way, that's huge.

[30:05] SPEAKER_00:

I think that the other thing when you're talking about what we celebrate in that moment is that we have to keep in mind as educators that the real world looks a lot different than it did 20, 25 years ago. So with the rise of entrepreneurship, with telecommuting, with, you know, just people don't stay in a company for 40 years most of the time now. We want kids to come out of school happy. with the skills that they need to provide for themselves and their family. And like you said, whether that's to go into college or go right into career, and those college and career opportunities look different. Whether it's online learning or online working, they need those self-management skills, those responsible decision-making skills, you know, to be able to be successful.

[30:52]

So I just, I think that it's a paradigm shift in our culture which we haven't fully seen happen in our schools and it goes beyond just integrating technology into practice this really does become part of the way that we see the world and how kids can be successful in the future

[31:12] SPEAKER_02:

So the book is Building People, Social Emotional Learning for Kids, Families, Schools, and Communities. And Tamara, if people want to learn more about the book or learn more about your other work, including the Love in a Big World curriculum, where's the best place for them to go online to find you?

[31:28] SPEAKER_00:

Lovinabigworld.org. That's the best. And also you can follow me on Twitter, Tamara Fyke, or at Lovinabigworld on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, all the socials. And in addition to the curriculum, we do have professional development offerings and student assemblies too. And the book, Building People, is available on Amazon.

[31:49] SPEAKER_02:

Well, Tamara, thank you so much for joining me again on Principal Center Radio. It's been great to speak with you.

[31:53] SPEAKER_00:

Thank you, Justin.

[31:54] Announcer:

Thanks for listening to Principal Center Radio. For more great episodes, subscribe on our website at principalcenter.com slash radio.